Preventing the fall of Rangoon

[vonmoltke]

Well, I've made it to 1 March in a grand campaign. Singapore and the Phillipines are gone, but I'm fighting tooth and nail to keep Java.

I decided to draw a defensive line in Burma anchored on Rangoon. I have 15,500 infantry, 300 tanks, I don't remember how many artillery pieces, and 200 aircraft, including the Tigers, in Rangoon. The Japanese chased my troops out of their forward positions in Moulmein and straight into Rangoon. One day later they couldn't leave faster. [:D]

SInce then they have been camping one hex away, building up their strength and providing excellent live fire targets for my flyboys. [:'(] I'm currently launching a little counterattack to test their combat power.

So, after reading the posts of a number of people who think losing Rangoon is a foregone conclusion, I wanted to know how many of you are trying to hold it. I'm having a decent amount of success so far. I did lose Singapore early, about mid January, and some of Rangoon's defenders were in fact evac'd from Singapore, as was most of the air power.

[AmiralLaurent]

Are you playing AI ?

As a Japanese player against you, I will do the following.

1) gather troops N of Rangoon, enough to create a blocking force, and continue to invade Burma
2) send my BB bomb Rangoon to the ground and use all airfields in range to base Zeroes and win air superiority over Rangoon. Once Singapore is Japanese and Zeroes are in Tovoy and Moulmein, I don't see how Rangoon airforce may survive.
3) in this situation, any convoy trying to get to Rangoon will probably end on the sea floor
4) repeat 3 with more land bombers once the Allied fighter units are badly hit or gone
5) invade Rangoon and count the POWs.

But I will take Java before Burma anyway, what countsis when the Palembang area is out of range from Allied planes first.

[vonmoltke]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Are you playing AI ?

Yes.

1) gather troops N of Rangoon, enough to create a blocking force, and continue to invade Burma

I anticipated this, which is why I have a secondary defensive line building in central Burma, and a tertiary line building at the Indian border.

2) send my BB bomb Rangoon to the ground and use all airfields in range to base Zeroes and win air superiority over Rangoon. Once Singapore is Japanese and Zeroes are in Tovoy and Moulmein, I don't see how Rangoon airforce may survive.

I forgot to mention the two, soon to be three, British battleships permanently stationed at Rangoon. I sortee them to Tovoy and Moulmein every time Japanese troops appear there. Otherwise, they just guard Rangoon.

But I will take Java before Burma anyway, what countsis when the Palembang area is out of range from Allied planes first.

Which, at the point I am at, isn't true, and the AI is having a really hard go of pushing me out, even with KB supporting.

I'm not saying my plan is bulletproof; if I thought that, I wouldn't have backups or backups for the backups. [:D] I just don't think taking Rangoon is necessarily as easy for the Japanese as many people think.

Edit: Dangit, why do the tags have to be case sensitive? [8|]

[worr]

ORIGINAL: vonmoltke
So, after reading the posts of a number of people who think losing Rangoon is a foregone conclusion, I wanted to know how many of you are trying to hold it. I'm having a decent amount of success so far. I did lose Singapore early, about mid January, and some of Rangoon's defenders were in fact evac'd from Singapore, as was most of the air power.

Historically, the prime ministery of Australia wheeled around a division of Aussie INF when he learned Singapore was being abandoned by the British. He already was threatening to pull back three divisions from North Africa as it appeared the British were depending upon the Americans to protect their interests in the Far East.

It would be interesting to have a scenario with that division back in play.

There doesn't seem to be any benefit of defending Rangoon on the approaches, as you cannot dig in etiher...though in reality that proved a disaster to the Indian Division that did it.

Worr, out

[hithere]

it is 27 march in my game and i still hold rangoon...japan has about 76,000 troops to my 50,000, 600 AFV, 400 guns...but i have the 50,000 in a blocking position just North of Rangoon. with 4 hurricane, 1 warhawk, and 1 brewster figher group, the AI is having a hard time bombing. also I have the 2 bleimen (?) bomber groups hitting either Tavoy or the AI troops....at the base above that I have B-17's also alternating. I also have the UK 2 div at the base north of rangoon ready to march down...
..................
I do have this game on hold though because i don't want to win, then have to restart.....only to lose it all by Jan42!!

[esteban]

Burma would be tough to hold against an opponent with a pulse. Communications back to India are almost non-existant through the jungle trails (I wonder how the heck Slim took Burma from the North, back in 44/45.) And sailing anything to Rangoon would be dicey against a person.

If I were suddenly dropped into the place of your opponent:
1. Finish Java and Timor first, it's more important.

2. Send Kido Butai into the Indian Ocean to cut your supply lines and sink shipping.

3. Cut Rangoon off to the north, or at least seriously threaten too. Drawing you out of Rangoon, or into sending more troops to Burma

4. Pummel Rangoon with airstrikes.

5. Take troops from NEI and Japan, load them in ships, and with Kido Butai and the surface fleet supporting, land a Japanese corps at Calcutta.

6. Watch Burma wither and die, while I run around the North Indian plain.

As the Japanese, I would welcome the allies trying to hold Burma in that kind of force. The Royal Navy is too weak to prevent the Bay of Bengal from becoming a Japanese lake, if at any time the Japanese player decides that he wants it to be one. The Americans and Aussies are too weak to do more than take a couple islands in the Gilberts in response. They probably don't even have the juice to keep a lasting foothold in the Solomons in March/April 1942.

Sending the American fleet into the Bay of Bengal, far from their bases and close to major Japanese air and naval bases in Sumatra and the Kra Peninsula is a losing proposition.

The best thing you could say about this for the Allies would be that the they can consolidate the Aussie/Yank supply line and start work on either a campaign through the Gilberts or Santa Cruz/lower Solomons. But the Brits would take a major beathing, and the Japanese would end up with both Burma and Calcutta/Dacca/Diamond Head.

[denisonh]

Very good point. The allies must keep enough force in India to prevent just that until reinforcements arrive.

The Allied player is tempted to throw the UK division that arrives in January into Burma. Not a good idea.

I keep adequate forces to protect Ceylon, Calcutta and Karachi early on, as an IJN PBEM plyer is likely to do just that.

That is something akin to what the British did historically. India is far more valuable than Burma.

ORIGINAL: esteban

Burma would be tough to hold against an opponent with a pulse. Communications back to India are almost non-existant through the jungle trails (I wonder how the heck Slim took Burma from the North, back in 44/45.) And sailing anything to Rangoon would be dicey against a person.

If I were suddenly dropped into the place of your opponent:
1. Finish Java and Timor first, it's more important.

2. Send Kido Butai into the Indian Ocean to cut your supply lines and sink shipping.

3. Cut Rangoon off to the north, or at least seriously threaten too. Drawing you out of Rangoon, or into sending more troops to Burma

4. Pummel Rangoon with airstrikes.

5. Take troops from NEI and Japan, load them in ships, and with Kido Butai and the surface fleet supporting, land a Japanese corps at Calcutta.

6. Watch Burma wither and die, while I run around the North Indian plain.

As the Japanese, I would welcome the allies trying to hold Burma in that kind of force. The Royal Navy is too weak to prevent the Bay of Bengal from becoming a Japanese lake, if at any time the Japanese player decides that he wants it to be one. The Americans and Aussies are too weak to do more than take a couple islands in the Gilberts in response. They probably don't even have the juice to keep a lasting foothold in the Solomons in March/April 1942.

Sending the American fleet into the Bay of Bengal, far from their bases and close to major Japanese air and naval bases in Sumatra and the Kra Peninsula is a losing proposition.

The best thing you could say about this for the Allies would be that the they can consolidate the Aussie/Yank supply line and start work on either a campaign through the Gilberts or Santa Cruz/lower Solomons. But the Brits would take a major beathing, and the Japanese would end up with both Burma and Calcutta/Dacca/Diamond Head.

[Raverdave]

Yup, Rangoon is a lost cause against a human player. I tend to just abandon the place and concentrate on holding Burma from Akyab across to Mandalay with the British 2nd Div as the ready reserve back at the Indian boarder. A GOOD IJN player WILL do a KB in the Bay of Bengal and there is nothing that you can do to stop it, apart from running your RN fleet north to keep it out of harms way. While this will "give" the B of B to KB on a plate, remember that they cannot afford to keep a large force in the area for long as there are other pressing issuses else where for the IJN player. As the allied player don't forget to use those Chinese divisions just arcross the border, march them strait into Burma (Yes there are some Chinese units that have the HQs that will allow you to do so at nil cost in PPs.

As the Allies Burma must be held or at least fought for tooth and nail.......as the IJN player you would have to be mad not to try.

[vonmoltke]

I understand that a human player would be much more aggressive in attacking Rangoon. With the early mistakes I made in this game, a human would already have Java, to boot.

Cutting off Rangoon has already been done; I expected that and have been stockpiling supplies. There's a month's worth right now.

Bombing Rangoon has been done; all it has accomplished so far is padding the kill counts of AVG and 135 Sqn. I know it would be different if there were Zeros escorting the bombers instead of Oscars, but they're all down bombing Java right now.

Ironically, the lack of aggressiveness is hindering my plans. I want KB in the Bay of Bengal. I want Japanese air assets concentrating on Burma. I want both as far away from Australia and the Central Pacific as I can get them. I want the Japanese distracted so I can pull off an early invasion of the Marshalls. That move is going to be risky enough as it is without Japanese carriers to worry about.

Y'all probably think I'm a complete nutter now. [:'(]

[Raverdave]

ORIGINAL: vonmoltke



Y'all probably think I'm a complete nutter now. [:'(]

Nah not at all, you sound like someone whom is having a ball with the AI. A word of caution here, I am of the view that playing the AI teaches you you bad habits for when it comes time to play a human. Just keep that in mind.

[esteban]

ORIGINAL: vonmoltke

Y'all probably think I'm a complete nutter now. [:'(]

No, not at all. But the AI plays differently than an experienced person does. I think every player should first learn to beat the AI consistently, because that shows you have a the ability to use the game interface and some ideas of basic tactics.

However, toss a lot of your behaviors towards the AI out the window, when facing a decent human player.

-A decent human player will almost never send ships into an unsupported attack or transit, like the AI does. And when they do send in an unsupported attack, or loiter within range of your bombers, be prepared to find out it is a diversion or a trap. For example, the AI will often just send a convoy of merchantmen into bomber range. If a person does this, it is often a "bait and switch" tactic, where you see a merchant convoy coming, set your bombers to naval attack for the next turn, and then when next turn comes, the helpless merchant convoy has sailed out of range, and been replaced by a carrier task force with decks stacked with additional fighters, and surrounded by AA cruisers.

-A good human player actually concentrates aircraft and submarines along paths he knows you will take. For instance, if you need to run supplies or resources too or from a particular base, be prepared to run into a lot of submarines.

-A good player will know how to make your own sub ambushes painful. Setting up a wolfpack outside Palembang, because you KNOW that sooner or later a fat tanker convoy will show up to cart away the goods? Be prepared to find that when the moment of truth arrives, 4-5 airgroups set to ASW search suddenly show up, and your fat tanker group is escorted by about 10 DDs and escorts with another dedicated hunter/killer ASW group on top of that. One of the worst feelings in this game is when your submarines attack the wrong convoy, and you get to watch about a dozen escorts line up to make depth charge runs at you.

So, if you do decide to play PBEM, think of your prior AI pwnage experience as merely a tutorial in how to use the game interface and the basics on how to use your forces.

[sven6345789]

Slim invaded Burma by relying on air supply. Since the target hex no longer needs to have an airfield like in UV, you can support and supply an invasion via air transports. This counts for the japanese as well as the allies.

Rangoon has bad communications. havn't gotten this far yet but a blocking position at Raheng and Moulmain might be the best. You will loose these bases. Once this happens, try to install a new defensive line beyond the irravadi (or so) river. There is no way to hold Burma against a determined japanese attack. Supply lines are against you in 1942

[vonmoltke]

ORIGINAL: esteban

No, not at all. But the AI plays differently than an experienced person does. I think every player should first learn to beat the AI consistently, because that shows you have a the ability to use the game interface and some ideas of basic tactics.

That's what I've been doing in this game, in addition to losing the bad habits carried over from UV. [:'(]

-A decent human player will almost never send ships into an unsupported attack or transit, like the AI does. And when they do send in an unsupported attack, or loiter within range of your bombers, be prepared to find out it is a diversion or a trap. For example, the AI will often just send a convoy of merchantmen into bomber range. If a person does this, it is often a "bait and switch" tactic, where you see a merchant convoy coming, set your bombers to naval attack for the next turn, and then when next turn comes, the helpless merchant convoy has sailed out of range, and been replaced by a carrier task force with decks stacked with additional fighters, and surrounded by AA cruisers.

I was rather shocked when the Japanese AI started doing that. Definitely not what I expected.

-A good human player actually concentrates aircraft and submarines along paths he knows you will take. For instance, if you need to run supplies or resources too or from a particular base, be prepared to run into a lot of submarines.

-A good player will know how to make your own sub ambushes painful. Setting up a wolfpack outside Palembang, because you KNOW that sooner or later a fat tanker convoy will show up to cart away the goods? Be prepared to find that when the moment of truth arrives, 4-5 airgroups set to ASW search suddenly show up, and your fat tanker group is escorted by about 10 DDs and escorts with another dedicated hunter/killer ASW group on top of that. One of the worst feelings in this game is when your submarines attack the wrong convoy, and you get to watch about a dozen escorts line up to make depth charge runs at you.

Those are almost contradicting points, since I would use the latter to counter the former in the same way my opponent does. It then comes down to who can maintain their sub patrols and ASW longer.

So, if you do decide to play PBEM, think of your prior AI pwnage experience as merely a tutorial in how to use the game interface and the basics on how to use your forces.

I try not to, and I was fairly successful at not allowing AI experience to taint my approach to a human in UV. I still approach the AI like its a decent human and not totally brain dead, but it doesn't always work.

[vonmoltke]

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

Rangoon has bad communications. havn't gotten this far yet but a blocking position at Raheng and Moulmain might be the best. You will loose these bases. Once this happens, try to install a new defensive line beyond the irravadi (or so) river. There is no way to hold Burma against a determined japanese attack. Supply lines are against you in 1942

That was the plan, but the Japanese got north too fast and I had to abandon those positions early. I decided, with the troops and supplies in place, that I'd try to hold Rangoon anyway.

Rangoon has, at this point, enough supplies to hold out for a month and enough fighter cover to stave off fairly large raids. I have no doubt that a human player would be concentrating much more air on Rangoon, but I don't think a human would take it in its current state much more easily than the AI is, nor could a human have effectively stopped my buildup without bypassing areas of the SRA.

[Top Cat]

There's a huge difference between playing the AI and playing a human opponent.

My Japanese AI opponent moved on Rangoon with 4 divisions + a dozen misc. units in March 42. I simply moved a couple of weak Chinese divisions from Mandalay onto the road behind him, cutting his supply line. Game over.

By May I've destroyed the best part of 5+ divisions and have Tavoy, Moulmein and Rahaeng back in my hands and will be heading down the Malaysian penisula soon.

No human opponent could possibly fall for it.

Cheers
Top Cat