Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[Chaplain]

I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to tryand exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Remind yourself of the real reason Japan has production and you'll understand that it is not to allow altering history, it is there to IMPOSE history. Without it, Japan would be free to conduct completely unrestricted warfare with no regard to history. There would be no need to attack the SRA, no need to worry about supply, no need to worry about fuel.

And that sums up the whole problem for the Japanese player. This is the single most important point: the a/c upgrade paths enforce the war's history on the game when the game may not match the history. Lots of things can differ in WitP: more BB's can be sunk, the American carriers can all be lost rather than KB at a Midway, etc. Those changes can delay the Allied onslaught - and more time for the Japanese means more time to equip and train pilots, more time to research and produce aircraft. Producing more aircraft does nothing for Japan if no squadrons can be equipped with them. So, the Japanese player succeeds in holding the line through most of 43 because he sank the Allied CV's, etc. He gets more time to produce planes and generates a surplus beyond those needed for replacements, but never gets to use them because they sit in the pool after the few squadrons that used them historically are filled up.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to tryand exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory.

Winning as Japan is never an option. The sheer volume of men and material will swamp you eventually. Choosing to equip squadrons with newer aircraft when you have a surplus of the newer aircraft is a no-bnrainer. Yet the game imposes on the Japanese player a "brain dead" rule that they can only upgrade to planes that they did historically.

So there is a Japanese player, with the goal of bettering Japan's historical results. Off he goes and does that, delaying the Allied offensives until late '43. Now, he has enjoyed an extra 6-12 months of production compared to historical results, but he is still held to the constraints in aircraft upgrades that occurred historically. Sorry, but that's just not right.

[Mr.Frag]

If there was no production at all, it would also be non-historical.

The goal was to make the Japanese player wrestle with the tough choices faced and never have enough to do anything right. It does that well. You are always stuck choosing something at the expense of something else. That is the pain that needs to be felt to play Japan.

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to try and exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory.

There is no way for Japan to win ... and in BTR, there is no way for Germany to win. What I do not understand is why WITP allows the Japanese player to alter plane production, R&D, factory production ... and not the upgrade path of his squadrons
[&:]

However, it is my mistake - it seems that I misunderstood WITP's goal : I believed it was possible to play the Pac War as the Japanese CinC with the real Japanese choices (lack of of fuel and resources for the industry, not enough ASW ships ...) and not to have the true Pac War History imposed by various hard-coded means (fixed plane upgrade paths, decreased pilot experience years after years ...) regardless of how the war was going in the game ...

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The reason Japan even has production at all is simply to give the Allies something to destroy to end the game.

Looking at it beyond the choke it imposes on Japan is looking beyond what it was designed to simulate.

Remind yourself of the real reason Japan has production and you'll understand that it is not to allow altering history, it is there to IMPOSE history. Without it, Japan would be free to conduct completely unrestricted warfare with no regard to history. There would be no need to attack the SRA, no need to worry about supply, no need to worry about fuel.

And when you provide and editor with a game that is EXACTLY what you, as the developer are implying you are allowing. Editors exist for no other primary reason than to ALTER THE GAME! In this case, to change it from a "historical simulation" into a "starfleet/warcraft" game. If users want to produce all Shindens and ugrade every last fighter unit to Shindens by Nov 44 via an editor, why should you or anyone at 2x3 or Matrix care? When you ship an editor with a game, ALL bets are totally OFF. Or at least, they SHOULD be.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

If there was no production at all, it would also be non-historical.

The goal was to make the Japanese player wrestle with the tough choices faced and never have enough to do anything right. It does that well. You are always stuck choosing something at the expense of something else. That is the pain that needs to be felt to play Japan.

Pretty lame fall back. Japan must feel the heat because they felt the heat? Sorry, they felt the heat because things went to hell fast at Midway. You think Guadalcanal would have been won if KB had been around to debate the issue and Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet were seabed litter? You think American subs would have been as successful if they were based further away from SLOC's between Japan and the SRA?

The events of WWII were dominos - one falling led to another falling. Midway lost made a loss at Guadalcanal more likely. As the Allies, you can recover from a reverse Midway because of your industry. As Japan, dominos will eventually fall against you and you can't. Suggesting that Japan could not produce anything and therefore should not be allowed to use what they can produce is silly. If I can produce it, I should be able to use it. If I can produce it, and shouldn't be able to, that is another story.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Spooky

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to try and exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory.

There is no way for Japan to win ... and in BTR, there is no way for Germany to win. What I do not understand is why WITP allows the Japanese player to alter plane production, R&D, factory production ... and not the upgrade path of his squadrons
[&:]

However, it is my mistake - it seems that I misunderstood WITP's goal : I believed it was possible to play the Pac War as the Japanese CinC with the real Japanese choices (lack of of fuel and resources for the industry, not enough ASW ships ...) and not to have the true Pac War History imposed by various hard-coded means (fixed plane upgrade paths, decreased pilot experience years after years ...) regardless of how the war was going in the game ...

Once they shipped the editor in the Matrix version, it became that. But agreed. When a game producer provides an editor, made BY THE PRODUCER, not some third party, they are implying that they are going to allow you to turn the game into whatever you want it to be. And yes, why do they allow Japan total control over production, yet NOT allow you to deliver what you produce in the fashion you want to deliver. I want ALL Shindens in EVERY Japanese fighter squadron on the map by Jan 1945. What's the problem with that, again? I don't really get it.

[Mr.Frag]

You are not seeing the big picture ... who said you can't produce it. It is your fault that you are producing the wrong thing, making stuff you don't need instead of stuff you do need. That is part of the overall headache of managing the balancing act.

If you simply pretend there is no IJA/IJN and play the game like that, they I completely understand you wanting to be able to simply make the one best aircraft and ignore production from then on, but that is not the reality of what Japan faced. They had 2 separate groups with totally separate demands making life hell for the industrial boys who were constantly caught serving two masters.

Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins.

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Zoomie
but I think you miss part of the point, a lot of players, don't want to edit there games or OOB's even if it makes the OOB better or more correct, they want to play the game as it was made by the designer

in BTR (with the editor that was made later) I can start a 43 campaign and give the GE all TA-152's and DO-335's, but if I did, I wouldn't play that game
(LOL, I did test it, with 1000 of each added at the beginning, it was fun for a test )

but as I was saying, for me, it would be nice if I could change my Chinese squadrons to Demons or P-40 E's when the stock pile of them is large enough, I will not edit the game to do so, if the designers give me the option, then I will, if not, I will wait for some P-40 N's to build up

HARD_Sarge

[UncleBuck]

Correct Mr. Frag,

However when the Industrial boys produced 2000 geroges for teh Navy and had them in teh Aircraft Pool the Navy didn't keep flying A6M2's. When the Industrial boys made 2000 Franks they didn't keep using teh KI-43's either. If you produce it you should be able to use it. If XYZ squadron HISTORICLLY Only flew the Nate what sense does it make to have that unit flying Nates in Honshu in 1944 when there are Much better Aircraft available in the aircraft pool not being used? No one is asking to make the IJA/IJN problem go away they are asking to be able to move beyond the HISTORICAL limit on upgrades if they have teh planes available to replace them. No Magic re-supply you still woudl follow the upgrade rules but if you can get them to thier parent HQ and have enough supply you shoudl be able to upgrade the planes.
If you can't tehn the matter of streamlining the production is a waste since you are not allowed to do any better than the Japanese did historically. the way it is now, thereis no reason for the Allies to even try and stop Japanese advancement into SRA or to interdict the resources going home since they will NEVER do better than Historical. HTe only differnce woud be a slightly longer period before teh inevitable. With the curerent victory conditions, upgrading to better planes is a KEY to Japanese chances of forcing a peace on the Allies.
UB

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
You are not seeing the big picture ... who said you can't produce it. It is your fault that you are producing the wrong thing, making stuff you don't need instead of stuff you do need. That is part of the overall headache of managing the balancing act.

I am not producing the wrong thing, I am not permitted to use the best things I can produce. The distinction is subtle, but important.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
If you simply pretend there is no IJA/IJN and play the game like that, they I completely understand you wanting to be able to simply make the one best aircraft and ignore production from then on, but that is not the reality of what Japan faced. They had 2 separate groups with totally separate demands making life hell for the industrial boys who were constantly caught serving two masters.

House rules can take care of what can be upgraded to what. I personally would not upgrade Oscar's to Reppu's, or land based zeros to Shindens. I would however upgrade Oscar's to Frank's (most). The problem is WitP doesn't give me that option. The upgrade button should give me a toggle between all the types available (and Do Not Upgrade), not simply the next one in the path and do not upgrade. House rules can handle the rest.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins.

Melodrama makes me ever so faintly nauseous. Changing this means WitP is an RTS? Please! Go blow that smoke somewhere else!

[GoofTrooper]

There are at least 2 threads on the topic of aircraft upgrades and I thought I'd drop my 2 cents in. Many players are complaining that the game should allow more flexibility in A/C upgrade paths. I would be interested to see any evidence that would suggest some of this was even possible for IJN. The most important one and I think most would agree would be the A6m2 upgrading to the A6m5 instead of the A6m3. I think there are several issues at work and I will try to organize them. I would start by saying (and someone else already posted this elsewhere) that not all A6M variants are represented. Specifically the A6m3 Model 22. This version went back to the Airframe of the older A6m2 model 21 instead of the clipped wing short ranged version (A6m3 Model 32) represented in the game. I don't think changing the Generic A6m3 to the model 22 would help as this aircraft was used in large enough numbers to ignore. If the A6m3 was generic 22 that could unbalance the game, giving the Japs more "long range" zeros than they had for a specific campaign. The Solomon's is a good example. Many (sorry don't remember exact num.) of the A6m's at Rabaul were the Model 32's that couldn't make the flight to Guadalcanal. If the current M3 was model 22 then the this could unbalance the early part of the war as the IJN player wouldn't have to make the difficult decision that his historical counterpart did. Do I pull my longer ranged zeros from China (this was an issue that historically occurred) where they are needed to escort my Nells (Hist note: they had advanced deep enough into China, to need the Longer Range of the model 21 or 22) or do I divert them for the upcoming campaign in the Solomon's (anyone remember reading about Japan's victory disease and over extension). I think the easiest way to solve this would be to create two versions of the A6m3. Add the A6m3 Model 22 and keep the model 32 as separate. Allow the units that upgraded historically to the 22, to do so while those that were 32 would follow that path. After both would upgrade to m5.
Had more to say but gotta get back to work, the Boss is eyeing me menacingly............

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You are not seeing the big picture ... who said you can't produce it. It is your fault that you are producing the wrong thing, making stuff you don't need instead of stuff you do need. That is part of the overall headache of managing the balancing act.

If you simply pretend there is no IJA/IJN and play the game like that, they I completely understand you wanting to be able to simply make the one best aircraft and ignore production from then on, but that is not the reality of what Japan faced. They had 2 separate groups with totally separate demands making life hell for the industrial boys who were constantly caught serving two masters.

Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins.

I did not know that BTR was a RTS [X(]. However, even with an open-ended upgrade model à la BTR, it is not difficult to only allow IJN squadrons to upgrade to IJN planes & IJA squadrons to IJA planes.

But as I said before, I should have read more carefully the features of the game. However, there are some promising wargames coming out in the next months ... I hope I will get less disappointed by their design decisions

[Rob Brennan UK]

Surely the big picture is 'What if?' from dec 7th all bets are off, most encounters will be non-historical. IF japan manages to keep its industry alive and make lots of say Ki-44's why 'only' allow a few units to upgrade to that a/c ? ( i know this is a repeat and I'm not trying to be awkward). It's like having a rule that Japan MUST move her naval forces to Midway in mid 42 or pay a penalty of some sort because it's not a historical move ?

I think most of use want a deliniated IJN/IJA divide, I know I do. BUT its not easy (at all) to calculate how many a/c you need of a particular type or even how many tanks/guns you will need in the next month/year to fulfill historical reinforcements/replacements.

Its almost as if we have control over the production of japan but are penalised if we tinker with it .. Why have player controlled production in the first place?

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

If there was no production at all, it would also be non-historical.

The goal was to make the Japanese player wrestle with the tough choices faced and never have enough to do anything right. It does that well. You are always stuck choosing something at the expense of something else. That is the pain that needs to be felt to play Japan.

Agreed but production could be done as the USA/Allies just subject to bombing. Wrestling with the tough choices is what the game is all about in all aspects, but we still have to freedom to perform non-historical actions why not non historical production ? (ok we can change to non historical production but it's all a negative as I see it)


Thsi game will never ever be an RTS [:)].. can you imagine a 13 y/o red alert fan playing this game [:D][:D]

P.S this is my first ever rantite .. (def. small rant) .. be gentle


Anyhow it's still a bloody good game [:D]

[Black Cat]

Should the Allies get the same abilities that you guys want for the Japanese ?

The ability to research and produce the best available AC and introduce them through upgrades into the Air Groups when the player wants ?


If not, why not ?

[freeboy]

Absolutely they should, the goal is to leave the historical pathways and see if we can help the poor guys.... remember the results of b 29 was more lost in the us into 44 than overseas... lots and lots of engine problems.. so maybe some randum you can try it but it may bot help varible with all the planes needing to be reserched to be upgraded to

[GoofTrooper]

Oznoyng,

What better Aircraft do you have in the pool that units can't upgrade too?

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Should the Allies get the same abilities that you guys want for the Japanese ?

The ability to research and produce the best available AC and introduce them through upgrades into the Air Groups when the player wants ?


If not, why not ?

Good question, I think the Allies should have the ability to upgrade at will but with some limits :
- Same kind of planes (fighters -> fighters ... but not fighters -> bombers)
- USN planes for USN squadrons, USAAF planes for USAAF squadrons, ...
- Restrict the Commonwealth + Dutch airforces to the planes historically available to these nations

For plane production, the Pacific theater was not prioritary for the Allied High Command compared with the European theater ... so we can assume that the Allied R&D and production should stay historical (the only exception should be Australia & NZ ... if it is possible)

[UncleBuck]

I am ok with those restrictions Spooky if you place teh same ones on Japan. These two are teh ones I mean - Same kind of planes (fighters -> fighters ... but not fighters -> bombers)
- IJN planes for IJN squadrons, IJA planes for IJA squadrons, ...


The only issue I have is that how do you allow the US to increase production to allow the upgrades? As it is now it would be hard pressed to increase upgrades with the current plane figures later in the war. But just the option would be nice.