Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[Mr.Frag]

- IJN planes for IJN squadrons, IJA planes for IJA squadrons, ...

Sorry guys, but I must be missing something here.

IJN planes upgrade to IJN planes (apart from the A6M2 -> 3)

IJA planes upgrade to IJA planes (apart from roughly 30 special unique aircraft)

What exactly is the problem? You want to completely cross lines?

Heavy bombers have heavy bomber paths

Dive bombers have dive bomber paths

Torpedo bombers have torpedo bomber paths

Transports are a tad bit of a mess, but they really were, with whatever aircraft there was being tossed to transport duties.

Fighters follow either the fighter-bomber or the pure fighter path depending on their type.

Please highlight the problem, I'm not arguing just to be difficult here, I just don't see what you are complaining about being broken.

[tsimmonds]

Mr. Frag, I believe that the main beef is that Nates only upgrade to Oscar IIs. This fills up the vast majority of IJA squadrons with obsolete a/c at a time when Franks are available and sorely needed.

[Xargun]

I would love to be able to upgrade to whatever model is available and even downgrade if I wanted to. There should be some restrictions to represent the IJN and IJA problems so IJA fighters can convert to ANY OTHER IJA fighter at any time - provided you have enough in the pool.. Same with IJN planes - change to any other plane of the same type provided enough in the pool..

This would give us more flexibility and make changing production of aircraft more important.

Xargun

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Should the Allies get the same abilities that you guys want for the Japanese ?

The ability to research and produce the best available AC and introduce them through upgrades into the Air Groups when the player wants ?


If not, why not ?

I'm not even sure whether Japan should get the opportunity to research aircraft or not. From reading a book on the development of the Zero, it is clear to me that some aircraft could have been developed and deployed before they were. However, the costs of doing so in game are not sufficiently onerous to Japan. Researching the Reppu, for instance, should cost you in terms of your ability to get the A6M5. I am also dubious about the ability to know, in exquisite detail, the combat values of the planes involved. There is no fog of war when it comes to the performance of various aircraft. You know before you begin what you will get. All that combines to make me believe that researching planes is probably not a great design option.

I am also reluctant to simply convert production from one aircraft to another in the upgrade chain in one day. Converting from and A6M2 to A6M3 would be relatively simple and would not impact production greatly. A small hit in production (represented by damage of 10 percent) might be appropriate. When converting to the Reppu or from say the Nate to the Oscar, there should be a longer ramp up time.

Finally, I am also cognizant of the attitudes of the pilots themselves with respect to the planes. If you read the thread recently about the Claude that quoted Saburo Sakae (?), you will find that the pilots themselves resisted the change from the Claude to the Zero. I support a requirement for spending PP to change the aircraft that a squadron flies. The more experienced the pilots in the group, the more it should cost.

With respect to the US, I haven't really thought about it. I suspect that adding the abilities to the US would not have as significant of an impact as it does with the Japanese.

[Sultanofsham]

We have a switch on the menu that allows for ahistoric use or tactics of subs (for both sides now) so why not slap a couple more buttons on there to allow players from both sides to be able to select what plane a squadron will use. Put a PP cost on it so you cant go hog wild without paying a price somewhere else and make it so you have to stay within the same class of aircraft (fighter-fighter, heavy bomber-heavy bomber).

That way if someone wants to be able to do it they can and if someone doesnt they dont have to. Just like with the subs.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Hi Zoomie
but I think you miss part of the point, a lot of players, don't want to edit there games or OOB's even if it makes the OOB better or more correct, they want to play the game as it was made by the designer

in BTR (with the editor that was made later) I can start a 43 campaign and give the GE all TA-152's and DO-335's, but if I did, I wouldn't play that game
(LOL, I did test it, with 1000 of each added at the beginning, it was fun for a test )

but as I was saying, for me, it would be nice if I could change my Chinese squadrons to Demons or P-40 E's when the stock pile of them is large enough, I will not edit the game to do so, if the designers give me the option, then I will, if not, I will wait for some P-40 N's to build up

HARD_Sarge

That's not the point at all. If I want an historical game, I play the scenarios that came with the original game and the upgrade paths and everything set as it was historically. However, since they gave me an editor, the gave the license to be creatative and play a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME!. I could care less if YOU, or anyone else, would ever want to play MY scenario. I develop that scenario for MY OWN PRIVATE CONSUMPTION and noone else! I should be able to do as I please so long as the AI and game engine don't break! Why should ANYONE else care in the least? If I want to develop a scenario that allows me to eventually place a Japanese unit in the United States base, SO WHAT??? I might find it fun. What you might find it, is irrelevant, in that context.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: GoofTrooper

Oznoyng,

What better Aircraft do you have in the pool that units can't upgrade too?

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo or Jack would be an improvement. The Ki-36 Ida is a piece of trash I would love to be able to upgrade to a Babs or Dinah. I would consider converting Ki-49's to Ki-21's to streamline production and wait for the Ki-67. I would like to replace the F1M2 Petes with longer ranged E13A1 Jakes or E7K2 Alfs. I would stop Ki-54 production and revert to the K-59. The Ki-100 Tony might eventually be upgraded to something else like a Frank or Shinden. I haven't thought in great detail, but off the top of my head, those are some of the things I would consider.

Edited to fix options for Oscar upgrade to be historical IJA -> IJA.

[Reiryc]

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

Yep, I agree. I was looking at a list that did not distinguish between IJN and IJA fighters. My bad.

Just looked it up, I would consider the Tony (both types), the Tojo, and the Frank as possible upgrades. Not the Jack or George.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Sorry guys, but I must be missing something here.
IJN planes upgrade to IJN planes (apart from the A6M2 -> 3)
IJA planes upgrade to IJA planes (apart from roughly 30 special unique aircraft)
What exactly is the problem? You want to completely cross lines?

In short, in a user defined scenario....yes. Absolutely. So long as fighter/fighter bombers change to fighter/fighter bomber types, what's the big deal? It is a FANTASY GAME! Why should ANYONE care? In the REAL world, aircrews cross train ALL THE TIME. F-15 pilots become F-16 pilots, A-7 pilots became either F-14 or F-18 pilots. hell in the REAL Air Force B-52 pilots leave active bomber units and fly F-16s in the Guard, and F-15 fly Tankers in the Guard, and they all eventually become airline pilots!!! This notion that Ki-XX's units can only ugrade to only other Ki-XX units has no basis in reality other than that is how the Japanese HISTORICALLY did things. We allow turning off of historic Jap sub doctrine, and give folks an editor to create uber-weapons and give Japan 99,999 points of everything. So what's the big deal with the concept of user-defined upgrade paths for airplanes? Beyond underlying software design limitations...
[/quote]

Please highlight the problem, I'm not arguing just to be difficult here, I just don't see what you are complaining about being broken.

If I want a Ki-27 squadron to fly A6M2's I should be able to. Both are fighters. If I want A6M2's to upgrade to A6M3's rather than A6M5's I should be able to. If I want to go directly from Ki-44 to A7M's and I have A7M's in my pool, I should be able to equip THAT squadron with A7M's. These are user designed FANTASIES and that's where everyone is asking to have maximum flexibility, not in the shipping game with the Matrix defined scenarios.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

In the vendor supplied game and scenarios....absolutely. By in my own fantasy, created via the editor, why should you even care?

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

In the vendor supplied game and scenarios....absolutely. By in my own fantasy, created via the editor, why should you even care?

I don't care.... I'm not even commenting on you or your fantasy scenarios.

If you'll take the time to notice, I quoted onzyog and responded to him.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

The most glaring example that comes to mind is the Oscar. Upgrading some of them to any of the Tony, Tojo, Jack, George or Frank would be an improvement.

Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

Yep, I agree. I was looking at a list that did not distinguish between IJN and IJA fighters. My bad.

Just looked it up, I would consider the Tony (both types), the Tojo, and the Frank as possible upgrades. Not the Jack or George.

I don't even agree with that. Even in the vendor game and scenarios, the Imperial Guards could deploy to China while the 25th Army HQ to Truk! Historically the IG's were in the 25th Army and stayed there. We seem to have no conceptual problem with LCU's being deployed all over creation in places their commanders never would have placed them, but seem to be hung up on where aircraft models end up? What' the difference, other than hard-coded design limitations??

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
What' the difference, other than hard-coded design limitations??

Maybe one possible answer as to why it's not available?

[GoofTrooper]

I can't speak for the other aircraft, but I know there were major teething problems with the Ki-84. I think part of the problem is that witp is based on UV which was Operational level whereas Witp is both operational and strategic. I would be leery of allowing player the ability to change upgrade paths as the realities of this are outside the scope of the game. Japan's pilot replacement program was terrible. I know the game models this, but does it model the difficulty of training pilots in new aircraft? Going from an A6m2 to m5 I can see being easy, but what about an Oscar to a Frank? Unless the Allied player is totally incompetent, by the time some of these show up in significant numbers, there should already be a shortage of "trained" pilots. Japan had been suffering a steady loss of irreplaceable pilots during the Solomon's. In fact IIRC this was one of the reasons they didn't replace the Zero by mid war, when it was already outclasses, to many losses and not enough Ind&resources to replace existing aircraft AND Develop new aircraft. Since the game doesn't model production quality (the risk of losing exp. pilots to crashes planes not starting etc) or many other difficulties that historically limited Japans ability to introduce new aircraft, I can't see allowing any player choice. I think witp is more "grand operations" then strategy.

[Oznoyng]

From all I can see, the lines drawn between the IJA and IJN would have required enormous political costs being paid for one to equip the other's airdraft, even unto the death of the empire. If this was allowed, it would need to cost an enormous number of PP to accomplish.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Reiryc



Well I don't think any IJA plane should be able to upgrade to any IJN plane of the same class.

Thus the oscar should be limited to upgrading to the tony/frank etc. While the zero should be limited to the jack/george etc

In the vendor supplied game and scenarios....absolutely. By in my own fantasy, created via the editor, why should you even care?

I don't care.... I'm not even commenting on you or your fantasy scenarios.

If you'll take the time to notice, I quoted onzyog and responded to him.

This entire thread concerns, mainly, user defined scenarios and does really apply to the shipping versions. The shipping versions are clearly designed to be historical simulations and should be played as such, with all the restrictions in place to pretty much force a historical approach to the game.

But once the editor is invoked anything allowed by the underlieing software design should be allowed to happen. Any time I hear even remarks such as IJA should get IJA upgrades only. To that, again, I ask why? This is an editted thing we are talking here. In my world IJA and IJN leaders sit in a room and sing Kumbaya to each other in Japanese all day long.... What you say is appropriate for the historical scenarios and any game being played where the intent is adhering to history. But it really does not apply, conceptually, to a fantasy game. Which is what any game created using the editor is.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

From all I can see, the lines drawn between the IJA and IJN would have required enormous political costs being paid for one to equip the other's airdraft, even unto the death of the empire. If this was allowed, it would need to cost an enormous number of PP to accomplish.

In my editted fantasy IJN and IJA leaders take warm showers in the morning with each other....

Remember, I think we are all talking about user editted scenarios where we get user defined upgrade paths....at least I thought that's what this was all about

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: GoofTrooper

I can't speak for the other aircraft, but I know there were major teething problems with the Ki-84. I think part of the problem is that witp is based on UV which was Operational level whereas Witp is both operational and strategic. I would be leery of allowing player the ability to change upgrade paths as the realities of this are outside the scope of the game. Japan's pilot replacement program was terrible. I know the game models this, but does it model the difficulty of training pilots in new aircraft? Going from an A6m2 to m5 I can see being easy, but what about an Oscar to a Frank? Unless the Allied player is totally incompetent, by the time some of these show up in significant numbers, there should already be a shortage of "trained" pilots. Japan had been suffering a steady loss of irreplaceable pilots during the Solomon's. In fact IIRC this was one of the reasons they didn't replace the Zero by mid war, when it was already outclasses, to many losses and not enough Ind&resources to replace existing aircraft AND Develop new aircraft. Since the game doesn't model production quality (the risk of losing exp. pilots to crashes planes not starting etc) or many other difficulties that historically limited Japans ability to introduce new aircraft, I can't see allowing any player choice. I think witp is more "grand operations" then strategy.

The availability date on the Frank should already reflect this, as should the production system. Japan has problems in the historical situation that might not exist or not exist to the degree they did historically depending upon game events. Japan developed new aircraft - they had trouble producing new aircraft *especially* as losses mounted while trying to transport oil and resources from the SRA. If game events alloe Japan to transport more supply to the home islands for a longer period than occurred historically and keep LBA away from Japanese industry for longer than they did historically, they can produce more aircraft of advanced types and should be able to train more, better pilots.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
This entire thread concerns, mainly, user defined scenarios and does really apply to the shipping versions. The shipping versions are clearly designed to be historical simulations and should be played as such, with all the restrictions in place to pretty much force a historical approach to the game.

But once the editor is invoked anything allowed by the underlieing software design should be allowed to happen. Any time I hear even remarks such as IJA should get IJA upgrades only. To that, again, I ask why? This is an editted thing we are talking here. In my world IJA and IJN leaders sit in a room and sing Kumbaya to each other in Japanese all day long.... What you say is appropriate for the historical scenarios and any game being played where the intent is adhering to history. But it really does not apply, conceptually, to a fantasy game. Which is what any game created using the editor is.

Not in my mind it doesn't. A few extra months delay in the destruction of key engine manufacturing plants and aircraft factories should mean significantly more Franks in the skies over Japan, period.

Oh... and sufficient supplies of Oil to power the industries making them...