How many escorts in a convoy.

[general billy]

A basic question, whats the ratio for the amount of escorts to transport ships?
At the moment Im doing the more the better method. Any ideas?

Thanks

[von Murrin]

I like to think 1:2 is optimal, but 1:5 is the minimum.

[DrewMatrix]

How many escorts where? I think that is important. SF to Noumea, you may not need any or hardly any. Noumea to Lunga point you need lots.

Adding low endurance ships to the TF (MSWs with some ASW for example) will slow you down, right (when they need to refuel from the AKs). So a few low endurance ships might _increase_ the chance a sub gets you by lenghtening youir exposure.

Out in the Eastern and Southern Pacific I am not using any escorts at all at the moment.

[von Murrin]

Keep in mind that it's easier to use the Escort TF function for additional protection on dangerous supply runs. It's kind of a pain to ship 20 AK's and 5 DD's from SF to Noumea, and then add 2 CA's, 1 CL, and 4 more DD's for a trip to Lunga unless you're using dedicated and/or CS convoys.

[Xargun]

Also remember to pick escorts that can protect against the threat they will face.. Many of the IJN DDs have NO ASW ability (not sure about Allies) so if you're worried about subs you have to be careful which DDs you pick or all you will have is some ship and AA protection and subs can attack at will... What I do is form a ASW TF first and put ships into it, then transfer them to the cargo / transport fleet - that way I'm sure I get ASW escorts - which is my biggest threat right now..

As for numbers that depends on the threat level.. If its low - send 1-2 or none... If you know he operates in the area, sending 3-4 for 1 or 2 merchies isn't bad... Its so dependent on circumstances thats its hard to say.. You also have to factor in how important is the cargo - if shipping a division using 10 APs, lossing one is not that important in most cases.. Shipping a NLF in 1 AP is important as if that ship sinks, you just lost a unit that will never come back.. Same thing for resources and oil... Oil for japan is more precious than a few DDs, so escort your oil shipments heavily..

If you want to post some direct questions go ahead and I'm sure we can give some suggestions..

Xargun

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: general billy

A basic question, whats the ratio for the amount of escorts to transport ships?
At the moment Im doing the more the better method. Any ideas?

Thanks

Good question.

When moving resources in the DEI, I go for about five per AK/TK. In 1941/42, I don’t have problems with Allied submarines even though the area is swarming with them. Outside that area I am more conservative with escorts.

[von Murrin]

Uhhh, Culi?

Five escorts per AK/TK??? I take it you meant the reverse?[;)]

[Fallschirmjager]

I use whatever I have sitting around. A ship in harbor is a useless ship.
A few extra PG's or what not will net you a sub kill now and then, or ward off a surface TF or shoot down an attacking aircraft.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Uhhh, Culi?

Five escorts per AK/TK??? I take it you meant the reverse?[;)]

[:D]

You would think so, but I actually do commit that many escort to my AK/TK moving Resources and Oil. I fear the loss of an TK with 16,000 oil points headed to Japan would make me cry. [;)]

[Captain Cruft]

For ASW don't think "escorts per transport", think "escorts per convoy". The importance of the convoy is determined by what it's carrying not how many ships it's composed of.

When playing as Japan I try and use an absolute minimum of 5 ASW escorts. All destroyers with ASW and endurance <= 4000 will be allocated to escorting convoys in conjunction with the innumerable MSWs, PGs & PCs. Destroyers with endurance >= 4750 go to "fleet duty" i.e. protecting CVs, BBs & CAs.

Another theory I have is that ASW Combat "hunter-killer" groups are a luxury that Japan can't afford at any time and the Allies only later on. Why waste fuel hunting for a sub when you can have it come to you? Put the ASW ships in the convoy.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Also remember to pick escorts that can protect against the threat they will face.. Many of the IJN DDs have NO ASW ability (not sure about Allies) so if you're worried about subs you have to be careful which DDs you pick or all you will have is some ship and AA protection and subs can attack at will... What I do is form a ASW TF first and put ships into it, then transfer them to the cargo / transport fleet - that way I'm sure I get ASW escorts - which is my biggest threat right now..

As for numbers that depends on the threat level.. If its low - send 1-2 or none... If you know he operates in the area, sending 3-4 for 1 or 2 merchies isn't bad... Its so dependent on circumstances thats its hard to say.. You also have to factor in how important is the cargo - if shipping a division using 10 APs, lossing one is not that important in most cases.. Shipping a NLF in 1 AP is important as if that ship sinks, you just lost a unit that will never come back.. Same thing for resources and oil... Oil for japan is more precious than a few DDs, so escort your oil shipments heavily..

If you want to post some direct questions go ahead and I'm sure we can give some suggestions..

Xargun

Also watch for mines at ports you are invading. Early on playing the Japanese that minefield at Hong Kong is a whopper! Sank almost an entire AK TF trying to pickup the 38th division there. Not enough DD escorts to destroy the mines and forgot to include MSW's to clear paths...

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

For ASW don't think "escorts per transport", think "escorts per convoy". The importance of the convoy is determined by what it's carrying not how many ships it's composed of.

Anyway in this game the whole escort will react to subs so the escort/escorted is not as important as it was in real life.

In WWII, a 20 ship convoy covered by 5 escorts will have no ship available for ASW chase. Only the closest escort will have a chance to react, so the other can't leave their position or let the convoy open to another attack.
The same convoy covered by 15 escorts can afford to send 5 ships chasing the sub and so have a far greater chance to sink it.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

For ASW don't think "escorts per transport", think "escorts per convoy". The importance of the convoy is determined by what it's carrying not how many ships it's composed of.

Anyway in this game the whole escort will react to subs so the escort/escorted is not as important as it was in real life.

In WWII, a 20 ship convoy covered by 5 escorts will have no ship available for ASW chase. Only the closest escort will have a chance to react, so the other can't leave their position or let the convoy open to another attack.
The same convoy covered by 15 escorts can afford to send 5 ships chasing the sub and so have a far greater chance to sink it.

This may change.

[Spectra]

One final issue to remember in the end, when facing the sub threat only, is that (based on operational studies performed during the war) the loss of ships from a convoy is independent of the # of ships in the covoy, and is more a function of the # of convoys...

So to minimize losses, really big convoys less often is the way to go..

(This prompted the Allies to switch from 30+ ship convoys to 70-100+ ship convoys in WW2.)

I suspect it all changes if your in Air range of the enemy, though...

[Captain Cruft]

ORIGINAL: Spectra

One final issue to remember in the end, when facing the sub threat only, is that (based on operational studies performed during the war) the loss of ships from a convoy is independent of the # of ships in the covoy, and is more a function of the # of convoys...

So to minimize losses, really big convoys less often is the way to go..

(This prompted the Allies to switch from 30+ ship convoys to 70-100+ ship convoys in WW2.)

Right. The Battle of Atlantic is very well documented, there is no reason for WitP players to re-learn the same lessons ...

I suspect it all changes if your in Air range of the enemy, though...

Makes you wonder why the Germans didn't "acquire" or license Nells for the BoA. Would have been interesting ...

Oh yes I know why. Herr Goering wasn't interested in attacking ships, thankfully.

[UncleBuck]

Well, Germany had plenty of planes to do the job of transport harassment. The Ju-88's could carry torpedoes but the vast range of the North Atlantic would negate most air strikes from Scandinavia. The allies sent the convoys way out off the coast. Even Nells would not reach them. There was a narrow range that convoys were susceptible to air attack. Once the Escort carriers were added to the convoys, the threat to German Air was much greater. The FW-200 was a very good plane with great range but sighting and sending info to HQ for subs to be vectored was the best it could do.
UB

[crsutton]

In the early stages of the conflict, Admiral King gave the highest priority to protecting troopships over merchants. He took a lot of flack for it as the American merchant fleet got pounded but the reasoning was right. I don't think the Americans ever lost a major troop ship and suffered the morale and the public relations nightmare associated with such a disaster. Once American production caught up, there were plenty of escorts to go around.

I think that as the Japanese player, I would guard my tankers like a virgin in prison.

[AmiralLaurent]

Don't know what you call a major troop ship but America suffer several troopships disasters during the war, but all against Germany:

All descrition listed in this post are from http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/maritime.html

USAT DORCHESTER

(February 3, 1943)
Ex coastal luxury passenger ship of 5,649 tons converted to a troop carrier, sunk by torpedo from the U-223 (Kptlt. Karl-Jung Wächter) The Dorchester was bound for the American base in Greenland from St. John's, Newfoundland, with 902 passengers and crew on board when attacked at 0355hrs about 150 miles south of Cape Farewell. Of the passengers, most were U.S. troops. In addition she carried 1,000 tons of cargo. Escort ships of the Greenland Patrol rescued 229 persons from the stricken vessel, 132 by the Coast Guard Cutter Escanaba, and another 97 rescued by a sister ship, the Commanche. In all, 672 souls were lost including 404 soldiers. Hundreds of dead bodies, kept afloat by their lifejackets, were picked up from the sea. On board the Dorchester were four Army chaplains of different denominations who helped distribute life jackets and help the injured. When the storage locker was empty they removed their own life jackets and handed them to the next man in line. As the ship went down, survivors in the water could see the four chaplains standing on the sloping deck, arms linked and praying while awaiting their fate. A special Medal for Heroism was authorized by Congress and along with the Purple Heart and the Distinguished Service Cross, were posthumously awarded to the four chaplains.

SS HENRY R. MALLORY
(February 9, 1943)
Part of the 69 ship UK bound North Atlantic convoy SC-118, the American ex-passenger liner Mallory (6,063 tons) built in 1916, was attacked and sunk by a torpedoes from the German submarine U-402 (Forstner) part of a twenty U-boat pack. The Mallory was enroute from New York to Reykjavik, Iceland, and had parted from the convoy just before the attack. Eleven ships in the convoy were later sunk. Of the 494 passengers and crew on board the Mallory, including 381 US troops, 34 armed guards, 2 civilians and a crew of 77 of which 39 members were lost, a total of 272 men perished. The 224 survivors were rescued four hours later by the US Coast Guard cutter Bibb, which picked up 205 men, three of whom died on board, and by the escort USCG Ingham, which saved 25 men, two of whom died later.

HMT ROHNA

(November 26, 1943)
British liner/troopship of 8,602 tons, carrying 2,193 passengers, including 1,988 US troops, 7 Red Cross personnel and a crew of 198, sailed from Oran, Algieria, bound for Bombay, India, via the Suez Canal. She joined the convoy KMF 26 which consisted of 24 ships in six columns, four ships in each column and escorted by seven British destroyers. Between Algiers and Phillopville the convoy was attacked by around 30 Heinkel 177 bombers of 11/KG-40. The Rohna was hit by a HS 293 'glider bomb' (the world's first guided missile) The troopship, crewed by Indian seamen under British officers and captained by an Australian, was owned by the British India Steam Navigation Company. The ship sank in less than 30 minutes taking 1,015 US troops and 102 crew members to a watery death. Between 10.30 PM and midnight, rescue ships, including the minesweeper SS Pioneer, the Red Cross ship Clan Campbell and the Rohna's sister ship HMT Rajula, reported ‘sailing through a sea of floating bodies’. Just over 900 survivors were rescued. Eight of the Heinkel 177s were shot down during the attack. Survivors were landed at Phillopville and taken care of by a British army unit. For reasons of national security details of this tragedy were kept secret for many years. (The Rohna survivors web page is located at.... <www.whidbey.net/rohna/rohna.htm> )

SS DEMPO

(March 17, 1944)
Dutch passenger liner (16,979 tons) serviced the Holland-Java route with 634 passengers in four classes. Used as a troopship from 1941 but was sunk in the Mediterranean by the U- 371 (Lt-Cdr. Mehl) A total of 498 U.S. troops on board, died. The Dempo was part of convoy SNF.17.

SS PAUL HAMILTON

(April 20, 1944)
Liberty Ship, part of Convoy UGS-38 which had formed in Norfolk, Virginia, sunk by aerial torpedo from a Junker Ju-88 bomber about thirty miles off the coast of Cape Bengut, Algeria. The plane came in low and launched its torpedo about 150 feet from the Paul Hamilton which also carried a volatile cargo of high explosives and bombs. The ship simply disappeared from the surface of the sea after a violent explosion which threw debris hundreds of feet high into the air. A total of 580 men (47 Merchant Marine crew, 29 Armed Guards and 504 Army Air Force personnel, including 154 men of the 831st Squadron, lost their lives) There were no survivors, only one body was ever recovered, that of 2nd. Lt. Austin Anderle. This was the largest casualty list of any Liberty ship during the war. During the same action, the escort destroyer USS Landsdale was sunk with a loss of 47 lives. Another ship was sunk and two more damaged bringing the total deaths in this disaster to 627.

LEOPOLDVILLE

(December 24, 1944)
An 11,509 ton Belgian troopship carrying US soldiers across the English Channel to France, a trip she had done twenty four times before. On this Christmas Eve the ship carried 2,235 men of the US 64th Infantry Regiment of the US 66th Infantry Division which had left New York on November 14th. The troops were to relieve the 94th Division already fighting the "Battle of the Bulge". When the ship was about five miles from Cherbourg, a torpedo fired from the German U-boat the U-486 ( Oblt. Gerhard Meyer) hit the ship which sank soon after. Official records put the number of men lost at 802. The 66th Infantry Division alone, lost 14 officers and 748 men, but the exact number is not known due to the hurried departure at 9am from Pier 38 at Southhampton and the unorganized boarding procedures. As no life jackets were issued, the men of the Leopoldville died in the freezing 48 degree waters of the English Channel. Most of her crew, Africans from the Belgian Congo, took off in the lifeboats, deserting the troops on board. Her commander, Captain Limbor, was the only officer lost. The few survivors were rescued by the escort destroyer HMS Brilliant and transferred to the St. Nazaire/Lorient area but 493 bodies were never found, presumably going down with the ship. The wreck of the Leopoldville lies on her port side in 180 feet of water in a remarkable state of preservation, in an area now used for testing nuclear submarines. The Allied Governments covered up the story of the tragedy for over 50 years, relatives being told simply that their loved ones were 'Killed in Action'. In 1996, Britain de-classified the files relating to the disaster. A memorial to the Leopoldville can be seen at Sacrifice Field at Fort Benning in Georgia, dedicated on November 7, 1997.

Against the Japanese, I found the following troopship disasters (more than 100 dead), the worst being the British one. I have not listed the numerous British troopship losses agaisnt the Germans.

CAPE SAN JUAN

(November 11, 1943)
U.S. freighter torpedoed by Japanese submarine I-21. The ship was sailing from San Francisco to Townsville, Australia, with 49 crew, 41 gunners and 1,348 US Army troops on board. Sixteen men were killed when the torpedo hit and a further 114 drowned while they abandoned ship. The liberty ship Edwin T. Meredith picked up 443 survivors and brought them to Noumea, in New Caledonia. The survivors rescued by the destroyer USS McCalla were transferred to the USS Dempsey for medical care before being transported to Suva in the Fiji Islands. Attempts to scuttle the Cape San Juan with gunfire failed and the ship remained afloat for another two days before sinking on the 13th.

KHEDIVE ISMAIL

(February 12, 1944)
Egyptian transport of 7,513 tons requisitioned as a troopship while docked at Bombay in 1940. The ship was carrying 1,511 people including 178 ships crew, 996 men of the 301st Field Regiment, East African Artillery, 271 Royal Navy personnel and a detachment of 19 British Wrens. Also on board were 53 nursing sisters with one matron and 9 WTS girls (Women's Transport Service). While enroute from Mobasa, Africa, to Colombo, Ceylon, in convoy KR-8, the ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean. It took only 1 minute 40 seconds for the ship to sink taking 1,297 of her passengers and crew with her. There were only 214 survivors from the vessel, a victim of the Japanese submarine I-27 commanded by Lt-Cdr Fukumura. The I-27 was then blown apart by torpedoes fired from two of the escort destroyers, HMS Petard and HMS Paladin.

THOMAS NELSON

(November 20, 1944)
US merchant ship, at anchor with twenty other ships in Dulag Bay, was attacked by a Japanese suicide plane that had dived through a barrage of anti-aircraft fire to crash on her deck. The explosion and fire caused the deaths of some 140 US army enlisted men, navy gunners and merchant navy crewmen.

KYLE V. JOHNSON

(January 12, 1945)
US Liberty ship enroute to Lingayan Gulf in convoy when the convoy was attacked off the west coast of Luzon by six or seven Japanese suicide planes. One of the kamikazes crashed into the starboard side of the Johnson and ploughed its way through the steel hull and into the lower hold crowded with hundreds of US troops. The Johnson did not sink but after the fires were extinguished she managed to rejoin the convoy. In her lower hold were 129 dead men. The Kyle V Johnson survived the war and was scrapped in 1975 at Panama City.

[AmiralLaurent]

Watch this site: www.whidbey.net/rohna/rohna.htm

Rhona troops were in fact sailing for CBI theater.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Also watch for mines at ports you are invading. Early on playing the Japanese that minefield at Hong Kong is a whopper! Sank almost an entire AK TF trying to pickup the 38th division there. Not enough DD escorts to destroy the mines and forgot to include MSW's to clear paths...

Ahh.. I didn't forget about the minefield there and sent in MSW as soon as I captured it.. Let them have some fun for a couple days and now its cleared..

Xargun