A bit of WitP fun, take a guess, everyone welcome.

[pompack]

For most of the examples, the ML Ikitsushima played the same role that the Rawilpindi (sp?) played in real life. One very outclassed pseudo-warship steams directly toward the enemy while the merchies all scatter.


With that said, I am beginning to feel that this scatter tactic is a little TOO effective. I believe that the algorithms result in over-concentration; while I didn't post a prediction I too felt that 3-5 would have been the expected result

[Thayne]

Sorry . . .

If you come across a convoy, the enemy ships scatter. You chase down one or two ships and spend enough time putting shells into them that it actually does sink. By that time, the rest of the convoy is over the horizon.

Using spotter planes, you may be able to see the rest. You begin pursuit. You have to make up for a lot of ground, because this ship ex hypothesi took off in some different direction from the ship you hunted.

Do not expect your victims to maintain radio contact in these situations. They know who you went after -- in what direction. When you go after the second or third one, that news gets reported to the others, who make the appropraite course corretions.

When you catch and sink this one, the others are now still further away.

That's about it. Three enemy ships, maximum.

Anything more, and you are requiring that the "AI" simply forget the best way that people in this situation have to save themselves.

The results sound perfectly reasonable to me . . . unless you decide to split up your task force. Which you could have done before engaging the enemy, by the way, unless the encounter is a complete surprise. Just create 15 individual task forces that all happen to be going in the same direction.

[Williamb]

Sor got my facts wrong it was the Admiral Scheer and she got the Jervis bay and 5 merchies


Admiral Scheer 1940 - Royal Navy Single Ship Action

5th - Loss of the "Jervis Bay" - Halifax/UK convoy HX84 with 37 ships and its solitary escort, armed merchant cruiser "Jervis Bay" (Capt Fegen) is attacked by the 11in-gunned pocket battleship "Admiral Scheer" in mid-Atlantic. The convoy is ordered to scatter as "JERVIS BAY" heads for the "Scheer", guns firing. The end is in no doubt and she goes down, but her sacrifice saves all but five of the merchant ships. Capt Edward Fegen RN is posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.

It is in this action that tanker "San Demetrio" is damaged by gunfire and abandoned. Later re-boarded by a few of her crew, they get her into port in spite of the greatest difficulties and privations.

"Admiral Scheer" heads for the central and later the South Atlantic.

[doomonyou]

sorry to double but this must have come up while I was typing.

I

ORIGINAL: Thayne

This actually is not a senseless result.

The standard tactic for a bunch of freighters who get jumped by an enemy task force is to scatter. They head off in different directions. The attackers have the ability to get a small number of ships. By then, the rest are gone.

The attackers have the option of splitting up their force -- one ship chases each enemy frieghter. But, that has its own risks.

I think these results are quite realistic.

Thayne

This makes me nutz.

If the freighters scatter with thier speeds of 13 from DD and CL with speeds of 33 several of them aren't getting out of visual range too fast and are getting wasted.

Logically if the ship really do scatter enough to get away from a reasonably spread out groups of angry ships that can in many cases go 250% of thier speed, then how the hell is it that the next moring all of these ships are back in perfect order?

The example above is a group of what 10 ships chasing say fiffteen cargo ships? and a Hex is 60 miles across right? So even assuming the most dispertion possible (one cargo ship every four miles, which btw renders the ships utterly undefended from subs) that combat group should be comfortable breaking into three groups of one CL and two DDs with one doubled with the CA and those packets should wipe the floor with half the convoy.

Remember that my objection is ESPECIALLY VALID in broad daylight without rain. From the mast of a CL you should have probably 15000-20000 yards in all directions. How many cargo ships going 35% of your speed are you going to let get away?

[Thayne]

Doomonyou:

There are many issues to be considered.

A task force will travel the speed of its slowest ship. Perhaps it is 33, perhaps not. I do not know.

You burn up a lot of fuel travelling at that speed. Is it worth it?

Remember, you are in hostile waters. You need to be on the look out for enemy support ships, enemy planes, and enemy submarines. The merchant ships have reason to travel at full speed in whatever direction they pick.

Your task force, on the other hand, has less justification. This kind of wild charge after a defenseless little ship is exactly the way to set up an ambush (either by submarine or surface fleet). Or (since you are not practicing any type of defensive maneuvering and sonar does not work at these high speeds), you could just be setting you up for a nice torpedo in the midship.

Now, combat results are likely going to very. There will be battles with more enemy casualties, and battles with fewer. These results reflect the different tactics that the two forces decided to use, their effectiveness, and a bit of luck. So, sometimes, the results will be more ships sunk. Sometimes less.

Now, I agree that it would be difficult for the ships to form up again in perfect formation the next day. I am not saying that everything is perfectly modeled. But, it makes more sense than people are giving it credit for.

Sure, it would be fun to slaugher a gaggle of defenseless little merchant ships.

[Williamb]

Tyically a Task Force of smaller ships would be divided up into subgroups. just example WWII battles.

For example such as in the Guadacanal battles or the battle of java Sea the allies had a vanguard of destroyers then a column of cruisers then a rear group of destroyers.

The Van Guard would rush in first launching torpedos. Then they'd break off and the Crusiers would fire on the ships as they zig zag away from the destroyers torpedos. Then the rear destroyers would launch a second strike and lay smoke as the column retired. Or so the stragety was to go.

So they never acted as a solid group of ships.

[Thayne]

ORIGINAL: William Amos

Tyically a Task Force of smaller ships would be divided up into subgroups. just example WWII battles.

For example such as in the Guadacanal battles or the battle of java Sea the allies had a vanguard of destroyers then a column of cruisers then a rear group of destroyers.

The Van Guard would rush in first launching torpedos. Then they'd break off and the Crusiers would fire on the ships as they zig zag away from the destroyers torpedos. Then the rear destroyers would launch a second strike and lay smoke as the column retired. Or so the stragety was to go.

So they never acted as a solid group of ships.

Sorry, but this sounds very much as if they were acting like a solid groups of ships. They were not all doing the same thing. But no captain had much discretion in what they would be doing in the battle either. Each has to follow their role in the script, or things would get confused and the enemy would take advantage of the resulting chaos.

Now, if you want to say that 1 ship sunk and a few others sinking is a bit light, I would not have much to say against that. It's a judgment call.

If you want to say that every single member of the convoy should have ended up on the ocean floor . . . um, no. Not likely. Not unless the task force stumbled on the keystone cops of merchant shipdome.

[Platoonist]

Just out of curiousity what are were inspiration/leadership ratings of the respective fleet commanders? Would re-running this scenario with an Arliegh Burke type change the results?

[Williamb]

Yeah they had a battle plan but some descretion was left to the division leaders.

Also looking back at the actual battle such as the Admiral Scheer one you can see a lone BATTLESHIP (Albet a smaller pocket battleship) was able to kill an armed Cruiser in battle THEN still hunt down 5 merchants and kill them also. So isnt far fetched for a fast group of ships to get a large number of kills in a battle like this.

I guess the point is dont send your merchants off alone into hostile waters.

[doomonyou]

but that is the point. In this game you can send your convoys anywhere you want protected by a MSW or a PG and even if they encounter 10 warships (nearly one warship for every merchantman, each warship at least 100% faster then thier prey) in broad daylight they stand very little chance of the amount of loss they would probably take from encountering 10 good Jap torpedo bombers.

Is this the relationship for surface combat from WWII?


BTW I am NOT saying that every encounter should be a Little big horn on water, but also let us remember that in both of my examples and in the one provided here, these were air-spotted convoys in daylight!. No BB's or CVs spotted etc. They were already reconned.

So yes a warship captain in those circumstances would likely stick it in and break it off at the hilt.

That convoy should have taken it worse from 10 PTs much less 10 real warships.

Why does this matter? because this is a historical simulation. And having surface combat task forces incapable of effectively hurting unarmed ships in daylight because they can "scatter" is silly.

Why are we imputing such impressive coordination to the merchies (meaning being able to outfox faster ships that can sink you at five miles distance) but a combat task force is forced to what, form a calvary square and volley fire by squad?

In the scenario provided the only thing that would save some of the ships is that there were enough of them that the warships would take enough time to destory 6 or seven of them plus the escort suicide charge that the rest would get away into the approaching darkness later that day.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: doomonyou

but that is the point. In this game you can send your convoys anywhere you want protected by a MSW or a PG and even if they encounter 10 warships (nearly one warship for every merchantman, each warship at least 100% faster then thier prey) in broad daylight they stand very little chance of the amount of loss they would probably take from encountering 10 good Jap torpedo bombers.

Is this the relationship for surface combat from WWII?


BTW I am NOT saying that every encounter should be a Little big horn on water, but also let us remember that in both of my examples and in the one provided here, these were air-spotted convoys in daylight!. No BB's or CVs spotted etc. They were already reconned.

So yes a warship captain in those circumstances would likely stick it in and break it off at the hilt.

That convoy should have taken it worse from 10 PTs much less 10 real warships.

Why does this matter? because this is a historical simulation. And having surface combat task forces incapable of effectively hurting unarmed ships in daylight because they can "scatter" is silly.

Why are we imputing such impressive coordination to the merchies (meaning being able to outfox faster ships that can sink you at five miles distance) but a combat task force is forced to what, form a calvary square and volley fire by squad?

In the scenario provided the only thing that would save some of the ships is that there were enough of them that the warships would take enough time to destory 6 or seven of them plus the escort suicide charge that the rest would get away into the approaching darkness later that day.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[Montrose]

Lots of interesting responses, thanks. I'm currently trying to think of a way to defeat the system and get a realistic result out of this, and am seeing a strange oddity, but in the meanwhile to the 'scatter' theories. My limited descriptive powers are evidently not up to the task, so attached is a screenshot of Davao, and Rockwells task force steaming in to the attack. I absolutely don't buy into any 'scatter' theory for the following reasons:

1) Geography - The only way for a task force get out of Davao is to attempt to sail past any approaching aggressor to the South. Narrow access and the confines of terrain preclude any scatter attempt.
2) Mission - The Japanese must be reasonably close together to enable the unloading 56th brigade to maintain some cohesion and get to their objective. They will be close to the base at the top of the bay, not spread about all over the hex.
3) The Manual - There is absolutely no mention of any 'scatter' tactics for disadvantaged TFs at all in the PDF manual.
4) Speeds - When I checked the Japanese in head-to-head mode, their ships which had already been hit by the CD guns were only capable of 5 knots. Some of their intact AKs could only do 11 knots to begin with. Injured ships in a confined space cannot simply sail away from hostile ships which are seven times faster.
5) Evidence - There is no evidence at all that the convoy has scattered. It is simply and immediately sitting in the adjacent hex, intact. That in itself is questionable, if ships can only do 5 knots it should take 12 hours to get that far.
6) TF content - There are a lot ships. It is not conceivable that 90% of them could avoid each other in that bay even if they all wanted to.
7) Visibility - The action started at 25,000 yards. Ships can see for miles, and if that wasn't enough, several of the Japanese ships are already burning.
8) History - Scattering in hostile waters even when possible can be disasterous. PQ-17 had it easy compared to the position that the Japanese are in here.
9) Regional threat - There are no Japanese bases anywhere near. Davao itself is a friendly American base, Rear Admiral Rockwell is not under any pressure to get out of there, and can chase any supposed attempted scatter at his leisure.

Doomonyou and William Amos have made good points I feel, and I laughed at Doomonyou's description of the much seen massive overkill. For Platoonist Rockwell is rated at 68, he was one of the best I had. I'm currently trying to split the TF down into two or three ship components, thinking that each mini-TF will engage and cause lots more damage, but there is another engine problem with this approach. However, it's fun to play around with.

[Top Cat]

I too feel that the convoy scattering is a bit overdone. If conditions are poor then fine, ships can slink away. But 15 slooow ships running away from say 10 fast ones is a bit rich. If the slow ships scatter then so can the fast ones.

Just read that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sank or captured 15 unescorted ships in 48 hours (15th and 16th Mar. 1941). So if 2 capital ships can run down 15 transports then Montrose's 4 crusiers and half a dozen destroyers should have had a field day amongst all those transports.

Cheers
Top Cat

[Luskan]

One thing I'm good at is the surface combat bit of WITP/UV.

What you find are different admirals and different tf makeups vary your results greatly.

1. Unless you are bombarding, never put more than 2 or 3 at most Bb in the same TF. They seem to get in each other's way and these big boys of the fight don't do much. Put 1 bb, 2 ca, 4 dd in a tf and stick an agressive admiral in command and you've got a winner.

2. TFs that are way too big never fight well. 25 ships - only if you're fighting another 25 ship tf. 3 cas and 5 dds would have sunk the MSW and ML first (escorts die to protect fleeing transports) and then closed the range and polished off at least half.

So the moral is, if you've got that many ships, send in 3 small tfs instead of 1 big one and watch the carnage.

Vs transports, all dds (nimble) can be tough to beat too.

[Montrose]

Sorry Luskan, but splitting into smaller task forces isn't working - I'll post full details later [:)]

[geozero]

50 hits on one ship??????????

That ship should have sunk or exploded by the time it received 10-20 hits IMHO. I doubt that Allied forces would continue to bombard a sinking shio with crew trying to escape overboard... a little something called the Geneva Convention.

Anyway, hardly did US ships continue to blast a sinking ship, I have not read or seen any historical film footage showing that.

So IMHO, there should have been way more sinkings. Targeting is way off...

[rhohltjr]

Map detail doesn't show Samal Island so Japanese fleet not hiding behind that.

What was the experience level of the ship crews of the Allied fleet?
[X(] Allied ships crewed by infants and toddlers while all Japanese ships crewed
entirely by sailors named Yamamoto?[X(]

[carnifex]

I don't know about Surface Combats, but the Air portion of the targetting routine is working quite well.

I was trying to evacuate some Dutch units out of Java. I marched them to some western port (name i forget) and every couple of turns a transport TF pulls in, I spend the PP's to convert the HQ on the unit, and the Dutch load and are sailed to Derby.

I get the 1st and 2nd Dutch brigades out, and I go back to get the rest. DEI is heating up, with Sumatra and Borneo gone, and Java itself suffering from landings. Time is running out so I send back 3 TF's to get what they can and get the hell out before the Betty's are rebased to Java.

At this time I detect the KB moving west off Darwin, with a Surface TF and a Transport TF behind.

Darwin is mercilessly bombed, and then the KB moves west, bombing severely each of the four cities on the north coast. My land based air get's off one maybe two ineffective strikes before the rest of the planes are destroyed on the ground.

The Surface TF and the Transport TF break north to invade some Dutch island. KB steams northwest, toward my transport TF's.

I go into full panic mode; one TF loads the 4th Brigade (I wanted to get a better unit out but I was out of PP and couldn't hang around to wait to accumulate more), the other empty TF's hover nearby to absorb any hits on empty transports, not ones full of Dutch soldiers.

I load what I can, cancel the rest (hey, good luck in the internment camp), and steam out directly west into deep water, away from prying floatplane eyes.

No luck.

Two turns later the KB shows up sixty miles from the transport TF's. Such is the rotten luck when you are moving at 10 knots.

Over the next two days each of my TF's is bombed, bombed, and bombed again. To add to the rotten luck, I forget to adjust course for my regularly scheduled supply TF heading from Karachi to Perth. Twenty five ships all laden with supplies and cargo, steaming directly for the rampaging KB.

I pray that the pilots will target one TF to death, or not bomb the whole thing at least. No dice. Each TF is hit in turn, and every ship in each TF is targetted.

Before the raid I had 3 TF's, each with 10AK, 3MSW, 2DD, and 1 CL. Also had 1 TF with 15 AK's, 5TK, and 5DD. (yes I know my escorts were a little light but c'mon I was in the backwater, just need some ASW action, who the hell would have thought the KB would show up WEST of Java?)

After the raid I had 2 AK's with remnants of the 4th Dutch Brigade and two hurt escort ships. The Karachi-Perth TF suffered 50% sunk and rest hightailed it back north to Ceylon.

What I really needed was that bug where all the 100 torpedo planes go after ONE ship

[UncleBuck]

HEY! Thaks for teh help but get your own Signature Pic! [8D]

I think the Surface TF not sinking all of the transports trapped in a restricted bay, with minefields, who cares if they were there own or enemy would have been toast. Since they laid a mine field of there own, the restricted the allowed movement in the bay even more. Now take in account eh CD guns and just where do these transports scatter to? They all should have been sunk or left burning hulks tied to piers or beached.

UB

[crsutton]

What is Rockwells command ratings and is he a cautions commander? This certainly can have an effect. The Japanese had a cautious commander at Leyte Gulf. Look what happened there. Course, he had a lot more to deal with.