Kido Butai - PH or not ?

[Arkady]

Hi,

If you play non-historic first turn as japanase (with 7th December surprise on), do you send KB strike on Pearl Harbour ?

Yamamoto's plan was sunk US CVs, but they are not there as we all know now. Do you send KB anyway just for fun and for havoc on PH or do you change destination to some better place ?

I've an idea about early battle of Midway, with first turn bonus I'll land units on Midway and capture it...KB will provide cover and support until some Nell's and Betty's can operate from this fine airstrip...

Arkady

[2ndACR]

I use the non historical setting myself. Self imposed house rules are.

Port attack on Pearl Harbor only. (I always attack PH) Just can not miss out on the carnage.
No landing outside DEI, Malaya (except the Tarawa chain)

Basically the same as Historical start except a WHOLE lot more aggresive. The most landings I have
commited on turn 1 is 23, 6 more on turn 2. Thats a total of 29 different bases being invaded, most
will fall on the next day. On turn 2 I let all house rules go out the window ANYTHING goes.

Some of these attacks would be very dangerous against a human though.

I just cannot commit myself to attack what I cannot hold without a great deal of trouble or supply good.

Non Historical
very varible
Allied DC
IJN sub off
Hard level
Everything else is the same

[esteban]

I think the Japanese player should be free to go wherever he wants with KB, on turn one. The only house rule I would suggest would be that all aircraft on Japanese carriers have to be set to either port attack, airfield attack, escort, sweep or naval search on turn one. That way you can't take Kido Butai hunting for American carrier groups, whose location you ahistorically know within a few hexes. Whatever the plan, the Japanese would have been looking to bomb ports and airfields on day one, not fight a battle at sea.

Other than that, take KB and the mini-KBs wherever you want. Bomb the Prince of Wales and Repulse in port in Singapore. Pummel the U.S. Asiatic Fleet and associated merchant shipping in and around Manila. Heck, if you can figure out a way to get KB to Ceylon--pwn the Royal Navy at Colombo and Trincomalee. Of course, Battleship Row makes for a good target as well.

Some player reject this as "gamey", but there is a lot of gamey ahistorical stuff that goes on in this game. It's pretty "gamey" for the Prince of Wales and Repulse to bail out of Singapore faster than a bat out of hell. Yet they do this every game.

Historically, those ships were sent to Singapore with orders to do precisely what they did do, go after Japanese landings in Malaya. Also, the RN felt honor-bound to not leave the army "on the beach" as it were at Khota Bharu, while the navy got the hell out of Dodge. Also, nobody in a position of authority in the RN, RAF or the government thought that the Japanese could successfully launch a torpedo bombing attack over that range. As it was, the Nells were actually operating way within their torpedo bombing range, and the Japanese aircrews were far more skilled than the Allies had planned on.

So, I would say that the guide should be "is this something that could have reasonably happened in an alternate history. There were plenty of Japanese (mostly in the army) who would have liked to have Kido Butai around the SRA, since they wanted the support and control of the SRA was the major war objective. As it was, the Navy and Yamamato overuled the army and went to Pearl Harbor in an effort to land an early knockout blow on the American Navy.

[AmiralLaurent]

I agree that Allied players have a great advantage over the historical commanders. The Zero and the range of Nells and Betties were really shocks for the Allied in Dec 1941.

As for the first Japanese moves, my home rule would be:

1) Kido Butai should attack PH or not be sent to Central Pacific (no CV chase at sea) but may attack another target (Manila or Singapore)

2) British and Dutch were aware of Japanese activity (British planes follow the Japanese convoys the day before and a Catalina was shot down by Kates) but didn't move because the convoys may be directed to Thailand (as some were really) and attacking them or invading Thailand (operation Matador) would be a casus belli, with Britain as the agressor.
As for landing in British places other than Khota Baru (near Thai border), I would allow convoys to be placed to the limit of Allied naval search plus one day move. So you can made many landings on day 2 but not so much on day 1.

3) PI were less aware of what was coming but I would not allow landings in the center of the islands. The N coast of Luzon, Lesgapi, Davao are authorized landing places.

4) same for the US outpost in Pacific, any landing is authorized here for me.

Main interest for me to do an unhistorical Japanese first turn:
1) change the IJN subs positions !!!!
2) prepare the 2nd wave convoys
3) send back some useless transports
4) change the PI landings (48th Div prepared for Vigan lands in Aparri in historical move, no bombardment TF as they crater the runways for nothing)
5) cancel or reinforce Wake landings

As for sending the POW and Repulse south immediatly, I find this gamey too. My home rule will be:

_ the British fleet should sail north or east (either bombardment or surface TF, with both capital ships involved) on turn 2 or 3 towards one Malayan or Thai landing if one Malayan landing happens or 200 political points should be spent by the Allied player (how to spend them: change a unit to a command and back to its original command, you spend twice the value of its PP.. now you have to find an Allied unit value 100, 50 or 25 points to reach the 200 mark)

_ this fleet is allowed any move without spending any political point after one of the following occurs:

1) it engages a Japanese TF in surface combat
2) a Japanese sub hits one ship (not necessary a capital ship)
3) it is attacked from the air (not necessary by torpedo planes)
4) a successfull long-range (10+ hexes) torpedo attack is reported somewhere else (for example Formosa bombers hitting ships off Manila.
5) IJN CV are in the area (anywhere W of Philippines Islands)
6) More than two BB are in the area (anywhere W of Philippines Islands)

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Arkady

Hi,

If you play non-historic first turn as japanase (with 7th December surprise on), do you send KB strike on Pearl Harbour ?

Yamamoto's plan was sunk US CVs, but they are not there as we all know now. Do you send KB anyway just for fun and for havoc on PH or do you change destination to some better place ?

I've an idea about early battle of Midway, with first turn bonus I'll land units on Midway and capture it...KB will provide cover and support until some Nell's and Betty's can operate from this fine airstrip...

Arkady

The PH harbor attack, militarily, caused little damage in a strategic sense since the Allied carriers aren't there. All but two of the BB's were back in action by mid-late 1942 anyway and those were old and slow, used mainly for bombardment coverage as the newer, faster North Carolina class and later the Iowa class BB's were coming on line. And most of the destroyed or damaged aircraft were replaced in a few months anyway by the ever growing US arms industry, with better models to boot. So, strategically, its not THAT important to raid PH unless you just like carnage (and there's a small chance your suprise attack will only be 8 zeroes on fighter sweep, anyway! as the rest stand down for whatever reason???).

[RUPD3658]

If there are no house rules prohibiting it I suggest a port attck on Manilla. This will take out most of the US subs that will be harrsssing your merchants in the month ahead. It also puts you in position to intercept shipping attempting to flee PI and DEI. In addition you will not lose too many planes/pilots in the process.

I am up to Jan 42 and had great success with this strategy so far. I sank over 20 subs on 12/7 and have had only 1 transport hit by a sub since. I also took out a ton of AKs, TKs, and escorts as well as a few CA/CLs.

This is not too unrealistic a plan since the US war plan Orange assumed that the first strike would come in the PI.

[2ndACR]

It is a valid stategy. Problem is finding a player in PBEM that will allow it. They know there subs are dead meat and they
are about the only way to start hurting the IJN from the start. Of course the strike on PH is no cakewalk either.

I got bushwacked by the Enterprise and will probably lose the Akagi and it is only 9 Dec 41.

[denisonh]

As the Allies in a no house rule, non-historical start, you can accomplish a great deal by moving airgroups, forming TFs, and redeploying current TFs. Although since there is no night turn, one must be careful fleeing ships from the PI.

It is in the IJN players interest to play a vary setup with house rules or the the historical first turn.

The Allies can avoid a lot of damage the first turn.

I played a PBEM, and was seriously hurt by the loss of 67 PBYs at PH over a two day raid. That hurt.

[esteban]

Yep, but the PBYs are about the only thing you lose at Pearl that really hurts. The battleships are powerful, but their speed makes them kind of average in surface combat TFs. The Japanese rarely sink them in PH raids. I have done 5-6 PH raids in my "tutorial" games, and only once did I sink a BB, the West Virginia. I have had a couple raids where I am pretty sure that I tagged most of Battleship Row with 60-99% sys damage when it was all over.

But even so, most of these ships will be back in time to participate when the real island hopping starts, and by then it doesn't matter much to the Americans if they have 5 BBs or 10 along for the ride. Their carriers can isolate and pummel a base, and hold the IJN off at the same time. BBs just make the rubble bounce a little more.

[Wilhammer]

What esteban says is why you need a house rule to force a strike at PH, as at the time the decisiveness of airpower at sea was failry unproven - the Japanese at the time of PH and after was firmly convinced of the Big Battle of Big Gunned Warships.

PH was part of phase 1 of the whole concept, the attrition phase.

The Japanese new the americans would eventually outnumber them in big gunned warships, and that is why the strated the war; to prevent intervention to soon by the American fleet.

What is bizzare about the strategy is why they did not extend the logic to the scope of the Entire American War Effort potential. If they attacked PH to get the surface fleet attrited enough to delay the enevitable big battle, then why not consider the same for A/C, etc?

----------------------

Of course, had the Big Gun club not so dominated the IJN, then the strategy of just going south is a good alternative history.

I have considered doing a mix of this, to avoid the gamey issue of nuking those subs - strike PH and then head South to strike the fleeing and reinforcing ship traffic that will be caught out in the open.

To me, the second worse mistake the Japanese made was to us the KB to go on the Great Indian Ocean Adventure - it would of made better tactical and operational sense to support the NEI/PI Operations.

In game terms, the KB on turn 1 in the region might force the Allies to stay in port.

If you wait 3-5 days to enter the area after the thing starts, I'd think youd catch a lot more ate sea, many with troops on board.

Its easier to kill troops at sea than it is on land.

[esteban]

If I were allied, I might welcome a second days strike against PH. You can fly in some air support from your carriers, and most of the bombing will still land on those battleships, which still probably won't sink. The Japanese can expect to lose another 30-40 planes at least. By the time you finish 2-3 days of strikes against PH, Japanese air losses have become painful.

[denisonh]

I do not know about you, but my CVs are not anywhere near PH to do that. Nor would I want to get those experienced pilots in their Buffalos slaughtered.

Best to keep them intact, upgrade, and then irritate the IJN without getting sunk.

ORIGINAL: esteban

If I were allied, I might welcome a second days strike against PH. You can fly in some air support from your carriers, and most of the bombing will still land on those battleships, which still probably won't sink. The Japanese can expect to lose another 30-40 planes at least. By the time you finish 2-3 days of strikes against PH, Japanese air losses have become painful.

[hithere]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

I agree that Allied players have a great advantage over the historical commanders. The Zero and the range of Nells and Betties were really shocks for the Allied in Dec 1941.

As for the first Japanese moves, my home rule would be:

1) Kido Butai should attack PH or not be sent to Central Pacific (no CV chase at sea) but may attack another target (Manila or Singapore)

2) British and Dutch were aware of Japanese activity (British planes follow the Japanese convoys the day before and a Catalina was shot down by Kates) but didn't move because the convoys may be directed to Thailand (as some were really) and attacking them or invading Thailand (operation Matador) would be a casus belli, with Britain as the agressor.
As for landing in British places other than Khota Baru (near Thai border), I would allow convoys to be placed to the limit of Allied naval search plus one day move. So you can made many landings on day 2 but not so much on day 1.

3) PI were less aware of what was coming but I would not allow landings in the center of the islands. The N coast of Luzon, Lesgapi, Davao are authorized landing places.

4) same for the US outpost in Pacific, any landing is authorized here for me.

Main interest for me to do an unhistorical Japanese first turn:
1) change the IJN subs positions !!!!
2) prepare the 2nd wave convoys
3) send back some useless transports
4) change the PI landings (48th Div prepared for Vigan lands in Aparri in historical move, no bombardment TF as they crater the runways for nothing)
5) cancel or reinforce Wake landings

As for sending the POW and Repulse south immediatly, I find this gamey too. My home rule will be:

_ the British fleet should sail north or east (either bombardment or surface TF, with both capital ships involved) on turn 2 or 3 towards one Malayan or Thai landing if one Malayan landing happens or 200 political points should be spent by the Allied player (how to spend them: change a unit to a command and back to its original command, you spend twice the value of its PP.. now you have to find an Allied unit value 100, 50 or 25 points to reach the 200 mark)

_ this fleet is allowed any move without spending any political point after one of the following occurs:

1) it engages a Japanese TF in surface combat
2) a Japanese sub hits one ship (not necessary a capital ship)
3) it is attacked from the air (not necessary by torpedo planes)
4) a successfull long-range (10+ hexes) torpedo attack is reported somewhere else (for example Formosa bombers hitting ships off Manila.
5) IJN CV are in the area (anywhere W of Philippines Islands)
6) More than two BB are in the area (anywhere W of Philippines Islands)

I do not see why this would be gamey. is it any worse that changing the Japanese sub doc (which was ingrained into the navy) or changing who assaulted where? if you someone was going to go that far...might as well make a house rule that on June 4th.....you have to send 4 fleet carriers to midway with airfield/port attack only and 20% CAP until the US gets a strike in.

Not to single you out, but alot of people complain that Japan has a up hill battle...well, they did, but then people forget that on June 7th, they have 4 fleet carriers (unless VERY unlucky [:)] ) and all those pilots that they did not have historically. It is very easy to see what does not benefit the side you are playing, while ignoring what does help.