Stuck in the PI

[ZOOMIE1980]

Besides my Cat Herding excericise in the Changsha district of China, I have found that I have completely bogged down in the Phillipines. After meeting almost NO resistance in Luzan, even for Clark or Manila I have found that the entire Allied force must have beaten a hasty retreat to the Fort size 8 or 9 Battan area. I started with a shock attack of 122,000 troops vs about 70,000 with an initial result of 1 to 1 odds and a reduction to fort size 7. Even with massive ground attacks from over a 100 G4M and G3M's. That was Jan 12. Now, on Jan 20 I have bogged down and now my combat report numbers are down to 97,000 attackers vs 65,000 defenders in deliberate attacks and am no longer even reducing fortifications (stuck at 6) with 0 to 1 odds losing about 1400 to their 800-900 each turn.

I probably should have used the mighty 38 Inf Div in Hong Kong instead of allowing them to aid in my cat herding excersize in China. Appears a Plan B is order.

1) Forming a huge bombardment TF in Tokyo consisting of 6 BB's and 4 heavy cruisers, 5 DD's and 2 MSW's (Bataan has a large minefield protecting it).

2) Sending the KB (who have been sinking fleeing ship and pulverizing DEI air bases) from off Sorebaja to refuel at Singapore and then off to Bataan to offer more air assault in the ground troops there.

3) Delaying my Sumatra offensive for two weeks to send the 5th and 18th Inf Divisions from Singapore to the PI to add to the now badly depleted, fatigued ground force there. May even end up sending the 56th and Imperial Guards from Singapore into the fray. But I WILL take the PI one way or another.

[Q-Ball]

1) Forming a huge bombardment TF in Tokyo consisting of 6 BB's and 4 heavy cruisers, 5 DD's and 2 MSW's (Bataan has a large minefield protecting it).

2) Sending the KB (who have been sinking fleeing ship and pulverizing DEI air bases) from off Sorebaja to refuel at Singapore and then off to Bataan to offer more air assault in the ground troops there.

3) Delaying my Sumatra offensive for two weeks to send the 5th and 18th Inf Divisions from Singapore to the PI to add to the now badly depleted, fatigues ground force there. May even end up even sending the 56th and Imperial Guards from Singapore into the fray. But I WILL take the PI one way or another.

I had the same experience, despite having 2 Divs, 65 Brigade, ARM and ART units....Bataan a tough nut to crack. I'm no expert, but if I may offer a differing opinion....

Unless you are playing #2, which ends in March '42, I would not delay a move into Sumatra. You need those resources for the long haul, and the sooner you can get there and move them to Japan, the better. Realistically, you don't need both divisions in Singapore to conquer the DEI, but if you have an extra, I would send the Imperial Guards to Burma before the PI. Palembang is maybe the most important spot on the map for Japan.

Sending a Bombardment TF to Bataan is a BAD idea! Bataan has 4x14in guns and 4x12 in guns (Ft. Drum and Corregidor), that will put a hurt in ANY IJN BB, let alone your CL's and DD's. I never tried it mind you, but if you do, let me know how it goes....

There is nothing actually in Bataan you need to win. The VP value is very low, and there are no resources. The only territorial benefit is that it clears Manila harbor, which you can't use as long as Ft. Drum is there. The main VP value is killing all those troops. They are not going anywhere, and if you keep them isolated, they will run out of supplies. It's a tough call to keep an IJA Army sitting on it's duff waiting, but I think that is preferrable to diverting resources from other efforts in order to get PI over with sooner.

In my opinion, and I could be wrong, KB has bigger fish to fry than bombing Bataan. Attacking the RN, clearing the SRA of Allied shipping, covering landings on New Guinea....those are all better uses for KB, particularly since you have large airbases on Formosa or Clark Field that can fly off less usefull bombers like Sallys and Lillys, that are limited in anti-shipping roles but just fine for dropping bombs on troops.

I hate to offer too much advice, since I am definitely not an expert, but that's my opinion!

[Wooglin]

I am in similar situation at Bataan. I have about 111K troops to his 75K. However, when I deliberate attack, I have 0 to 1 odds and lose thousands to his hundreds. I also get unacceptable air losses when I sortie over with ground attacks - I think he has lots of AA.

Here is my plan. I have set my attacking forces on bombard and am letting them hurl shells at each other for a while. My fatigue and disruption has been going down. At first I was registering negative results on bombardment (my side has losses, he has none) and he killed about 300-400 on each of his bombardments. Now after about a week and a half I am registering about 50 kills per bombardment and he is down to about 200. I expect further improvement.

I am making the assumption that this constant slug fest is eating away at his supplies. I am also making the assumption that I am growing stronger relative to him.

I am doing this in scenario 2 as a training scenario for me. I also have 3 BBs heading that way and will try a bombard just to see if it is worthwhile.

BTW, I believe this model of the Bataan defense plan is historically accurate.

- W

[Q-Ball]

PS, stop me if I am out of control and I'll shut up........I would move those Bettys and Nells away from PI to more important areas. IJN Air Units, Zeros, Nells, Bettys, are superior ship killers and should be deployed near shipping lanes; Rabaul, Kendari, Victoria Point, Rangoon, etc., anywhere you can suppress Allied shipping. Their long range shuts down shipping over a wide territory.

IJA units, Nates, Oscars, Lillys, Sallys, Sonias, Anns, etc. are weaker, and better suited to ground combat support. They have shorter range and no torps, and the fighter aircraft are inferior to the Zero, even after the Oscar upgrade. Against weaker allied fighters, they are just fine. And in China, PI, or Burma, anything that can fly and carry a bomb is useful.

Bettys and Nells are queen of the seas until they encounter better Allied fighters.

In the long run, I would send most IJA units to face the Brits and Chinese, and most IJN Air units to face the US/Australia.

[esteban]

Yep, sounds like a siege of Bataan is in order. Build up some forts in Clark, move your troops there, and let the Allies stew in Bataan for a couple months.

IF there is a lot of flak, use your bombers with better survivability, like Sonias and Sallys, to wear them down with occasional airstrikes in the meantime. Don't use the Nells and Bettys, they are too valuable elsewhere.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

PS, stop me if I am out of control and I'll shut up........I would move those Bettys and Nells away from PI to more important areas. IJN Air Units, Zeros, Nells, Bettys, are superior ship killers and should be deployed near shipping lanes; Rabaul, Kendari, Victoria Point, Rangoon, etc., anywhere you can suppress Allied shipping. Their long range shuts down shipping over a wide territory.

IJA units, Nates, Oscars, Lillys, Sallys, Sonias, Anns, etc. are weaker, and better suited to ground combat support. They have shorter range and no torps, and the fighter aircraft are inferior to the Zero, even after the Oscar upgrade. Against weaker allied fighters, they are just fine. And in China, PI, or Burma, anything that can fly and carry a bomb is useful.

Bettys and Nells are queen of the seas until they encounter better Allied fighters.

In the long run, I would send most IJA units to face the Brits and Chinese, and most IJN Air units to face the US/Australia.

Yep, sound good. Think I will back off to just bombardment for two-three weeks in the PI. Still will add the 18th Inf Division from Singapore because I've probably impaled myself too much at this point (the Allies are already emboldened enough to do some Deliberate attacks on me and once got up to 1 to 1 odds!).

I am moving ALL my PI A6M2 and G4M-1 squadrons to Rabaul which now have 270+ aviation support and a size 5 airfield built. Should have Tarowa up to size 4 in about two-three weeks, and it already has almost 200 avaiatin support there. Plan on upgrading the two G3M squadrons on Kawajelin to G4M, adding a Zero unit, and moving them Tarowa at that time. I've reinforce Tarowa with the South Seas Det of the 4 fleet just in case the US get antsy for a pre-mature, early assault.

My Saigon A6M2's and G3/4Ms are all in Singapore now, blasting the airfields at Palembang and helping the KB sink fleeing ships (3 Allied CL's alone last turn!).

And I sense a near total Chinese collapse the Changsha/Hengwang(sp?) area soon. China has totally collapsed in the north! No enemy troops there now at all, not even the Hopei militia, only totally battered and demoralized troops retreating from my drubbing in the Homan/Sian area. Ichang, Wuchow and Kwelin even fell yesterday! China is DOOMED once I cut the Burma Road and herd those cats running around back towards Chunking!

[ZOOMIE1980]

Oh, and by no troops in the North, I mean no VIABLE combat troops in the north. What are left are rag-tag leftover with over 90 Fatiigue, run off the roads and starving.... Easy mop-up duty, later on. ALL the cities are mine!

[carnifex]

I would set many of my bombers on Port Attack or Airfield attack. I believe that using those settings generates direct supply destruction as opposed to ground attack.

Also, continue deliberate attacks every day. Even if you take twice his casualties, you have replacements on the way, and he doesn't.

Try not to bombard Bataan until you have cleared the extensive minefield there.

[DrewMatrix]

That's why people build forts [:)]

It's a siege. Conduct it like a siege. Do you have combat engineers (to slowly reduce his fortification level)?

It will take a while. Having 100,000 besiege 60,000 may not be efficient. I bet if you reduced your besieging force to 50,000 (still in supply and him with dwindinly supply) you could use that other 50,000 somewhere else. Eventually you will take Bataan but it may take months.

In the real battle it took a while, and it fell as soon as it did only because the allied commander bungled his supply situation _before_ the retreat. The PI and US troops were starving as they arrived in Bataan.

Take your time and don't use too much force, just enough to bottle him up.

[RUPD3658]

I took Battan on Jan 18th vs hard computer. What helped was cutting off 2 division before they could get to Battan forts. I laid seige for about 3 weeks then bombarded for about a week. Two weeks of deilerate attacks (Shock only causes higher losses for you) finally took the base. Keep in mind that his supplies will be suffering spoilage due to the size 1 port and AF so he will eventually run out of supplies. I tryied bobming with Sallys and only suffered prohibive air losses so I would not recommend it. A naval bombrdment cost me a CA and a few DDs as well as big repair bills on other capital ships so I woulnd not repeat it.

Just a word of warning: do not try to eneter Manilla's port if you don't own Battan!. I took Manilla overland and tried to bring in MSWs to clear the port. All but one got sunk by the CD guns across the bay.

[Chaplain]

Is there any real reason to be in a hurry to take Bataan? Or even the PI, for that matter? As the Jap, I am comfortable isolating it and slowly reducing it while remaining poised to kick the snot out of any serious relief efforts. (Why even mess with the fort guns at Bataan? Just let them starve!) I feel like my efforts are better directed towards the SRA in the first 6 months of the war. Why not use KB to support a seizure of Noumea/Fiji in Jan-Feb? Talk about putting a knot in the Allies' knickers!

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

Is there any real reason to be in a hurry to take Bataan? Or even the PI, for that matter? As the Jap, I am comfortable isolating it and slowly reducing it while remaining poised to kick the snot out of any serious relief efforts. (Why even mess with the fort guns at Bataan? Just let them starve!) I feel like my efforts are better directed towards the SRA in the first 6 months of the war. Why not use KB to support a seizure of Noumea/Fiji in Jan-Feb? Talk about putting a knot in the Allies' knickers!

I have March/April plans in a major Gili-Gili/Port Morseby operation that intends to use ALL the Division size units now in the PI. i MUST have those divisions not only available for movement south by then, but well rested and reconstituted.

[DrewMatrix]

i MUST have those divisions not only available for movement south by then, but well rested and reconstituted

So many islands, so little time.

You don't have enough force to take everything. What is really important (DEI resources and bases to protect transport back to the home islands).

Grab that and let the PI rot on the vine.

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

Is there any real reason to be in a hurry to take Bataan? Or even the PI, for that matter? As the Jap, I am comfortable isolating it and slowly reducing it while remaining poised to kick the snot out of any serious relief efforts. (Why even mess with the fort guns at Bataan? Just let them starve!) I feel like my efforts are better directed towards the SRA in the first 6 months of the war. Why not use KB to support a seizure of Noumea/Fiji in Jan-Feb? Talk about putting a knot in the Allies' knickers!

Can't see a reason to take the PI quickly, as the ressources here are not needed by your industry. Once the planes and ships (including the sub tender) are gone, the nuisance value of the PI is little. Especially if they are in Bataan only.

But in Jan-Feb, I will be more busy taking Palembang than Noumea or Fiji. A transport fleet sailing from Japan will barely reach Noumea in January anyway, while sailing at full speed...

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
I have March/April plans in a major Gili-Gili/Port Morseby operation that intends to use ALL the Division size units now in the PI. i MUST have those divisions not only available for movement south by then, but well rested and reconstituted.

In March-April, I don't think you need so much troops to take New Guinea... or that means your opponent sent troops here that are supposed to defend something else more valuable.

[ZOOMIE1980]

In March-April, I don't think you need so much troops to take New Guinea... or that means your opponent sent troops here that are supposed to defend something else more valuable.

That's not the real issue, though. It is getting large divisional size units, forward-deployed to areas where they can react once the enemy begins to make his moves. Deployed soon enough so they are fully rested, and up to full strength, all the while giving their host base more time to build up the airfield, port, supply depot, fuel, and fortifications....all before undergoing serious attack or needing to react with large forces. Not to mention all the engineers stuck in the PI trying to undermine the fort that could be used building forts/airfields/ports elsewhere.

I'm not patient enough to undergo a siege here. The PI isn't part of the "end-game" at all, but the troops employed there, are.

[UncleBuck]

Seems to me Zoomie that your options are bad and worse. You have commitments for your troops ona time table that will not allow you to leave them in a siege situation for Bataan. However to take Bataan, since they ahve to much power to ignore, means impaling yourself on the fortifications, and commiting even more of the troops you need to rest, and fill out for your later plans. Seems that you need to comprimise. If you pull back your Large formations to Manila or CLark let them recuperate there you achive two fo the needs. Your troops get to rest and recover, you build up fortifications for future battles and you bottle up the Bataan force. They have no means of supply and will wither. Set your planes to High Altitude nuiscane raids on Port attack. This will keep your losses low thier disruption high and use up supplies just to fix uselss pot holes. It sounds as if you have enough force at other SRA bases that you coudl start your base building in the SWPAC area and have nice bases already built for June. In June Bataan will be in bad shape. You finsih them quickly and then move fresh, seasoned troops from PI to your new bases. THe Allies are not very strong, now and you shoudl have time to seige Bataan and ge those troops to forward areas well before the Allies are ready to seriously oppose you.

UB

[DrewMatrix]

seige Bataan

There is a difference between besieging Bataan and assaulting the fortifications of Bataan, remember. One costs time, the other costs troop's lives fatigue etc. Which to you have more of, troops or time?


Addendum:
I had another thought. The key point to Assault is to use really overwhelming force to fast with few casualties. The key point to a seige is to use the fewest number of troops that will keep him from breaking out of the siege.

What is the fewest troops you can run this siege with? Zero comes to mind. What are they going to do? Run back to Clark Field? So what? Have a lot of Allied AKs come in to pick them up? You should be so lucky!

[UncleBuck]

I don't understand what you are trying to say Beezle. I re-read my post and how were you getting the idea that I wanted to assault Bataan when I wrote seige?

[2ndACR]

The only thing that makes the PI important to me is Manila for a oil/res marshaling point for the lower DEI.
Tarakan, Kendari, Balikapan etc. The DEI, Java etc are alot more important. But I still pump in the troops to take the PI.

[DrewMatrix]

how were you getting the idea that I wanted to assault Bataan when I wrote seige

Not you, Zoomie. (I realize the header said I was replying to you but I was replying to the whole thread)