Baddest Battleship

[mccavage]

Obviously the Iowa class is the pick of any litter but it is the others that are intriguing.

South Dakotas are actually a bit worse than their near-sisters the Washingtons since the attempt to compact the design resulted in a less habitable ship. Either these ships are pretty good in comparison to any other contender.

Yamato is really a bit of a disappointment given all the absolutes in their favor for size.

Richelieu is an amazingly good ship, very innovative and certainly not harmed by the "americanization" of her anti-air suite coupled with really great 15" mains. In some other comparisons I've seen, actually rates second among the treaty ships.

KGV's are really a pretty nice, well protected ship that ended up under-gunned because the UK never did figure out how to make a good 16" turret. (Nelson and Rodney had a poor ROF and the turrets themselves were too heavy for the bearings resulting in perpetual maintainence issues.)

Vittorio Venetos had that wonderful merger of a great gun and horrible fire control. Can't blame the Italians for trying the Pugilese underwater protection scheme - it just didn't work. Awful anti-air as well.

The Bismarck is always a sore spot for me. Preston calls them something like the most over-rated ship of all time and Conway's is less than awestruck. Really just an upsized Baden of WW1 ilk, they had poor anti air, poor horizontal protection and extremely vulnerable communication/control layout that left Bismarck helpless and toothless in the first 15 minutes of her second and final battle in which she scored no hits. Other than the ability to not sink, this has always seemed to be a pretty mediocre ship. Better than a Veneto but slap a decent 15 or 16 inch weapon suite on a KGV and I'd take it over a Bismarck and I'd expect a Richlieu or Washington to eat Tirpitz for lunch.

[mdiehl]

Other than the ability to not sink, this has always seemed to be a pretty mediocre ship.

I'm not even convinced that Bismarck had that. She took far less of a beating than Prince of Wales and yet lasted only a comparable amount of time.

[The Gnome]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

well first off, you have to understand that the Texas was the first battleship i'd ever visited. I've been a battleship "fanboy" since, oh the age of 8 so this trip (yeah i booked an entire flight and took vacation just do this one thing) had me stoked behind even what a couple of Red Bull's and a quad latte could manage.

Thus my enthusiasm was shall we say, rather excessive to say the least. [:D]

off limits areas? pish posh i say! (and i did) Armed with sword and magic helmut, i began my quest to catalog all that which was the Texas. (ok, actually it was armed with flashlight and disposible camera) Given the rightiousness of my cause it was only a matter of time before the powers that be got tipped off that there was a subversive type running around the ship, "opening up hatches and peeking through doorways" (quote/unquote) Specifically someone saw me attempting to crawl under a metal screen blocking access to Turret III's magazine. (an as-yet, un-restored area of the ship) and ratted on me.

Enter a lovable character who I like to call "General Billy-Bob" (Billy for short) Intercepted in a crew berthing compartment on the Second Deck, there followed a 10 minute session where i got a thorough dressing down, the highlights including a disertation on the dangers of opening hatches and entering off limits areas and the illegalness of forcing open barriers meant to protect the public.

I was then advised in rather strong language not to attempt further intrustions on penalty of being thrown off the ship (not necessarily using the gangway employed to get on), and/or involving the Houston Police dept.

Had "Billy" known that in addition to trying to get into the beforementioned magazine, i'd also climbed on top of two main gun turrets, the main conning tower, sneaked down onto the platform deck to examine more closely the ship's recipricating engine, climbed up onto the upper bridge and last but not least.....climbed up and entered the ship's forward tripod mast to snap a photo from the highest reachable point on the ship......EMT crews might also have required involvement since his veins were already popping dangerously out from his large neck and forhead.

As it was i said sorry, resisted an impulse to salute (he was wearing a nicely authentic officer's uniform) and then proceeded to attempt entry into Turret III's gunhouse, only to be thwarted by an imposingly large padlock. (knew i forgot something in my explorers pack......a lock cutter!) [:'(]

All in all a fun day.

LOL ok, you just better let me know if you come here to visit the New Jersey.... I have to see you in action.

[McNaughton]

The reason why the Bismark lasted so long (Saw a detailed documentary about this) was the fact that the British closed the range very fast, which meant that their shells were not plunging (which caused the greatest damage), but were firing into the side (which just destroyed superstructure, and killed crew). Even without the 16" Guns, the KGV was probably well suited in taking out the Bismark. Had the HMS Hood not have been destroyed at long range (when shots were plunging), the British Squadron could have easily annihalated the Bismark and Prinz Eugen. This was admiral Holland's plan, to close range with the Hood and Prince of Wales to the point where their heavy guns (8x 15", 10x 14" plus 6 destroyers vs. 8x 15", 8x 8") would just shatter the two German vessels into useless hulks (like what was eventually done). It was a lucky hit that sank the Hood and saved the Bismark.

The British did this during the Battle of Martapan (SP?), where the battleships closed in and annihalated 3 Italian Heavy Cruisers by first devestating their superstructure and eliminated their ability to fight back.

[Tenzan]

Looking at it from the perspective of fleet support for surface combat units, I tend to favor any U.S. BB in a potency comparisons..The U.S. fleet had the iron and oil to put any ship wherever it wanted in top condition, and keep it there for as long as required.


But, all that aside..I feel the 'fast battleship' class boats are the real underdogs in the BB sum-up..They were all great ships, all of them

[JohnK]

ORIGINAL: mccavage
The Bismarck is always a sore spot for me. Preston calls them something like the most over-rated ship of all time and Conway's is less than awestruck. Really just an upsized Baden of WW1 ilk, they had poor anti air, poor horizontal protection and extremely vulnerable communication/control layout that left Bismarck helpless and toothless in the first 15 minutes of her second and final battle in which she scored no hits. Other than the ability to not sink, this has always seemed to be a pretty mediocre ship. Better than a Veneto but slap a decent 15 or 16 inch weapon suite on a KGV and I'd take it over a Bismarck and I'd expect a Richlieu or Washington to eat Tirpitz for lunch.

Yep....I have a friend who currently is helping to design the DDX and LCS, in addition to being a long tine wargamer and naval history scholar, and he thinks the Bismarck was a piece of crap. I love how Preston put the Bismarck on the cover of his "worst ships" book.

Lots of Kriegsmarine fanboys out there who believe all the "Nazi Superweapon!!!!" nonsense of lame History Channel documentaries, however.

[UncleBuck]

The Bismarck was the BADDEST ship for what it was designed for. It was never intended to challenge the Royal Navy. It was supposed to be a heavily armed and fast Commerce raider. If it had broken into the sea lanes or gotten to eh southern Atlantic or IO it would have been tough to stop. It would have been stopped but what would that have done to the Home Fleet and the real worry from the U-boats? The Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gnesinaeu and the other ships of the North Atlantic fleet tied up a great deal of British and other allied forces. They didn't sink much but caused serious worry. How many air attacks did Coastal and Bomber command put up to Kill the North Sea Fleet? I do not think the Bismarck was the Greatest Battle ship ever made but I think it was more of a BC and at that it was Nasty.

UB

[hithere]

Lots of Kriegsmarine fanboys out there who believe all the "Nazi Superweapon!!!!" nonsense of lame History Channel documentaries, however.

I am def not a Kriegsmarine fanboys, but I always thought that the Bismarck was a superbattleship. I mean....Johnny Hortan even sang a song about it for pete's sake!!!! then a friend told me about combinedfleet.com . needless to say i was shocked. so i started reading somethings and found that it was not nearly has good as history leads us to believe. NOT saying it was avg....i still believe it was a very good ship, just not the end all that i thought it was

[mdiehl]

The Bismarck was the BADDEST ship for what it was designed for. It was never intended to challenge the Royal Navy. It was supposed to be a heavily armed and fast Commerce raider.

I do not think it was the baddest ship for the purpose of commerce raiding. IMO the "Pocket BBs" seem to me to better fit that description. And judging by success rates the notion of a "fast commerce raider" seens flawed. The best surface-ship commerece raider was Kormoran, IIRC, judging by the results. If Bismarck's purpose wasn't really to stand up to the RN, then the Kiregsmarine would have better been served by ships with lighter armament, lighter weight, more fuel, more speed, and more stores. It doesn't take 15" to penetrate the hull of a freighter.

IMO, Bismarck was supposed to be a prestige BB to rival the BBs of the Royal Navy. Otherwise something better at commerce raiding would have been built in her stead. Kudos for killing Hood before the latter could close the range, but even that wasn't really a case of Bismarck facing "the best" that the opposition could field.

[Mr.Frag]

IMO, Bismarck was supposed to be a prestige BB to rival the BBs of the Royal Navy. Otherwise something better at commerce raiding would have been built in her stead. Kudos for killing Hood before the latter could close the range, but even that wasn't really a case of Bismarck facing "the best" that the opposition could field.

The poor Hood ... doomed by design ... really ... the poor thing was a CL with BB guns stuck on top.

[Hornblower]

This is going to turn into the Iowa vs. Yamato again isn't it? [:-]

[JohnK]

If Hood could have had a total rebuilding like the Queen Elizabeths it could have been a credible ship...it also was a poor design...but of course was a World War I-built ship.

A design has to be evaluated in terms of the technology, naval knowledge, and resources of the time; the Bismarck was a very poor design by that criteria.

[mdiehl]

The poor Hood ... doomed by design ... really ... the poor thing was a CL with BB guns stuck on top.

CL or CA?

[JohnK]

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

This is going to turn into the Iowa vs. Yamato again isn't it? [:-]

As sure as the sun rises in the morning

[Hipper]

Doomed by the treasury more like
in the early 20's she was great combining the armour protection of a queen elizabeth class battleship with the speed of the fastest battlecruisers she was in fact the first fast battleship.

however in the 1940's she was a very old lady indeed and was long overdue for her refit, planned for 1939 - 1940 I believe.

however she had a huge influence on german and italian ship design criteria I can't remember which german "pocket battleship commander called her the terror of the german pre war fleet exercises but not bad for a 20 year old ship

besides she may still have had the legs on the Bizmark in 1941 [;)]

cheers

[hithere]

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

This is going to turn into the Iowa vs. Yamato again isn't it? [:-]

ofcourse not!! everyone knows that the Iowa was better!![:)] [;)] [:D] [:'(]

[Mr.Frag]

CL or CA?

Had they armored certain key areas better, I'd say CA, but I think the results speak for themselves. Too busy trying to make her fast to make her last.

[Hornblower]

ORIGINAL: hithere

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

This is going to turn into the Iowa vs. Yamato again isn't it? [:-]

ofcourse not!! everyone knows that the Iowa was better!![:)] [;)] [:D] [:'(]

Toss a little more gas on the fire why dont you [:D]

[hithere]

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

ORIGINAL: hithere

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

This is going to turn into the Iowa vs. Yamato again isn't it? [:-]

ofcourse not!! everyone knows that the Iowa was better!![:)] [;)] [:D] [:'(]

Toss a little more gas on the fire why dont you [:D]

hehehehehe

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Had they armored certain key areas better, I'd say CA, but I think the results speak for themselves. Too busy trying to make her fast to make her last.

Hood was no CA. She was just old. She was also too close.