T34 with 57mm Gun?

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Mon Nov 26, 2001 11:39 pm

Just saw a photo that is claimed to be a T34/57
destroyed in 1941. Is this possible? Was there such a thing?

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Mon Nov 26, 2001 11:53 pm

A quick search on the internet suggests that there is a T34/57 -41!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Can it be that some T34's were equipped with the ZiS 57mm AT gun instead of the standard barrel?
If that's the case, then why? Better performance? Shortage of barrels? Was this common practice? (can't have been, seeing as I've never heard of it <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

Good observation Redleg. This is interesting. Any Russian Tank buff out there, enlighten us!

Don Doom · Post by **Don Doom** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 12:12 am

If my mind servers me right there was only one built, and was lost in or around the battles for moscow.

http://www.algonet.se/~toriert/t34.htm

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Don Doom ]</p>

miharme · Post by **miharme** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 1:20 am

Such tank indeed existed, and several were made. Check the following URL:

http://history.vif2.ru/t34_57.html

An exellent site on Soviet millitary in the WWII.

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 1:31 am

Originally posted by Mikko Härmeinen:
Such tank indeed existed, and several were made. Check the following URL:

http://history.vif2.ru/t34_57.html

An exellent site on Soviet millitary in the WWII.

Does this mean also that the 57mm Selfpropelled guns should have a higher rarity since they use the same 57mm gun?

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:45 am

I am thinking that would have been one NASTY tank.

And the Germans were concerned about the T34/76... hmmmpf...

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:49 am

That site is incredible.

http://history.vif2.ru/index.html

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:28 am

A great site, indeed.
Maybe I will produce a scenario that features a few T34/57s in it. Could be interesting.

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:30 am

Originally posted by Belisarius:
A quick search on the internet suggests that there is a T34/57 -41!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Can it be that some T34's were equipped with the ZiS 57mm AT gun instead of the standard barrel?
If that's the case, then why? Better performance? Shortage of barrels? Was this common practice? (can't have been, seeing as I've never heard of it <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

Good observation Redleg. This is interesting. Any Russian Tank buff out there, enlighten us!

The 57mm armed T-34 was a Russian experiment in mating a more effective anti tank gun to the T-34 chasis. While a very good weapon against tanks the 57mm had an inferior HE preformance vs the standard 76.2mm round more familiar to T-34 fans, thus the idea was dropped in favor of the 76er. Remember at the time the Russians needed to maximize tank production to make up for their huge losses and continuing attrition rate. They could'nt afford to build a bunch of varients so the T-34/57, like other experiments became a footnote in the vehicle's long history

As the Russian military zone author has stated in the past, its a common misconception that tanks mostly fight other tanks. That is untrue, more often than not tanks fight against infantry and their supporting artillery thus a good HE capability can be just as important as AP preformance. Just ask the British with the woes they suffered in the desert with their HE'less 2pounder weapons.

Don Doom · Post by **Don Doom** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 6:16 am

Originally posted by Nikademus:

The 57mm armed T-34 was a Russian experiment in mating a more effective anti tank gun to the T-34 chasis. While a very good weapon against tanks the 57mm had an inferior HE preformance vs the standard 76.2mm round more familiar to T-34 fans, thus the idea was dropped in favor of the 76er. Remember at the time the Russians needed to maximize tank production to make up for their huge losses and continuing attrition rate. They could'nt afford to build a bunch of varients so the T-34/57, like other experiments became a footnote in the vehicle's long history

As the Russian military zone author has stated in the past, its a common misconception that tanks mostly fight other tanks. That is untrue, more often than not tanks fight against infantry and their supporting artillery thus a good HE capability can be just as important as AP preformance. Just ask the British with the woes they suffered in the desert with their HE'less 2pounder weapons.

I believe the 57mm was dropped in favor of the 85mm and not the 76mm. As they already had the T34/76 since 39/40 <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Don Doom ]</p>

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 9:31 am

Originally posted by Don Doom:

I believe the 57mm was dropped in favor of the 85mm and not the 76mm. As they already had the T34/76 since 39/40 <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Don Doom ]

Yes and no. The 57mm gun was so horribly expensive that it could not compete with the 76mm. That and the poor HE performance.
BTW, I have had the T-34/57 types in my OOB since september <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Not a complicated editing job.

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:57 am

Originally posted by Nikademus:

The 57mm armed T-34 was a Russian experiment in mating a more effective anti tank gun to the T-34 chasis. While a very good weapon against tanks the 57mm had an inferior HE preformance vs the standard 76.2mm round more familiar to T-34 fans, thus the idea was dropped in favor of the 76er. Remember at the time the Russians needed to maximize tank production to make up for their huge losses and continuing attrition rate. They could'nt afford to build a bunch of varients so the T-34/57, like other experiments became a footnote in the vehicle's long history

As the Russian military zone author has stated in the past, its a common misconception that tanks mostly fight other tanks. That is untrue, more often than not tanks fight against infantry and their supporting artillery thus a good HE capability can be just as important as AP preformance. Just ask the British with the woes they suffered in the desert with their HE'less 2pounder weapons.

I agree with this...the German PZ III during the late war was also armed with the short 75 mm for support, because such gun is more general purpose and allows fire more type of ammo as such more effective than those specialise gun which are only effective against tank and maybe bunker.

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Wed Nov 28, 2001 4:36 am

Originally posted by Don Doom:

I believe the 57mm was dropped in favor of the 85mm and not the 76mm. As they already had the T34/76 since 39/40 <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Don Doom ]

no, the date of the action involving that one T-34 that went into combat with it was during the battle of Moscow in the winter of 41/42 and the first prototypes were actually built in the summer of 1940

The Russian military zone has more complete details. it looks like there were at least a handful converted by the summer of 43, but the type was never in danger of displacing the 76.2mm gun due to it's specialization (AT power, at the expense of HE power)

http://history.vif2.ru/t34_57.html

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Thu Nov 29, 2001 9:01 am

SO is this a good time to bring up the T-43?
Yes, not a typo...

Supposed to replace the T-34 but when the Russians got hold of a captured Tiger near Leningrad...

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

They shelved the design and cranked the SU-152 out in 25 days, just in time for Kursk...

I also have a book with a table entry about a KV replacement heavy tank, around the same time frame with a 110 mm gun...no further information provided! Presumably same fate as the T-43...

Cheers

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Thu Nov 29, 2001 9:30 pm

If I am not mistaken, the T43 was in the OOB for some brief period of time about a year or two ago.

I made a scenario using T34/57. The first version used the Zis-2 57mm gun in the OOB. After playing it some, I changed the 57mm gun to the US 57 which seems to be nominally more effective. The third and final version has a few improved ACPR rounds for each of the T34/57s.

These "tank hunters" were matched up against a similar sized PZIIIJ formation under AI control.

That made for a pretty interesting matchup. If the AI could handle armor better, the PZIIIJ would win easily. But with human control and 1941 Guards experience, it makes for a challenging battle.

If all goes well, this "What-If" will be tested and available to anyone who wants it soon.