Can the map of Australia be improved?

[jrcar]

Pre war NT exported:

cattle,
frozen meat and by products
peanuts,
some tropical fruit

some minerals as well I think (zinc?)


manpower was very tight, as war clouds loomed from 1939 a lot of southern labour was imported to build the military airfield and the forts.

Cheers

Rob

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

I'll add my vote to the new Australia Map.

Also can someone tell me what the Northern Territory produced in the 1940's?
In WITP Darwin chugs out a substantial 300 resources.

Just looked at Aus. government website.

The population of the entire Northern Territory is listed as 8,000. of the then 7 million odd Australians. Must have been working hard.

They also provided ~1,000 enlisted men out of a total of 726,000+. So they had no manpower either.

Here's the site. Nice enlistment stats.
http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/enlistment/ww2.htm

Cheers
Top Cat

[Jim D Burns]

While I'm all for historical accuracy, the problem with cutting up the railway links is then we somehow need to simulate the local shipping used to keep western and northern cities in supply. Military cargo ships aside, I'm sure there were hundreds if not thousands of smaller commerce vessels used to effectively 'act' as the railway link to Darwin, Derby, etc.

Wouldn't it be better to allow a rail line in place of roads to simulate the sipping, rather than tie up military shipping that was used for other things during the war?

I'm actually torn on this one, since I usually fall on the side of historical accuracy over ease of play, but commerce shipping isn't a part of the original game design. So perhaps in this instance using a rail link with a note in the manual about what it is simulating might be the better solution. After all including a bunch of small commerce ships that simply sail between the east and north for 1500 turns or so would be tedious to the extreme. Basic supply should be maintained via rail with military stockpiling brought by the military cargo vessels at the players option.

Or perhaps create some invisible sea rail line connection that would accomplish the same task that a normal rail link would. At sea the line wouldn't be able to be cut by ground troops, so perhaps that would be a more accurate representation of the civilian commerce fleets of small vessels.

Jim

[jrcar]

Definately not hundreds... maybe 5-10

The issue is you can assume the population (which isn't modelled) can be handled by the small coastal shipping(which isn't modelled). But as soon as you put a military unit there you need to keep it resupplied,and that should have an impact on your current shipping because the coastal shipping would not have been enough.

I just can't emphasis enough the remoteness... even today. I know of been to all these places (I was an Army survey and intelligence officer). I also know a bit about the period history of the area. There is good reason why the only towns of any importance are on the coast, the sea is the highway in this area.

Cheers

Rob

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

While I'm all for historical accuracy, the problem with cutting up the railway links is then we somehow need to simulate the local shipping used to keep western and northern cities in supply. Military cargo ships aside, I'm sure there were hundreds if not thousands of smaller commerce vessels used to effectively 'act' as the railway link to Darwin, Derby, etc.

Wouldn't it be better to allow a rail line in place of roads to simulate the sipping, rather than tie up military shipping that was used for other things during the war?

I'm actually torn on this one, since I usually fall on the side of historical accuracy over ease of play, but commerce shipping isn't a part of the original game design. So perhaps in this instance using a rail link with a note in the manual about what it is simulating might be the better solution. After all including a bunch of small commerce ships that simply sail between the east and north for 1500 turns or so would be tedious to the extreme. Basic supply should be maintained via rail with military stockpiling brought by the military cargo vessels at the players option.

Or perhaps create some invisible sea rail line connection that would accomplish the same task that a normal rail link would. At sea the line wouldn't be able to be cut by ground troops, so perhaps that would be a more accurate representation of the civilian commerce fleets of small vessels.

Jim

[Ron Saueracker]

I'm all for alternating the map and isolating the northern bases. It will make the Allied player rethink any move north into DEI from Darwin. I like it! Give all that allied shipping a job.[:)]

[stubby331]

G'day Brownie,

Great work on the modified map. Can someone post a screenshot of the current WITP Australian map so I can have a gander @ it for comparision?

I'm holding off buying WITP until the boxed CD comes out (I recently bought HTTR and its keeping me occupied)....

[Platoonist]

Gd'day Stubby. Here is the WiTP map of Australia. Just included it as a link since I didn't wanna clog up the board with a slow-loading graphic.

http://ruhkarv.homestead.com/files/Aus.jpg

Glad to have the game but over time I would love the see anything that makes the overall map more accurate.

[stubby331]

Thanks Platoonist.

Hmmm... I think Brownie's map is an improvement. There have been mutterings for a while (way before WITP went gold) regards the shortcomings of the current Australian map.

With regard Jims point;
"Military cargo ships aside, I'm sure there were hundreds if not thousands of smaller commerce vessels used to effectively 'act' as the railway link to Darwin, Derby, etc."

I think you need to look at it in an Australian context... the population of these remote peacetime communities numbered in the hundreds at most. I't didnt take much shipping to keep them supplied in peacetime. But, if you wanted to build a military base the only practical way it could be done is by ship. There was simply no infrastructure in the North west of western Australia, nothing past Geraldton, we are talking bad gravel roads stretching over arid rough scrubland for thousands of kilometres... no rail, no towns, no people, nothing. It certainly would be a challenge to build something up in these areas, giving them rail is a copout and makes it too easy for the allied player.

At the other end of the scale Albany (in the southwest) had a substantial natural port, good transport links to perth and did historically homeport American subs. Albany is typical of what was available in the southern states (apart freom the excellent natural port of course). Am I right in understanding that most small-meduim southern coastal towns didnt get a look in?


In the main I hold the responsiveness of Matrix in high regard. But, I think Matrix long ago put the question of Australia in the 2 hard basket.... we are, after all only talking about a minority of gamers we actually give a toss whether the Australian map is populated with anything much besides the bare minimum. (mostly Australians I figure). Hell, I'm still getting over the fact we had a win with the Beaufighter Fighter/bomber question (and that was over 2 years ago).....

My 2 cents worth... the amount of detail in this game is amazing. I would love it if Matrix did include historically correct ports/towns and transport infrastructure in OZ.

But I dont think they will...

[Raverdave]

ORIGINAL: stubby331



In the main I hold the responsiveness of Matrix in high regard. But, I think Matrix long ago put the question of Australia in the 2 hard basket.... we are, after all only talking about a minority of gamers we actually give a toss whether the Australian map is populated with anything much besides the bare minimum. (mostly Australians I figure).

But I dont think they will...

Actually, Matrix did respond to the (Aussie) testers during the build stage of the game, when the map of Australia originally didn't have Alice Springs.

[Platoonist]

Seems odd that Australia's largest and most navigable river (the Darling) was left out. Perhaps Matrix figured no Japanese player would ever get that far south?

[stubby331]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

ORIGINAL: stubby331



In the main I hold the responsiveness of Matrix in high regard. But, I think Matrix long ago put the question of Australia in the 2 hard basket.... we are, after all only talking about a minority of gamers we actually give a toss whether the Australian map is populated with anything much besides the bare minimum. (mostly Australians I figure).

But I dont think they will...

Actually, Matrix did respond to the (Aussie) testers during the build stage of the game, when the map of Australia originally didn't have Alice Springs.

Hi Dave.
Yup, I had considered the Alice decision. Rated on its own merits, I dont really regard it as a significant concession. Call me harsh (or shirley [:'(] )....

[akbrown]

Hi all,

Please keep in mind that my first go at a revised Australian map is quite rough. The rail lines are still only approximate as I hand drew them (quickly). I need to make up a new version with more accurate terrain, rail routes etc.

In reply to some comments:

Regarding the justification for adding a rail/highway line to the northern bases to simplify the supply of those bases, I don't agree. I think that if they were primarily supplied by sea (and I don't actually know if this is the case although others above say so), then that should be the way it is in the game as well. After all, there are a LOT of other bases on the map that need to be supplied by sea, why make an exception for just a few bases in Northern Australia?

Regarding the Darling river - it is long but only has a small flow, especially when compared to the great rivers of Asia. I have only put in a few Australian rivers, and only big ones, although again I have mainly based this on guesswork!

[DrewMatrix]

Shouldn't we first ask the Australians to tidy things up a bit? Then we can deal with the map . . .

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

It's port size 8 to get torps, 9 to get mines.

Unless you have a tender (AS or MLE) that is ...

So, Make it a smaller port but have a AS or MLE ship in port at start up, Manuel updated with a Note that the base starts out as a sub base if don't remove tender.

Or simply create the base and leave it up to gamers to pit a tender there to make it useable as a sub base..

[akbrown]

I have started to make a second map with some more accurate terrain and rail placement.

I noticed while doing this that some of the towns/bases are innacurately placed. Sydney, for example, is too far North on the East coast, and some other places are also in the wrong spot by 1-3 hexes, including Alice Springs. Hopefully I will soon have the second version of the map done, so I can put it here for comment.

Regarding extra bases, we now have the following new bases suggested:

- Albany in WA (good port)
- Coen in the York peninsula (air base)
- Exmouth Gulf in WA (sub base)

Do we have a knowledgable person here who can provide some evidence that these bases were large and important enough to add to the map? Are there any others that should be added? I believe that there were a number of northern bases set up during the war that could be added as dot bases at the start of the campaign game, for possible buildup later. But we don't want to add too many of course.

Anyone still willing to help with the research, especially for Australian bases?

Also, I think that it would be a goode idea to add some production capacity to New Zealand. They seem to have nothing there, and so are wholly dependent on supply convoys. I am sure that NZ could at least partly supply its home forces during the war, or am I wrong? Any Kiwis on this board?

[Cmdrcain]

On the Bit about Darwin:

In my game vs Japanese AI, I've evac malayan units and some dutch units down to Darwin... which Boasts now a 290 Air Support capability.

Now thats quite alot of air support in what seems a plsce of limited ways to transport into..

I don't through Plan to keep it that way, some will be passed on to Pt Moresby, But just mentioning it in the context of that some say Rails to darwin allowing ( I guess) over land supplies/support movement isn't realistic..

Oh yeah I have 190 Planes, refugees from Malaya and some of Dutch Up near fallen Singapoer bases... KB comes down near darwin It will be fun!

[:D]

[jrcar]

akbrown apart from Albany the other bases weren't much... and still aren't. I think Exmouth had a single jetty at the time, and its not a great anchorage (but thats not a problem except in cyclone season). I visted the military facilities at Exmouth about 15 years ago, its still used for submarine communications, and there is a bare base there, but not much of a port.

But having them as hexes that you could build (in Northern Australia most places can be turned into decent airfields if you expend enough effort, its mostly flat) is a resonable compromise. i wouldn't suggest any others.


Cmdrcain Darwin did have a rail/road (well dirt track) link to the south, but only for 2/3rds of the way. The middle third was a dirt track only. A lot of effort was spent keeping it open. But it was able to support the big build up in Darwin, but still alot of heavy stuff came from sea. if PM had of been taken then I don't think Darwin would have been viable supported just by that rail line. As an example until Sept 1943 fuel could only be transported on the railway line in drums, as the northen segment (into Darwin) didn't have any tank cars (although seven tank cars were improvised on ballast hoppers in late 1942). Therefore most bulk fuel had to go via sea.


Cheers

Rob

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: jrcar

akbrown apart from Albany the other bases weren't much... and still aren't. I think Exmouth had a single jetty at the time, and its not a great anchorage (but thats not a problem except in cyclone season). I visted the military facilities at Exmouth about 15 years ago, its still used for submarine communications, and there is a bare base there, but not much of a port.

But having them as hexes that you could build (in Northern Australia most places can be turned into decent airfields if you expend enough effort, its mostly flat) is a resonable compromise. i wouldn't suggest any others.


Cmdrcain Darwin did have a rail/road (well dirt track) link to the south, but only for 2/3rds of the way. The middle third was a dirt track only. A lot of effort was spent keeping it open. But it was able to support the big build up in Darwin, but still alot of heavy stuff came from sea. if PM had of been taken then I don't think Darwin would have been viable supported just by that rail line. As an example until Sept 1943 fuel could only be transported on the railway line in drums, as the northen segment (into Darwin) didn't have any tank cars (although seven tank cars were improvised on ballast hoppers in late 1942). Therefore most bulk fuel had to go via sea.


Cheers

Rob

Heh...

That 290 Aviation is now a 492 Aviation Support...

Means I could Spot 400-close to 500 Planes at Darwin I suppose....

Realistic?

I only salvaged about 170 planes from Malaya and got The p-40's and b17's out of phillipines...

B17's at Darwin could strike whole DEI I think and surpress
Japanese use... If i move 300-400 planes there any TF of Japanese will be sunk..

Where did i get aviation support? I think some have overlooked malaya and DEI have quite a bit, if you can get it out you have Support

[stubby331]

Had a bit of a poke round on the web. Came up with a great interactive Map website.

This particular page shows an Admiralty map of Albany's Princess Royal Harbour and King George Sound - with Depths! Great Thanks to the National Libary of Australia.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.map-t36-e-cd

[Raverdave]

Ok, one of the best sites to got to on the web for this kind of info is http://home.st.net.au/~dunn.

[akbrown]

Here is an updated version of my proposed Australia map for WitP. I have made the following changes from the first version:

- Modified some of the terrain placement, and drawn the rail routes a bit more accurately.

- I also noticed, while redrawing the rail ines, that some of the Cities/towns on the current map are innacurately placed. Sydney, for example, on the current map is about three hexes "North" from where it is supposed to be. All of the other bases on the East coast are also misplaced, so I moved them all to a more accurate position.

- Some adjustments have been made to the terrain. I have drawn in "cultivated" terrain in areas that look like they have good road/rail infrastructure that is not represented by the main rail routes already.

- I have added a dot base for Coen, in the York peninsula. I want to do some more research into the northern Australian bases, but this is an example of what I think could represent the bases that were built during the war. There should only be a few of these bases added.

- I have added Albany, in Western Australia.

As before, all comments are welcome, especially from anyone who has some information about Australian bases during the war.