Why was Patton so great?

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Von Rom
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
ORIGINAL: Von Rom
Culiacan Mexico:

Excellent summary [:)]

And of course you make very valid points.

You are not stirrig the pot, when what you say is true.

Most of all the early German victories; most of all the fame the German armies gained; much of the reputation gained by German generals; was done against weaker, poorer, and inferior forces in Poland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, France, Norway, etc, etc. . .

Cheers!
In my previous post, I was perhaps being a little more critical than I truly fell.

Regarding early victories, the German reserve units called up in 1939/1940 were not much better than the French reserves, but the combat and operation experience gained by these men in there victories over inferior force was invaluable. I believe this is why the German units became very capable (1940-43): a core unit of competent experienced NCOs and junior officers. They made mistakes and adapted, becoming very good in the process, unlike the upper leadership which made numerous mistakes and never seemed to change.

As for fame, I agree for the most part. The fame of the upper crust of German leaderships came from beating hapless opponents, yet when these advantages were lost… they faltered.

I was perhaps being a bit over general in my description, but I think you are essentially correct - German troops learned a great deal in their early conquests, and therefore, were far better prepared when they attacked France in 1940.

You are also correct, I think, in believing that just comparing numbers between opposing forces is not enough to define which is the better force, especially in the Battle of France in 1940.

When an old house is given a fresh coat of paint, it may look new, but it is still an old, ramshackle house. This is the state the French army was in when Germany attacked in 1940.

Because of France's "Maginot" mentality, its poor leadership, its out-moded tactics, its "defeatist/defensive" mindset, its poorly trained troops, its lack of aircraft pilots, etc, France was defeated before the Germans even attacked in 1940. It was, as you rightly state, a modern, well-trained army (Germany) pitted against a less modern, less trained army (France).

Here are just a few thoughts:

* In France, most of the Allied armies were never engaged against the Germans. While there was some fighting, essentially German armoured speaheads merely bypassed most resistence and raced for the channel to trap the Allied Armies. With the bulk of Allied forces forward in Belgium and without any operational reserves, the French were unable to contain the main German offensive pouring through the lightly-defended Ardennes region. By the evening of 15 May, the Germans had ruptured the Allied front completely. By 20 May, the German panzer corps had reached the English Channel and had successfully entrapped the Allied armies in Belgium. After the frantic withdrawal of the Allied forces through Dunkirk, the rest of the campaign was a stroll for the Germans. Although there were some initial tenacious resistance, the French defences soon collapsed. On 22 June 1940, just six weeks after the invasion, France capitulated.

* In essence, the French military degenerated into a tragic state of inertia after the Great War. In this state of inertia, the French military minds were closed to new innovations and new tactics. Technological advances, which had made possible faster planes, heavily armoured tanks and radio communication, were received with much scepticism. Other than the conversion of five infantry divisions and a cavalry division into light mechanised divisions, the French military of 1940 had virtually shown no progress since the last war.

* For France, the Great War was practically a brutal demonstration on the effectiveness of modern firepower. In that war, France lost 1.4 million soldiers. Another 4.2 million were seriously maimed. Following these terrible losses, post-war France was bent on abandoning the philosophy of offensive à outrance in favour of a more balanced emphasis on defence. The French were determined that the holocaust of 1914 to 1918 caused by excessive emphasis on the offensive should never again be repeated in future wars. Moreover, the 10-month battle at Verdun in 1916 had convinced the French that a continuous line of trenches and an immense amount of firepower could hold out against any attack. These lessons had convinced post-war France that defence was the only feasible strategy, not only to win the next war, but also to prevent the mindless slaughter of her youths.

Consequently, the terms of military service were reduced in 1921, 1923 and 1928 to two years, 19 months and one year respectively. This effectively halved France's standing army from 41 divisions in 1922 to only 20 divisions in 1928. With only a small standing army, the French army could only hope to hold back any surprise German invasion while awaiting the mobilisation of its reservists.

* France was prepared to go to war with doctrines formulated based on her WW I experience. In short, the French military in 1940 was organized, equipped and trained to fight a war similar to that of the western front in 1918. Naturally, the French doctrines, which emphasised static defence and "methodical battle", were ill-suited and too rigid for the hectic and often intense pace of mobile warfare that the Germans unleashed upon them in 1940.

* An indispensable part of the French doctrine was its step-by-step approach to battle, termed the "methodical battle". The "methodical battle" closely resembled the WW I procedures. Under this method, all units and weapons were carefully marshalled and then employed in combat according to strictly schedules timetables and phase lines. Under the "methodical battle", decision-making was centralised at higher level command so as to co-ordinate the actions of the numerous subordinate units. There was little need for decentralisation and lower-level officers were expected to display obedience rather than initiative and flexibility. Therefore, the French military leaders were simply too slow to respond to "Lightning" warfare.

* After siphoning off a disproportionate share from the military's coffers during the lean depression years of the 1930s, the Maginot Line turned out to be no more than an engineering feat of questionable military value in the 1940 Campaign. The trouble with the Maginot Line was that it was in the wrong place. In the 1940 Campaign, nearly HALF of the French Army was deployed in support of the Line, and they remained there only to be bypassed by the Germans attacking through the Ardennes. Therefore, the German forces never engaged HALF of the French troops that were available.

* Unfortunately, the quality of the French soldiers in 1940 was a far cry from that of their forefathers who had died willingly by the thousands in the infernos of the Great War. Poor training, inadequate battle preparation, inept leadership and complacency resulting from the "Maginot Line complex" had adversely drained the morale, cohesion and discipline of the troops.

* The key difference between the two countries was not in the quantity or the quality of their tanks, but rather, the tactical employment of these tanks. Although, France recognised the tank as one of the most important weapons indroduced since WW I, they firmly believed that the primary function of the tank was to augment the firepower of the infantry. The first two French armoured divisions were created in January 1940, while a third was only added in April 1940. Unfortunately, these hastily formed divisions suffered a lack of equipment and training. Not only were these tanks dispersed in "Penny Packets", but they also lacked radios and co-ordination.

* As with the tanks, the French failed to develop a viable doctrine for the deployment of airplanes. Little thought had been given to air co-operation with the ground forces. Probably, the most serious fault with the French air doctrine during the inter-war period was its failure to appreciate the importance of dive-bombers despite the lessons from the Polish Campaign. As at May 1940, France possessed a mere 50 dive-bombers.

* While France had a large number of aircraft, there were not enough aircrews or ground crews to man them. Thus the air force was not organized for battle. The regular air force had only half again as many units as during its peacetime nadir in 1932. As the battle opened, 119 of 210 squadrons were ready for action on the decisive northeastern front. The others were reequipping or stationed in the colonies. The 119 squadrons could bring into action only one-fourth of the aircraft available. These circumstances put the Allied air forces in a position of severe numerical inferiority vis-à-vis the Luftwaffe.

* As a consequence of the political struggles between the officer corps and the political left, between the army and the air force, and between the air force and the government, the French Air Force entered combat with an incomplete ground infrastructure, insufficient personnel to man its aircraft, and a doctrine so completely at variance with the army's doctrine that the two services were destined to fight largely independent wars.

* Finally, the French leadership was horribly demoralized. For example, in the book, "The Collapse of the Third Republic", the author notes that the top two leaders of France were convinced of the ultimate defeat of France by Germany long before it became feasible for Germany. And of course civilian leadership was completely lacking both during Hilter's move into the Rhineland, and later during the German occupation of Austria and Czechoslovakia. In the 30's, both far left and far right forces were convinced that the Third Republic had to be taken down and were actively undermining it. Finally, there were many French (in positions of power) who welcomed the German occupation. Apparently it was widely thought that rule under a German tyranny was better than under the old Republic.

Ultimately, the French defeat in the 1940 Campaign is attributed to her ill-conceived strategy which was based on fallacious assumptions, her poorly-led military forces, and her obsolete tactical and operational-level doctrines which were inadequate for the mobile war Germany thrust upon her in 1940.
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

As an ex-member of the Patton thread, I have never-the-less felt driven to re-post some comments I made which are buried amongst the vitriol on page 11 which might help the current discussion on Liebstandarte.
Most SS units had titles. 1st SS Panzer Division was actually called "1ST SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler". It grew out of his personal body guard unit.

"Der Fuhrer" in SS Terms referred to the Panzergrenadier Regiment no 4, which fought in 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich, a completely different formation.

Liebstandarte (that's 1st SS Panzer) did indeed come south at the very end of December 1944. However, a second feature of your arguments is a lack of perspective (exactly what you accuse me of). SS Liebstandarte had by this time been in action since the beginning of the Bulge. These attacks were carried out by two Kampfgruppes. One made up of around 30-40 tanks and some Panzergrenadiers, the other from what was left of the Divisions Panzergrenadiers. Some of the Divisional Jagdpanzers also seem to have taken part. All in all, the strength was maybe two Battalions worth of Panzergrenadiers and about 50 armoured vehicles. In percentage terms thats about a third of the divisional infantry and a quarter of it's tanks. It's artillery was hamstrung by a lack of ammunition.


I calculated the strength of this unit to be about 1400 Panzergrenadiers and 40-50 armoured vehicles. Jochen Peiper took no part in this action.

Regards,
IronDuke
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Golf33

According to J-P. Pallud, The Battle of the Bulge: Then and Now, 1.SS-Pz.Div. was assigned to 5.Pz.A. on 28 December after being savagely mauled in the fighting of the northern sector. It was assigned to Decker's XXXIX (39) Pz.Korps, which was to attack from the East in the direction Eschweiler-Lutrebois. To quote from Pallud on the condition of the Korps:
On the eve of the operation against the corridor, the forces comprising the eastern pincer directed on Assenois were even more disorganised than those on the west. The 1. SS-Panzer-Division had lost most of its striking power in the Kampfgruppe Peiper venture and the remaining units had become bogged down moving south across the main lines of communication feeding the divisions fighting to the west. The 167. Volks-Grenadier-Division had experienced a number of problems assembling for the attack as its units had detrained far from the area, some of them east of the Rhine! Although the two divisions were to be supported in the attack by the Panzer-Lehr-Division's Kampgruppe 901 and F.S.Rgt. 15 of the 5. Fallschirm-Jäger-Division, in the line south-east of the town, the offensive value of these units was very much lessened by the losses they had sustained in the fighting so far. The assorted armour of 1. SS=Panzer-Division, extricated from its service with 6. Panzer-Armee, included those Tigers from the regiment's attached s.SS-Pz.Abt. 501 and the few panzers of SS.Pz.Rgt 1 that had not moved north of the Ambleve with Kampfgruppe Peiper. These presumably included a large proportion of the Panzer IVs belonging to the regiment's 7. Kompanie, and, in the same way, a sizeable number of the Jagdpanzer IV/70s of SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 1. Added to these were the remaining Panzer IVs of a company assigned to the Panzer-Lehr-Division's Kampfgruppe 901.

From Jentz, Panzertruppen vol II, we get the starting strength of 1.SS-Pz.Div (e.g. prior to the destruction of KG Peiper):
SS-Pz.Rgt. 1
s.SS-Pz.Abt.501: 45 PzVI
I.: 37 PzIV(lg), 42 PzV, 4 LlakpzIV(2V), 4 FlakpzIV(37)
3 Dec 44

Peiper took basically the whole SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 with him, so what you're looking at there is most of a single company of PzIVs, most of two companies of PzJg IV/70s, and a handful of PzVI. Add to this whatever was left of the single company of PzIVs that comprised the tank strength of KG 901 at the start of the battle (e.g. for the initial attack) and you can see that the total is something like a single understrength battalion of mixed PzIV and PzJg IV/70 with a few Tigers thrown in.

Of course none of these came into contact with Thrid Army until after it had reached Bastogne, so it has no bearing on Patton's performance in the drive to relieve the town.

Regards
33

33,

Do you recommend Jentz? It's been on my Amazon wish list for quite a while. What sort of detail are we talking about inside it?

Regards,
IronDuke
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Kevinugly »

Sorry this has taken some time to post but I wanted to produce a definitive answer as to the activities (if any) and the location of the Leibstandarte after 23rd December 1944. Once Peiper's KG had run out of fuel and heavy ammunition at La Gleize the remnants abandoned their tanks and heavy weapons and made their way back to the Divisional positions around Wanne early on the 25th (Charles B. MacDonald - 'The Battle of the Bulge' - p.463). Here they remained until 1st January 1945 when they were withdrawn to positions in the rear (Gordon Williamson - 'The Blood Soaked Soil' - p.174).

However, this doesn't answer exactly who the 35th Division ran into south-east of Bastogne at the end of December. Ordered to take Bastotgne, Manteuffel put together two large battlegroups. One of these consisted of 167th Volksgrenadier Division, the 3rd Panzergrenadier Division and the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade. The latter was reinforced by a small Kampfgruppe (battalion size) scraped together from the Leibstandarte with a motley assortment of some 50 armoured vehicles that were either repairs or replacements (MacDonald - p.606). I believe this explains the use of the name 'Der Fuhrer' in the divisional history as well as the erroneous belief that the Leibstandarte was heavily involved in the fighting around Bastogne. As I said earlier, the best that they could have managed was a few 'ad hoc' units - as it turns out they could barely scrape together one and that subordinated to another unit.
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

At Sedan, the cream of the German Army with the full support of the Luftwaffe face second rate French reserve units. German mechanized tactics relied heavily on the concept of “concentration of force” and Erich von Manstein plan was based on the belief that not only would Sedan bring this force where it was least expected, but because of this face a lesser foe.

In 1928 Seeckt published Thoughts of a Soldier (1928). In this book he questioned the value of huge conscript armies and predicted "the whole future of warfare appears to me to lie in the employment of mobile armies, relatively small but of high quality, and rendered distinctly more effective by the addition of aircraft…” Heinz Guderian's book Atchung, Panzer further illustrated the need to concentrate the mechanized force in one force and focus it on a single point: “Mass not driblets”.

The Germans believed that high quality combined arms mobile forces were what counted; and the number of tanks, men, and guns was meaningless if not used effectively. Quality and good tactics can beat numbers, especially if those numbers are handicapped by low experience, morale, leadership, etc.

The German victory in 1940 is that of a modern military over one that was not. Yet years later when face with opponents who now had adopted similar tactics… German fortunes changed. The advantages needed for victory were long gone.

If we continue to debate in such pleasant terms, I think Vic is going to kick our a%^ of this thread, so lets turn up the heat a little shall we? [;)]
At Sedan, the cream of the German Army with the full support of the Luftwaffe face second rate French reserve units. German mechanized tactics relied heavily on the concept of “concentration of force” and Erich von Manstein plan was based on the belief that not only would Sedan bring this force where it was least expected, but because of this face a lesser foe.

Absolutely, so the German plan concentrated their strength at the enemy's weakness, sounds like a recipe for genius to me. As I said:
Therefore, the reason the German defeat of France was one of the finest victories of it's type, was that they created the conditions for the victory themselves. They correctly anticipated the battle plan of the enemy, (The Breda variant), then struck along the Meuse in overwhelming strength, massing their own forces (land and air) to create a battlefield on which they did have superiority, in the middle of a war in which they didn't.


The original plan for the west (changed when some German officer carrying a copy crashlanded in Belgium) called for a traditional sweep through Belgium ala Schliefen. Of course, a first class plan only allowed superior doctrines and troop quality to affect the battlefield at the crucial point, so shouldn't be underestimated in the scheme of things.
In 1928 Seeckt published Thoughts of a Soldier (1928). In this book he questioned the value of huge conscript armies and predicted "the whole future of warfare appears to me to lie in the employment of mobile armies, relatively small but of high quality, and rendered distinctly more effective by the addition of aircraft…” Heinz Guderian's book Atchung, Panzer further illustrated the need to concentrate the mechanized force in one force and focus it on a single point: “Mass not driblets”.

Good point, but the Wehrmacht was ultimately beaten by a huge conscript army in Russia.

At Kursk we see all the traditional elements of German doctrine in a concentration aiming at encirclement, but it failed, because ultimately the Operational plan was flawed. The battle was unwinnable. Likewise, Operation Blau carried all the hallmarks of German doctrine, but failed because the plan called for too few to do too much, in probably the wrong order. Better doctrine does not save a poor plan, and better trained forces do not defeat the big battalions for ever. In the second world war, German operational doctrine was never bettered, and the best of their forces stood out until early/mid 44. However, this merely lengthened the war, not change the result.

Sedan stands out because Manstein correctly anticipated the enmy response to a feint on the right flank. He then concentrated the best he had at a juncture in the enemy line which he felt would be poorly defended. Once through, the best of the Allied armies were suddenly travelling into a huge trap, their communications severed. I don't see where this doesn't qualify for genius.
The Germans believed that high quality combined arms mobile forces were what counted; and the number of tanks, men, and guns was meaningless if not used effectively. Quality and good tactics can beat numbers, especially if those numbers are handicapped by low experience, morale, leadership, etc.

Yes they did, but they weren't impervious to mistakes. There is also a threshold in relative force sizes below which quality can only do so much. I would also be reluctant to credit the Germans with too much mobility. Only around 20% of the German force at it's peak in June 1941 was motorised or mechanised.
The Russian Forces which destroyed Army Group Centre in 1944, or the Allied forces that followed the Germans across France in 1944 had far more mobility. Most German soldiers marched into battle, their supplies carried on horseback.
The German victory in 1940 is that of a modern military over one that was not. Yet years later when face with opponents who now had adopted similar tactics… German fortunes changed. The advantages needed for victory were long gone.

1940 is probably a fair assessment, although had the Germans followed their original plan, a stalemate was the most likely outcome. It is in this that Manstein's plan comes to the fore. The British Expeditionary force executed the most difficult of manouevres, a fighting withdrawal, all the way back to Dunkirk, so there were substantial elements in the Allied forces capable of giving the Germans a hard time. The Germans may well have won regardless, bearing in mind the patchy state of french morale and training, and the dreadful inertia that emanated from the top down. However, Manstein's plan gave the Germans an operational edge.

Regards,
IronDuke
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
In my opinion, German commanders as a group are overrated by most people…
I'd take the opposite track to this. I thought the Germans seem to have produced any number of good commanders…
Rommel commented in France on much of the German leadership when he said (paraphrased) that in the early part of the war they never believed in mobile warfare when it was possible, but now when that era had long past they wanted to try it: reserve Panzer Divisions hundreds of miles from the beaches.

Rommel in France was a strange fish. As Germany's most famous armoured warrior, he decided (quite correctly, I believe) that the Armoured divisions should lose their mobility and room to manouevre and instead be concentrated near the beaches. His remarks may have been prompted by the fact that the High Command had sided with Rundstedt against him. He complained bitterly about this throughout his tenure as Commander of Army Group B.

However, when you look at the German campaigns, from France, through the Balkans to Russia 41, I don't think they display a lack of ability on the German part. You can name only a few Senior practitioners (I'd add people like Hoth, Hoepner, not Kleist who was a convert) but also men like Manteuffel and Eberbach.
However, by 1941, they were massing them into armies, so they're only ever going to be a few famous names, as the senior commands were limited. Their list of divisional and Corp commanders is very good. Langkeit, Hausser et al. Rommel's comment is in part caused by the fact there were only ever a small number of Panzer Divisions available. Most German Generals commanded infantry formations.

Captain B.H. Liddell Hart was correct with regards to Field-Marshal von Manstein of the commanders not trained in the tank army he best understood mobile warfare, but most never did. Most German Generals were ridged, divorced from the average soldiers (aristocratic in nature), and inspired little loyalty or motivation in the men. There were exceptions of course Guderian or Rommel being one of the most notable, but they were exceptions. When one examines the performance of the German troops, one finds a common thread throughout… German units (pre-1944) we remarkable able, and while quality did vary somewhat, one is left with the impression that either all Generals were equally qualified or that the strength of the German units lied less with the General and more in other factors, such as training, experience, equipment ,and tactics.

True, but they also had many commanders at the other end who were quite the opposite, particularly in the Waffen SS. Men like Meyer. I'd also say this was only true of the Senior Officer Corp that took the Germans through to 1943. At small unit level throughout the war, the Officer/enlisted men relationship was good. These were the men who took command at the very end (men like Balck, Heinrici). It was the relationship at platoon, company and battalion level that made the German tactical advantages so useful.

You are, of course, right to point to German training and tactics, and also to experience. Small arms quality is another good factor. However, I think that this creates victorious battles, but not victorious campaigns. That comes from the quality of th strategic plan.
At the small level German tactical abilities (qualitative) could make up for being out numbered, but at the strategic level the Germans were repeatedly beaten. German leadership repeatedly made poor decisions, but since early in the war they had major advantages, they got away with it… later they were not so lucky
.

This is an exellent point. I think the war was clearly prolonged by German tactical abilities that caused problems even when the end was in sight and the manpower barrel was being scraped. However, the late war debate essentially concerns Hitler. From around September 1941, the majority of the major decisions concerning strategy are essentially being made by him. Armoured practitioners like Rommel are essentially being tied to defensive battles they cannot win by orders demanding no retreat. this deprives the Armour Generals of the right to manouevre. I think the later the war, the less able you are to discuss the German High Command since so much of the strategic realm had been removed from them.

Exellent post, Sir.
Regards,
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Most SS units had titles. 1st SS Panzer Division was actually called "1ST SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler". It grew out of his personal body guard unit.

"Der Fuhrer" in SS Terms referred to the Panzergrenadier Regiment no 4, which fought in 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich, a completely different formation.

Liebstandarte (that's 1st SS Panzer) did indeed come south at the very end of December 1944. However, a second feature of your arguments is a lack of perspective (exactly what you accuse me of). SS Liebstandarte had by this time been in action since the beginning of the Bulge. These attacks were carried out by two Kampfgruppes. One made up of around 30-40 tanks and some Panzergrenadiers, the other from what was left of the Divisions Panzergrenadiers. Some of the Divisional Jagdpanzers also seem to have taken part. All in all, the strength was maybe two Battalions worth of Panzergrenadiers and about 50 armoured vehicles. In percentage terms thats about a third of the divisional infantry and a quarter of it's tanks. It's artillery was hamstrung by a lack of ammunition.


I calculated the strength of this unit to be about 1400 Panzergrenadiers and 40-50 armoured vehicles. Jochen Peiper took no part in this action.

Regards,
IronDuke

This all sounds pretty much in line with what has been recorded in several books and the Official History.

Here is a question:

What was the the make-up of those 40-50 tanks that headed south?

Some sources I read indicate several King Tiger tanks. And if so, they would more than level the playing field against Shermans and TDs.

Is this correct? And could King Tigers have made it to Bastogne in the time allotted?

Cheers!
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

Sorry this has taken some time to post but I wanted to produce a definitive answer as to the activities (if any) and the location of the Leibstandarte after 23rd December 1944. Once Peiper's KG had run out of fuel and heavy ammunition at La Gleize the remnants abandoned their tanks and heavy weapons and made their way back to the Divisional positions around Wanne early on the 25th (Charles B. MacDonald - 'The Battle of the Bulge' - p.463). Here they remained until 1st January 1945 when they were withdrawn to positions in the rear (Gordon Williamson - 'The Blood Soaked Soil' - p.174).

However, this doesn't answer exactly who the 35th Division ran into south-east of Bastogne at the end of December. Ordered to take Bastotgne, Manteuffel put together two large battlegroups. One of these consisted of 167th Volksgrenadier Division, the 3rd Panzergrenadier Division and the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade. The latter was reinforced by a small Kampfgruppe (battalion size) scraped together from the Leibstandarte with a motley assortment of some 50 armoured vehicles that were either repairs or replacements (MacDonald - p.606). I believe this explains the use of the name 'Der Fuhrer' in the divisional history as well as the erroneous belief that the Leibstandarte was heavily involved in the fighting around Bastogne. As I said earlier, the best that they could have managed was a few 'ad hoc' units - as it turns out they could barely scrape together one and that subordinated to another unit.

Thanks for the reply Kevinugly.

That throws a bit more light on the subject.

Just wondering if you have any sources that indicate the make-up of those 40-50 tanks?

The Official History is silent about this, and one source I have indicates several King Tigers.

Any thoughts?

Cheers!
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Von Rom »

Kevinugly:

The Official History seems to indicate that the Fuhrer Brigade had its own armour that was separate from the 1SS Panzer.

Here is the quote:
Manteuffel counted on the Fuehrer Begleit to carry the main burden of the counterattack south of Bastogne. The brigade had about forty Mark IV tanks plus an assault gun brigade of thirty tubes, and its infantry had not been bled white as in the rest of the armored formations. In addition, Manteuffel had been promised the beat-up 1st SS Panzer Division, the 3d Panzer Grenadier Division, and the Fuehrer Grenadier Brigade, parts of these formations being scheduled to reach Decker on 28 December. Advance elements of the Fuehrer Begleit did arrive that morning, taking station in the Bois de Herbaimont north of the MarcheBastogne road, but the Allied Jabos were in full cry over the battlefield and Remer could not bring all his troops forward or issue from the forest cover. Time was running out for the Germans. As early as the night of the 27th Rundstedt's staff believed that unless Remer could make a successful attack at once it was "questionable" whether the Bastogne gap could be sealed. Manteuffel later would say that this job could have been done only by counterattacking within forty-eight hours" (p.614).

If this is correct, than the Fuhrer Brigade would have had 40 tanks, and the 1SS Panzer would have had 40-50 tanks.

Or, are we talking about the same tanks here for both groups?

Any other sources to clear this up?

Anyone have the OoB for the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade in the Ardennes?
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Von Rom »

Here is what it says about this southern attack force of the 1SS Panzer (from German Tanks of WWII by Dr.'s Hart & Hart, p.141):
"The German Army now redeployed the Leibstandarte, with its remaining 17 King Tigers and solitary Tiger I, to Bastogne to help German efforts to encircle the town."

This may not be the best source.

Is this correct?

What I have so far would indicate:

1) The Fuhrer Brigade had 40 PzIVs, plus several TDs.

2) The 1SS Panzer had 40-50 tanks, with several (up to 17?) King Tigers.

How accurate is this?

This quote from the Official History again seems to confirm two separate attack forces with their own armour:

The eastern assault force comprised the much understrength and crippled 1st SS Panzer and the 167th Volks Grenadier Divisions; its drive was to be made via Lutrebois toward Assenois. The attack from the west would be spearheaded by the Fuehrer Begleit advancing over Sibret and hammering the ring closed. The 3d Panzer Grenadier Division was to advance in echelon to the left of Remer's brigade while the remnants of the 26th Volks Grenadier Division and 15th Panzer Grenadier Division screened to the west and north of Bastogne. The timing for the arrival of the incoming reinforcements-the 12th SS Panzer, the 9th SS Panzer, and the 340th Volks Grenadier Divisions-was problematical (p.619).

and this:
The Fuehrer Begleit advance was geared for a one-two punch at Sibret. The battalion of Remer's panzer grenadiers, which had clashed briefly with Task Force Collins in Chenogne the previous evening, moved out over the snow-covered fields to pry an opening on the north edge of Sibret, while the Fuehrer Begleit tank group-carrying a battalion of grenadierswaited in Chenogne to move forward on a parallel trail which passed through Flohimont and entered Sibret from the west. A dense ground fog covered the area for a few hours, masking the opposing forces from one another. The grenadier battalion made some progress and drove Task Force Collins back toward Sibret, but the battalion commander was killed and the advance slowed down. Remer's tank group was nearing Flohimont when the fog curtain raised abruptly to reveal about thirty American tanks (p.620).
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Most SS units had titles. 1st SS Panzer Division was actually called "1ST SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler". It grew out of his personal body guard unit.

"Der Fuhrer" in SS Terms referred to the Panzergrenadier Regiment no 4, which fought in 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich, a completely different formation.

Liebstandarte (that's 1st SS Panzer) did indeed come south at the very end of December 1944. However, a second feature of your arguments is a lack of perspective (exactly what you accuse me of). SS Liebstandarte had by this time been in action since the beginning of the Bulge. These attacks were carried out by two Kampfgruppes. One made up of around 30-40 tanks and some Panzergrenadiers, the other from what was left of the Divisions Panzergrenadiers. Some of the Divisional Jagdpanzers also seem to have taken part. All in all, the strength was maybe two Battalions worth of Panzergrenadiers and about 50 armoured vehicles. In percentage terms thats about a third of the divisional infantry and a quarter of it's tanks. It's artillery was hamstrung by a lack of ammunition.


I calculated the strength of this unit to be about 1400 Panzergrenadiers and 40-50 armoured vehicles. Jochen Peiper took no part in this action.

Regards,
IronDuke

This all sounds pretty much in line with what has been recorded in several books and the Official History.

Here is a question:

What was the the make-up of those 40-50 tanks that headed south?

Some sources I read indicate several King Tiger tanks. And if so, they would more than level the playing field against Shermans and TDs.

Is this correct? And could King Tigers have made it to Bastogne in the time allotted?

Cheers!

A number of Liebstandarte's armoured vehicles had become dispersed during Peiper's drive. He had only a small number of tanks with him when his force broke out from the La Gleize area and struck out for German lines. Probably no more than 7 Panthers were left behind. Many seem to have become stuck the other side of the river at Stoumont further back. Others had become immobilised through lack of petrol after being sent on detours, still others sent to the rear, as he recognised his drive was over, and he dug in. Many were knocked out.

Theoretical strength before the LAH set off for Bastogne was around 16 Panthers, 26 MK IVs, 33 Tigers and 18 Jagdpanzer IVs. We know half the Tigers were in the workshops. Since large numbers of vehicles on strength in German Panzer units were often found in the workshops, we can assume that a good number of the others were as well.

There is little evidence that the Tigers actually fought in the Bastogne area. Some US after action reports for early January mention Tigers, and one historian has suggested a KG Mobius was operating east of Bastogne at this time, comprising appox 15 tanks. No reliable information exists concerning this unit however, although it seems likely it was there, The Tigers were attached to the Liebstandarte at this time, and it is the best guess for what they were actually doing.

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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Kevinugly:

The Official History seems to indicate that the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade had its own armour that was separate from the 1SS Panzer.

Here is the quote:
Manteuffel counted on the Fuehrer Begleit to carry the main burden of the counterattack south of Bastogne. The brigade had about forty Mark IV tanks plus an assault gun brigade of thirty tubes, and its infantry had not been bled white as in the rest of the armored formations. In addition, Manteuffel had been promised the beat-up 1st SS Panzer Division, the 3d Panzer Grenadier Division, and the Fuehrer Grenadier Brigade, parts of these formations being scheduled to reach Decker on 28 December. Advance elements of the Fuehrer Begleit did arrive that morning, taking station in the Bois de Herbaimont north of the MarcheBastogne road, but the Allied Jabos were in full cry over the battlefield and Remer could not bring all his troops forward or issue from the forest cover. Time was running out for the Germans. As early as the night of the 27th Rundstedt's staff believed that unless Remer could make a successful attack at once it was "questionable" whether the Bastogne gap could be sealed. Manteuffel later would say that this job could have been done only by counterattacking within forty-eight hours" (p.614).

If this is correct, than the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade would have had 40 tanks, and the 1SS Panzer would have had 40-50 tanks.

Or, are we talking about the same tanks here for both groups?

Any other sources to clear this up?

Anyone have the OoB for the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade in the Ardennes?

The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade was a separate formation. It had no connection to Liebstandarte, it was Wehrmacht not Waffen SS.

It contained an armoured battalion (33 Panthers and 11 Jagdpanzers); a motorised infantry Battalion and a Mechanised Infantry battalion. There werer also have been support elements (flak, pioneer and SIg companies), and a Bicycle Battalion seems to have been attached to the Brigade shortly before the Ardennes offensive started.

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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Here is what it says about this southern attack force of the 1SS Panzer (from German Tanks of WWII by Dr.'s Hart & Hart, p.141):
"The German Army now redeployed the Leibstandarte, with its remaining 17 King Tigers and solitary Tiger I, to Bastogne to help German efforts to encircle the town."

This may not be the best source.

Is this correct?

What I have so far would indicate:

1) The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade had 40 PzIVs, plus several TDs.

2) The 1SS Panzer had 40-50 tanks, with several (up to 17?) King Tigers.

How accurate is this?

This quote from the Official History again seems to confirm two separate attack forces with their own armour:

The eastern assault force comprised the much understrength and crippled 1st SS Panzer and the 167th Volks Grenadier Divisions; its drive was to be made via Lutrebois toward Assenois. The attack from the west would be spearheaded by the Fuehrer Begleit advancing over Sibret and hammering the ring closed. The 3d Panzer Grenadier Division was to advance in echelon to the left of Remer's brigade while the remnants of the 26th Volks Grenadier Division and 15th Panzer Grenadier Division screened to the west and north of Bastogne. The timing for the arrival of the incoming reinforcements-the 12th SS Panzer, the 9th SS Panzer, and the 340th Volks Grenadier Divisions-was problematical (p.619).

and this:
The Fuehrer Begleit advance was geared for a one-two punch at Sibret. The battalion of Remer's panzer grenadiers, which had clashed briefly with Task Force Collins in Chenogne the previous evening, moved out over the snow-covered fields to pry an opening on the north edge of Sibret, while the Fuehrer Begleit tank group-carrying a battalion of grenadierswaited in Chenogne to move forward on a parallel trail which passed through Flohimont and entered Sibret from the west. A dense ground fog covered the area for a few hours, masking the opposing forces from one another. The grenadier battalion made some progress and drove Task Force Collins back toward Sibret, but the battalion commander was killed and the advance slowed down. Remer's tank group was nearing Flohimont when the fog curtain raised abruptly to reveal about thirty American tanks (p.620).

The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade and the Fuhrer Begleit Brigade were separate formations. The Fuhrer Begleit had a mechanised infantry Battalion, a motorised infantry battalion and the 829 bicycle battalion. It had around 40 Stugs, 30 Panthers, 15 Jagdpanthers and some self propelled Paks.

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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Here is what it says about this southern attack force of the 1SS Panzer (from German Tanks of WWII by Dr.'s Hart & Hart, p.141):
"The German Army now redeployed the Leibstandarte, with its remaining 17 King Tigers and solitary Tiger I, to Bastogne to help German efforts to encircle the town."

This may not be the best source.

Is this correct?

What I have so far would indicate:

1) The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade had 40 PzIVs, plus several TDs.

2) The 1SS Panzer had 40-50 tanks, with several (up to 17?) King Tigers.

How accurate is this?

This quote from the Official History again seems to confirm two separate attack forces with their own armour:

The eastern assault force comprised the much understrength and crippled 1st SS Panzer and the 167th Volks Grenadier Divisions; its drive was to be made via Lutrebois toward Assenois. The attack from the west would be spearheaded by the Fuehrer Begleit advancing over Sibret and hammering the ring closed. The 3d Panzer Grenadier Division was to advance in echelon to the left of Remer's brigade while the remnants of the 26th Volks Grenadier Division and 15th Panzer Grenadier Division screened to the west and north of Bastogne. The timing for the arrival of the incoming reinforcements-the 12th SS Panzer, the 9th SS Panzer, and the 340th Volks Grenadier Divisions-was problematical (p.619).

and this:
The Fuehrer Begleit advance was geared for a one-two punch at Sibret. The battalion of Remer's panzer grenadiers, which had clashed briefly with Task Force Collins in Chenogne the previous evening, moved out over the snow-covered fields to pry an opening on the north edge of Sibret, while the Fuehrer Begleit tank group-carrying a battalion of grenadierswaited in Chenogne to move forward on a parallel trail which passed through Flohimont and entered Sibret from the west. A dense ground fog covered the area for a few hours, masking the opposing forces from one another. The grenadier battalion made some progress and drove Task Force Collins back toward Sibret, but the battalion commander was killed and the advance slowed down. Remer's tank group was nearing Flohimont when the fog curtain raised abruptly to reveal about thirty American tanks (p.620).

The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade and the Fuhrer Begleit Brigade were separate formations. The Fuhrer Begleit had a mechanised infantry Battalion, a motorised infantry battalion and the 829 bicycle battalion. It had around 40 Stugs, 30 Panthers, 15 Jagdpanthers and some self propelled Paks.

IronDuke

Ok, that all helps to sort through what we have.

Thanks for all the info in the last three posts and for the distinction between those two brigades [:)]

I'll edit my posts so people don't get confused over it.

Helps to give us a much clearer picture now.

Cheers!
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Kevinugly »

The whole situation around the end of December near Bastogne is very confused (regarding the German side especially). 5th Panzerarmee had been ordered to take Bastogne and various formations were allotted to Manteuffel's command, but these were often ad hoc collections of men and vehicles 'cobbled together' into Kampfgruppe, launched into the fray under one commander, reinforced by another group under another, possibly senior, commander. The Germans were improvising in the way they had been on the Eastern Front for some time.

Reading through various histories of the battle, it seems relatively easy to piece together an account of the 'Bulge' up to the time of the relief of Bastogne by Patton's Third Army. The accounts of the battle to eradicate the salient following this are much less satisfactory. Even MacDonald's work (supposedly the 'definitive' account) falls away at this juncture of the battle. Of the 620 pages he gives to the battle (ignoring the epilogue and the appendices) less than twenty are concerned with 'Erasing the Bulge' (as he entitles the chapter) despite the fact that it deals with nearly a month of fighting. The first hundred 'set the scene' and the other 500 deal with around ten days of fighting.
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Golf33 »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

33,

Do you recommend Jentz? It's been on my Amazon wish list for quite a while. What sort of detail are we talking about inside it?

Regards,
IronDuke
Recommend? That depends very much on what you want to get from it (them actually, there are two volumes - 1933 to 1942, and 1943 to 1945 - both of which deal exclusively with tanks, containing nothing about infantry or panzergrenadier).

Jentz seems to have a pretty good reputation as definitive. He claims to have based his book entirely on primary material, although since he doesn't actually give sources in enough detail to be able to track them down it would be difficult to absolutely verify this.

The detail varies a bit. The book is full of a wealth of details of all sorts of small units, obscure units, individual companies, combat reports, statistics, strength reports and so on. It's largely focused on the lower levels - there are lots of accounts of small engagements that were part of a wider battle - and some aspects don't get treated in any depth at all.

For instance the whole of the Ardennes counteroffensive gets just five paragraphs of text, none of which deal with the course of the battle, but there are a number charts showing the organisation and strength of the panzer regiments involved (though it's not clear to me on first reading whether this includes all vehicles or only those in combat-ready condition). On the other hand, pages 74 to 101 deal exclusively with ZITADELLE, including a number of company-level accounts, maps, the starting organisation and strength of all panzer regiments involved, charts showing the overall operational status of Pz-Abt. 21, Pz-Rgt. 11, and s.Pz-Abt. 503 from 4 to 20 July, and another chart showing the status of operational panthers from 5 to 17 July (although it doesn't say exactly which units are included, so the reader has to presume that it refers to all Panthers assigned to units involved in the operation).

There are various diagrammatic representations of the KStN (equivalent to American TO&E) tables for the various types of tank unit that were authorised during the war and some discussion in various places of how closely different units conformed to these. There's also a neat chart of the tank strength by type of all panzer units on the Eastern Front at 15 March 45, showing total and operational strengths. There are solid appendices showing the formation of Heer, OKH, SS and Luftwaffe panzer units (with dates and in most cases showing parent units), statistics of various tank types by month showing inventory, gains and reported losses, technical specs for American, British, German and Soviet tanks including quite a bit of detail (things like ground pressure, suspension details, armour for hull and turret for each main facing - though not slope of armour I notice), the penetration of German tank guns, and of French and Russian guns tested by W.A.Prüf., a brief recommended reading list that sadly doesn't detail the actual sources used for the book itself, and a reasonable glossary of German terms. There is no index though this is somewhat offset by the organisation of chapters ("Defeat in North Africa", "Reorganisation of the Panzertruppen - October 1942 through December 1943", "Defence of Italy", "Formation of the Last Units" to name a few) which makes finding specific information a matter of searching through several pages rather than the whole book.

It's not an easy book to read due to the format (it's all sans-serif typeface, unit names are in bold, combat reports in italic) and in any case doesn't seem to be written for a reader who likes to start at the beginning and finish at the end. There are, as I've said, lots of lovely charts, tables, KStN diagrams, Pz-Rgt. organisational and strength charts, and heaps of black-and-white photos which all appear to be captioned and are clearly printed. It is definitely a reference book rather than a narrative history.

Regards
33
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Golf33 »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

If this is correct, than the Fuhrer Brigade would have had 40 tanks, and the 1SS Panzer would have had 40-50 tanks.

Or, are we talking about the same tanks here for both groups?

Any other sources to clear this up?

Anyone have the OoB for the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade in the Ardennes?

Total operational tank strength (according to Jentz) "in all units in the West" (he could mean all units involved in the offensive, or actually mean all units in the West which would include those designated for Nordwind or in static defence elsewhere) for 30 December:
StuG: 335
PzIV: 345 (including PzIV/70(V), PzIV/70(A), FlakpzIV, and Sturmpanzer)
PzV: 240
PzVI: 58 (including Tiger I, Tiger II, and Sturmtiger)

Führer-Begleit-Brigade started the offensive with:
4 FlakpzIV(2V), 4 FlakpzIV(37), 24 PzIV(lg), 43 PzIV/70(A)

Führer-Grenadier-Brigade started the offensive with:
4 FlakpzIV(37), 11 StuG, 7 PzIV(lg), 32 PzV, 12 PzIVIV/70(V)

All the units that had PzVI (in Jentz this normally includes VIE and VIB but the total at least gives a ceiling):
s.SS-Pz.Abt. 501, att to SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 of 1.SS-Pz.Div "LSSAH": 45
Pz.Abt.(Fkl) 301: 27
s.H.Pz.Abt 506: 42, with 6 replacements in transit at 10 Dec 44

So the total Tigers available at the start of the offensive was 114 with a further 6 en route, I am sure I've seen a few sources that mention a "handful" of Tiger II amongst these but I haven't seen anything suggesting there would have even been a full company of those monsters. Also, the Tiger II was distinctly unsuited to operations in terrain like the Ardennes, due to its high ground pressure (258 kg/sq.cm as opposed to 238 for the Tiger I, 142 for the Panther G, 140 for the Panther D-A, and just 87 for the PzIV), bulk, and unreliability. In dense wooded or urban areas the 88mm/L71 gun was also at a disadvantage to the 88mm/L56 of the Tiger I, due to its greater length which caused problems trying to traverse when close to trees or buildings.

According to Jentz, the total inventory (I believe this is for all German forces) of Tiger II was 174 on 1 Dec 44, and 195 on 1 Jan 45, while the inventory for Tiger I was 274 and 276 for those dates respectively. The reported losses on those dates were:
Tiger I: 1 Dec 44, 2; 1 Jan 45, 62; 1 Feb 45, ??
Tiger II: 1 Dec 44, 30; 1 Jan 45, 11; 1 Feb 45, ??
I interpret this to indicate that Tiger II were relatively uninvolved in the Ardennes fighting during December as their losses were marginal during that month compared to the losses of Tiger I. This is of course all complicated by these figures which are not for any particular battle or even front, but are overall stats for the whole tank fleet.

I think that the absence of reported losses for Jan probably indicates the near-total destruction and complete disorganisation inflicted on the German army during the misbegotten disaster that was the Ardennes.

Regards
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by CCB »

Only seventy more pages to go.
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Kevinugly »

ORIGINAL: CCB

Only seventy more pages to go.

[&:]

That's one more post in the direction although I have no idea what you're referring to [:D]
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RE: Why was Patton so great?

Post by Belisarius »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
ORIGINAL: Kevinugly
… those commanders we wish to elevate to 'greatness' need to show they apply other principles too…

Finally, Patton never fought a battle where he didn't have materiel superiority on the ground and the air, where he was fighting a battle where he had to hold ground rather than take it. It's very difficult to make a case for him to be compared with WW2 commanders like Manstein and Slim who showed their capacity to successfully apply all of the principles of warfare even in the most adverse of situations. It's even more difficult to place him with the greats of all military history.
Interesting. I disagree in some areas.

The Germans did well when they had air superiority and numerical/qualitative superiority, and when they didn’t they faired poorly. So what? Should the accomplishment of the Germans in 1940 against France be dismissed because they attacked second rate troops with overwhelming force, while having air superiority?

In my opinion, German commanders as a group are overrated by most people, and Erich von Manstein is no acceptation. He understood the nature of armored warfare during this period, a rarity among German commanders, but was not a miracle worker. When in a tactically disadvantages situation he achieve no radical victories, and while his handling of Panzer forces was very good, his command of infantry forces was adequate. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t brilliant, just that his victories were achieved under similar circumstances you dismiss so easily in your post.



1. He did well with 56th Panzer Corps in 1941 with a superior force and air superiority, against a surprised and poorly lead Soviet troops.

2. His handling of 11th Army in the Crimea can best be described as adequate, but before Sevastopol fell his Army was spent.

3. His action while commanding forces attacking Leningrad can hardly be called brilliant.

4. His command of Army Group Don was not successful.

5. The counter attack in the winter of 1942/43 was excellent, but it was concentrated German armor against an exhausted, strung out and poorly supplied Soviet force.

6. His commander of Army Group South consisted of a failed offense and endless retreat.



"Field-Marshal von Manstein had proved the ablest commander in the German Army. He had a superb sense of operational possibilities and an equal mastery in the conduct of operations, together with a greater grasp of the potentialities of mechanised forces than any of the other commanders not trained in the tank army. In sum, he had military genius."

Captain B.H. Liddell Hart


PS. I am not comparing the abilities of any general, just pointing out that the “circumstances” that are dismissed when helping an Allied victory were also used by the Germans.



Stirring the pot. [;)]

Culiacan Mexico:

Excellent summary [:)]

And of course you make very valid points.

You are not stirrig the pot, when what you say is true.

Most of all the early German victories; most of all the fame the German armies gained; much of the reputation gained by German generals; was done against weaker, poorer, and inferior forces in Poland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, France, Norway, etc, etc. . .

Cheers!

HAHAHA!

A valid statement, but oh my that's simplifying the picture. So we should interpret the tactics by looking at the final result only? No wonder Patton is so popular. He's invincible![;)]

On the tactical scale, the German army could take on prepared and well organized defenders and beat them, even in adverse weather conditions. Luckily for us, logistics and strategic planning left much to be desired.

But saying that they always failed if the opponent wasn't weaker? Nah.
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