Richard, you have to be kidding. I know what you meant by saying "trivial matters such as Jewish annihilation." ,but the line comes off a bit sociopathic. Many atrocities against humanity were committed by the German and Soviet armies in WW2. The Germans committed more than the Soviets, and Soviets probably more than the remainder planet put together (during ww2). For argument's sake, when I say atrocity let's disclude the crime of passion version of war atrocity. These being events stimulated by the stress of combat, like Malmedy. Let's just keep this to systematic, planned murder.
Certainly, no one is arguing that the people in command are legitimately guilty of terrible crimes against humanity. But people like to defend the individual who's part of the gang, but not really a part of the evil.
I think it's easy to let yourself be a part of something that's doing wrong and not do something about it. To varying degrees we've probably each experienced a bit of it ourselves. That makes perfect sense. However, to say that that person doesn't deserve blame is crap. Being a part of an organization that conducts crimes against mankind like the SS did, makes you guilty. Plain, and simple. That's why being an accomplice to murder is a very serious crime. Not quite as bad a crime, but really bad nonetheless.
I'm sure there were many silent conscientious dissenters among the rank and file SS soldiers. These peopoe, while being courageous in warfare, were moral cowards. It's not easy to fight the system, but in the same way that one kills, one should die for the right cause. You can't tell me that the average SS soldier didn't know what evil their Fuhrer was conducting.
Richard, you may not like this rant, but you are strictly incorrect in your beliefs here. I agree that soldiers have it hard and that there are many horrible things that happen in war as a result of the fatigue and stress of combat. What the SS is truly guilty of, has nothing to do with any of that. The waffen SS units did a lot of intentional, bloody, wet civilian killing. Not as much as other 'departments' of the SS, but more than enough to accurately be remembered as 'evil'.
The marines killed a thousand civilians you say? Do have any idea how many the SS killed?
Tomo
German campaign
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NeoWhiteWolf
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Tombstone....i dint mean it to come off as i personally think of it as Trivial...I mean we can never forget what happen..i meant it to mean most soldiers werent bothered with the knowledge of it....My neighbor lived less than 10 miles form the Death camp outside Munich...it wasnt until after the war when most of here family and those in her area found out about...I think its a shamre a country does such a thing but i think its worse when half the country either didnt know the exact details or ignored it....
And tombstone killing civilians in any manor is wrong....if it be 10000 or 1000000. Hell The US arreested Japannese Amercians and threw them into interment camps because we felt they could become spies when most had been in American for over 3 or 4 generations....
In the saddest sense you can dread the past all you want but things like this happen all too often and this one just got the ppls eye more than the others...We as Human beings should look, study, and know so when it could happen in our country we can stand up and stop the cycle of history.
And tombstone killing civilians in any manor is wrong....if it be 10000 or 1000000. Hell The US arreested Japannese Amercians and threw them into interment camps because we felt they could become spies when most had been in American for over 3 or 4 generations....
In the saddest sense you can dread the past all you want but things like this happen all too often and this one just got the ppls eye more than the others...We as Human beings should look, study, and know so when it could happen in our country we can stand up and stop the cycle of history.
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SoleSurvivor
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NeoWhiteWolf
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I think in end....we all realize what happen was wrong but.....the ppl who did it thought it was the right thing to do at the time....they now live with the grim reminder that man is the cruelist creature in existence...Only man kills for an idea and slays those who stand against our ideas...I think we must rise above our faults and become better
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Capt. Pixel
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Having known a number of Germans who were alive at the time of the war, I think what Richard expressed is the truth.
At the time, on a very small number of people had an idea of what was going on. What evidence did leak out was dismissed as nonsense. Your nation is at war and nobody could be that much of a monster! Germany has essentially spent the last 50 years bidding for readmission to the human race because once they understood what happened, they were horrified.
Oh, and this is wildly off-topic for a message board like this.
At the time, on a very small number of people had an idea of what was going on. What evidence did leak out was dismissed as nonsense. Your nation is at war and nobody could be that much of a monster! Germany has essentially spent the last 50 years bidding for readmission to the human race because once they understood what happened, they were horrified.
Oh, and this is wildly off-topic for a message board like this.
Let's hit these responses in order.
Richard, I agree with your last post. I'm sorry if I came off harsh or anything. I actually contain roughly equal rage for most historical acts of genocide. Although killing civilians is wrong, those forces throughout history who made a policy out of it are worse, and more guilty. The US threw Japanese Americans into camps, (I have relatives that were there) true. We did not torture, overwork, rape, murder them. The difference is astronomical.
SoleSurvivor, I don't want to add the numbers up. I was merely using them as a part of my argumentation with Richard's post.
BjornR, the victors do write the history... I agree, but given the context of your post do you mean to say that reports of wartime atrocities committed by SS organizations are false? How long will it take us to understand what really happened? Are the documented atrocities fabricated? Maybe 6 million Jews weren't killed. Maybe the Germans were really just 'nice' to the Russian civilians, maybe the Russians didn't rape and murder a 100,000 people upon entering Germany in 44/45? Even though the victors write the history, there are always losers trying to re-write it.
Back to Richard, again I agree with your post. Man is the cruelest creature, but some of our cruelty is worse than others, and its hard to do worse than genocide.
Kuad, were not talking about civilian awareness here. We're talking about members of the waffen SS.
What I can't believe is the resistance to the fact that some of the worst things that can happen happened in WW2. Lots of hese were committed by the Germans and Russians(and Japanese). By defending the people, you defend the despicable acts themselves. I'm not trying to say that the SS were the worst, I'm saying that they are in the club. They crossed a line that puts them into a category or organizations that would have left us better off to never have existed. They take humanity away from the rest us by association with our species. It's never innappropriate to express disdain for the forces in history that shame our planet. Especially on a forum that focuses on wargames. This place is just as much about history as it is game.
Tomo
Richard, I agree with your last post. I'm sorry if I came off harsh or anything. I actually contain roughly equal rage for most historical acts of genocide. Although killing civilians is wrong, those forces throughout history who made a policy out of it are worse, and more guilty. The US threw Japanese Americans into camps, (I have relatives that were there) true. We did not torture, overwork, rape, murder them. The difference is astronomical.
SoleSurvivor, I don't want to add the numbers up. I was merely using them as a part of my argumentation with Richard's post.
BjornR, the victors do write the history... I agree, but given the context of your post do you mean to say that reports of wartime atrocities committed by SS organizations are false? How long will it take us to understand what really happened? Are the documented atrocities fabricated? Maybe 6 million Jews weren't killed. Maybe the Germans were really just 'nice' to the Russian civilians, maybe the Russians didn't rape and murder a 100,000 people upon entering Germany in 44/45? Even though the victors write the history, there are always losers trying to re-write it.
Back to Richard, again I agree with your post. Man is the cruelest creature, but some of our cruelty is worse than others, and its hard to do worse than genocide.
Kuad, were not talking about civilian awareness here. We're talking about members of the waffen SS.
What I can't believe is the resistance to the fact that some of the worst things that can happen happened in WW2. Lots of hese were committed by the Germans and Russians(and Japanese). By defending the people, you defend the despicable acts themselves. I'm not trying to say that the SS were the worst, I'm saying that they are in the club. They crossed a line that puts them into a category or organizations that would have left us better off to never have existed. They take humanity away from the rest us by association with our species. It's never innappropriate to express disdain for the forces in history that shame our planet. Especially on a forum that focuses on wargames. This place is just as much about history as it is game.
Tomo
The Primary Charge at Nuremburg was the charge of consiracy to commit war. The German Nation ( and the Japanese is similar ways), Deliberately and with malice a forethought, conspired to violate international treaties to inculde the terms of surrender from WW1, however harsh they may have been. That is where the basic crime occured. The German people as a whole knew that they were violating Treaties by rearming and gearing for war.. The Death Camps and the Slave Labor, in one guise or another, was known by most Germans. By taking the most extreme example only, the extermination camps, and focusing only on that, Germans try and plead ignorance. The Germans knew of the ethnic cleansing, the deportations, and the planed policy of enslaving those peoples the Nazi's considered subhuman, and as a people the exulted inand supported those crimes. The German People as a nation knew they were commiting War, and killing civilians, and bombing cities, and they rejoiced. There was no valid cause for the War itself but for being an instrument of the racial policy of the Nazi's. The Death Camps themselves where but an extreme example of the overall crime. The Crime was the unprovoked sneak attack of Nations at Peace, In Violation of Treaties entered into for the sole purpose of deciet, and with the expressed reason of pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide. This, the German people as a whole knew. It was the Publically stated policy of the Nazi Party, and was embraced, abieted, and endorsed by the German People. What part of this don't folks get?
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Greetings to all my Matrix friends. I try to stay out of these threads that begin with one subject and then a fire fight over a word or phrase erupts. Any one who has read "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" will recall what effect 'harmless' words or saying aloud a careless phrase had there.
Is the world a better place today because of the defeat of the axis? I think so. Could the western allies have intervened or taken a harder stance against the axis nations in the years preceding the war? I think so. Had the western allies given the same support to the German attempt at democracy after WW1 they gave the Nazi's that government may have remained and the horrible history that followed might have been prevented.
It was no secret outside of Germany what was taking place before the war. Western response was to provide finance to rebuild and rearm. While imposing restrictions on persons wanting to leave Germany. What message did this send? What nation in WW2 did not make a target of civilians? What horrifies most people is the 'factory' methods used by the axis (and soviets) against their own citizens. In a body count the USAAF did a respectable job on non combatants, The US Marines made a point of not taking POW's. The Canadians and the SS had a thing about not taking prisoners of each other. In the East you had to be a mental case to surrender and expect decent treatment. The Balkans were just as bloody in WW2 as they had been before and remain today. But all this aside the Western Allies never committed to paper any plan to collect, transport and eliminate people. We remain skeptical of nationals who claim they did not know it was going on (since we knew before the war it was happening but even then the scale amazed us after the war) I would find it much more persuading to hear "We knew, but were helpless" Since there was no support out side of Germany for an anti Nazi party before the war. Indeed the reverse is clearly history. Non Germans admired and praised what was taking place. It was only when their country became involved in the war that Hitler became a monster.
Remember the victims were German nationals or from countries/race/faiths that no one cared about.
The Chinese, Poles, Jews, etc., etc., had been mistreated for long before WW2 without any out rage. Many remain today in the same sort of world without any country going to war in their defense. The human race as a whole has to accept responabilty for WW2 and what happened. Blaming any group of people exclusively is wrong. It took the support of people outside Germany to create/install/maintain Hitler. What was occurring within Japan was clear from 1931 on but the US and Western allies considered them Weak nearsighted yellow monkey people. And then acted suprised when Japan made race an issue. (read the Honolulu Star dated DEC 4, 1941) Stalin had been on a rampage against his people for several years.
It is the nearness in time that propels WW2 to the top of the charts in outrages not the body counts. That and the perfection modern machines brought with it when applied by an efficient people. This horror causes most people to try to make a specific nation/person responsible without recognizing it required the consent (implied by lack of opposition) of the world. Just as it remains today,
"Evil" (there's the word that set this off)
Can only thrive when the strong leave the weak unguarded, Or pretend they don't matter. If you wait for these evil's to get to you before you get outraged then I think you should practice your outrage cause sooner or later it will.
Is the world a better place today because of the defeat of the axis? I think so. Could the western allies have intervened or taken a harder stance against the axis nations in the years preceding the war? I think so. Had the western allies given the same support to the German attempt at democracy after WW1 they gave the Nazi's that government may have remained and the horrible history that followed might have been prevented.
It was no secret outside of Germany what was taking place before the war. Western response was to provide finance to rebuild and rearm. While imposing restrictions on persons wanting to leave Germany. What message did this send? What nation in WW2 did not make a target of civilians? What horrifies most people is the 'factory' methods used by the axis (and soviets) against their own citizens. In a body count the USAAF did a respectable job on non combatants, The US Marines made a point of not taking POW's. The Canadians and the SS had a thing about not taking prisoners of each other. In the East you had to be a mental case to surrender and expect decent treatment. The Balkans were just as bloody in WW2 as they had been before and remain today. But all this aside the Western Allies never committed to paper any plan to collect, transport and eliminate people. We remain skeptical of nationals who claim they did not know it was going on (since we knew before the war it was happening but even then the scale amazed us after the war) I would find it much more persuading to hear "We knew, but were helpless" Since there was no support out side of Germany for an anti Nazi party before the war. Indeed the reverse is clearly history. Non Germans admired and praised what was taking place. It was only when their country became involved in the war that Hitler became a monster.
Remember the victims were German nationals or from countries/race/faiths that no one cared about.
The Chinese, Poles, Jews, etc., etc., had been mistreated for long before WW2 without any out rage. Many remain today in the same sort of world without any country going to war in their defense. The human race as a whole has to accept responabilty for WW2 and what happened. Blaming any group of people exclusively is wrong. It took the support of people outside Germany to create/install/maintain Hitler. What was occurring within Japan was clear from 1931 on but the US and Western allies considered them Weak nearsighted yellow monkey people. And then acted suprised when Japan made race an issue. (read the Honolulu Star dated DEC 4, 1941) Stalin had been on a rampage against his people for several years.
It is the nearness in time that propels WW2 to the top of the charts in outrages not the body counts. That and the perfection modern machines brought with it when applied by an efficient people. This horror causes most people to try to make a specific nation/person responsible without recognizing it required the consent (implied by lack of opposition) of the world. Just as it remains today,
"Evil" (there's the word that set this off)
Can only thrive when the strong leave the weak unguarded, Or pretend they don't matter. If you wait for these evil's to get to you before you get outraged then I think you should practice your outrage cause sooner or later it will.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
I ever thinked Versailles treaties were perverse and a shame, but GB and France were revengeful. National humiliation exacerbates nationalism.
And I ever thinked Carpet Bombing was a war crime too. Do you remember Dresden carpet bombing?
And Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuking?
And I ever thinked Carpet Bombing was a war crime too. Do you remember Dresden carpet bombing?
And Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuking?
Desperta ferro!
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
Tomo
I don’t mean that the reports of wartime crimes are false. It’s obvious that the worst crimes were committed by non-democratic nations. (One on the victors side). I just wanted to remind us that the victors do write the history and the dangers of that. Even the victor is a human.
Equally I agree with you that there is a danger in the losers trying to re-write it.
This is the reason why it takes generations to get an objective picture of what really happened.
I don’t mean that the reports of wartime crimes are false. It’s obvious that the worst crimes were committed by non-democratic nations. (One on the victors side). I just wanted to remind us that the victors do write the history and the dangers of that. Even the victor is a human.
Equally I agree with you that there is a danger in the losers trying to re-write it.
This is the reason why it takes generations to get an objective picture of what really happened.
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NeoWhiteWolf
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Tombstone...sorry for my late response on your last response on the Americans holding japanesse.....We may have not raped and killed...but we made them work for 14 hours a day and gave them literraly bread and water...wiuth no compensation for when the war was over...and after the war anti-asian acts happened until after korea....all governments hurt others in the name of justice...
On those who supported my last response ...if any of you are in colleg take Sociology and Anthropology as a minor or an elective...it gives you an idea on how brutal we really are
And on one final note...The Jewish ppl have been persecuted since Egypt....Russia since its creation has killed around (a really rough figure i read in a book) 1 out every 3 ever born in the world....tell me that isnt sad thge germans just did what russia had done for a near millenia...
I dont codone what germany did and in fact a lot of my friends are jewish and i see them as someone who beleives in something different than someone else...also good reading material... I think the book is Seeds or Tryanny..or something like that it talks on Leaders of the last century who have commited genocide in theie own countries...Ill post the real title as soon as i can find it....
But in the end war is war...there is no right there is no war...theres only losing and destruction...one side wins and one side suffers desctruction...as they say theres only the Dead and Dying...THose who are already dead and those who are going to die...Damn this is depressing sh**....
Sorry tombstone but i laugh at how this started on how to play a WW2 capaign with Germany...then some says a deragatory sentence i defned it then it goes in my favor then you yell at me then i yell back and ppl support a little of both we said......So i guess its a tie...
[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Richard WhiteWolf ]</p>
On those who supported my last response ...if any of you are in colleg take Sociology and Anthropology as a minor or an elective...it gives you an idea on how brutal we really are
And on one final note...The Jewish ppl have been persecuted since Egypt....Russia since its creation has killed around (a really rough figure i read in a book) 1 out every 3 ever born in the world....tell me that isnt sad thge germans just did what russia had done for a near millenia...
I dont codone what germany did and in fact a lot of my friends are jewish and i see them as someone who beleives in something different than someone else...also good reading material... I think the book is Seeds or Tryanny..or something like that it talks on Leaders of the last century who have commited genocide in theie own countries...Ill post the real title as soon as i can find it....
But in the end war is war...there is no right there is no war...theres only losing and destruction...one side wins and one side suffers desctruction...as they say theres only the Dead and Dying...THose who are already dead and those who are going to die...Damn this is depressing sh**....
Sorry tombstone but i laugh at how this started on how to play a WW2 capaign with Germany...then some says a deragatory sentence i defned it then it goes in my favor then you yell at me then i yell back and ppl support a little of both we said......So i guess its a tie...
[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Richard WhiteWolf ]</p>
This is not a competition. I probably need to lighten up, but the truth about the past cannot be allowed to fade away. We have to carry our errors with us always, to make certain we don't let the conditions arise that allow terrible things to happen. Russia has done a great deal of wrong over the years, that changes nothing when it comes to what Germany did. I don't want to tie, or win, or lose here. I want people to know the horrible things that groups have done in the past, and realize that they were unacceptable. I'm against the apologist point of view. It's true that this blew WAY out of proportion, but I have say that it was far more disquieting to hear some people's opinions on this topic than any initial point of contention over phrasing.
Tomo
Tomo
People who just cry about SS killing jews and forgetting and minimizing the soviet actions are inferior humanbeings. (that's not a racial concept. Stupid people are inferior.) The SS never officially tortured the prisoners in a so brutal and raw way like the soviet NKVD. SS troops just blowed the heads off the enemy. Of course in a such large amount of people there must have been some psychos too. People who denie the allied warcrimes are just typical victims of the western propaganda. If Hitler wanted to get ridoff those kinda assholes I have nothing against it. Stalin had millions of jews killed too. The NKVD had a big part in that. Cry about that for a change you liberal assholes. It's more hard to believe that people like the Germans commited such things, but it's not so big surprise to hear tprimitiv Russians doing those things. So German is a better example or a warning or whatever. Soviets did ATLEAST as much warcrimes as the Germans. Soviets did it in more raw and sick way. The Germans were gentlemanns even in killing and gassing. As sick as that may sound. Zyklon-B didn't effect painfully, you just went to sleep, no pain. Except of ants eating you piece by piece. Raping of million wimen In Germany was OK too I guess dear liberal assholes? the Germans never had the permission to rape slavic wimen. Some did but not many I strongly believe. Primitiv Russians were(propably still are)like animals. The victims of western propaganda and liberal inferior human beings who don't have their feet on the real life and assholes who don't know much about the .war.crimes.aubject, DON'T bother to answer. I'm ashaimed that you people who live in the merry happyland are called humans. Just whining and complaining and denieing everything that doesn't fit your picture of the "USA, THE SUPER LAND" and "I don't know nothing about Hitler, but he sucks anyway because that's what I am supposed to think. Me very much nevahhh have to do any research about the subject I just have to ask my jewish teacher and my slavic friends how this thing works" the western people have learned to fly without knowing how to land after the ww2. Just because you won with mass, doesn't mean you are anything great. You suck. I just realized how much I hate the so called western society a.k.a USA, britain and cocksuckers promised land France. People who I talk to here almost always are researcing every perspective on the subject and always are trying to understand why something bad happened. People aren't happy little party guys from mufasa land. Accept that killing is a normal part of man. People have killed each other always. So called civilizaized nations are just hippocryte shit lands who are about to fall in couple hundred years. Democracy and "liberacy" are just passing moments in human evolution and in 600 years people will look at us and laugh. Laugh hard. i hope none of you assholes who didn't get what I'm trying to say and provoc don't have to answer because I don't give a shit about your opinions or you. I hate you and I don't want to get more angry watchin' your stupid hippocryte 'feet in the air' comments. People who understand, feel free to contact me and share your opinions. Every stupid comment I take as a challenge and as a declaration of fight. As stupid as that may seem. But when I think about it I have no reason to be ashamed to YOU. Just bann me if it make's you feel better but I have only brought up my opinion which I'm never ashaimed to tell. May the force of the righ-minded help me.
A.H
And the answer is........42!! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">Originally posted by Mogami:
Greetings to all my Matrix friends. I try to stay out of these threads that begin with one subject and then a fire fight over a word or phrase erupts. Any one who has read "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" will recall what effect 'harmless' words or saying aloud a careless phrase had there.
Jackk
"Smile today cuz tomorrow may really suck"
"Smile today cuz tomorrow may really suck"
OMG A.H., you're crazy. I'm reduced to laughter, I'm sorry I stirred this up. Look at this guy?! Great post buddy, hope you're proud of yourself. You're assumptions about this thread are hilariously off-base. It's always interesting when one of you guys pop out with your real beliefs though. Anyways, if anyone else feels like discussing this topic please email me privately. It's an interesting and important topic... just a tough one to be objective about and one that heavily involves morality and philosophy.
Tomo
Tomo