Early war Dutch primer

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

This topic raises an interesting question....given the squabbling among the ABDA command at the time, is it realistic to assume the Dutch would agree to mass movement of their resources and oil? Does anyone have any historical basis for this strategy? Was it planned or attempted? As for the surfact units, the willingness of the Allies to contest the conquest of the SRA with a surface fleet and the almost total annihilation of said fleet in the Battle of Java Sea (27-28 Feb) makes me believe defending the resources was the decision at the time.

Just curious...

When Amsterdam calls me and asks whats going on then I will worry about it...[;)]

Seriously, I think the Dutch though they could hold onto there empire. What made them think that is beyond me since there was no chance in hell of them holding onto any of it.


There probably isnt a historical basis but I dont really care. Hindsight is 20/20 and im trying to do better than historicaly and fighting like they did in WW2 wont do anything to help that.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Don't expand the port and airfields. (partial expansion can stay with the invader). Just build forts. They'll build faster if you don't do all 3. And they will suck up as much supply while building. And they will help you last longer once the invasions begin.

Japanese player will cancel expansion at 80% of these bases since they are useless to him. They only need about 5 baes in the DEI to hold complete control over it. Its an out of the way are where they will station a few air units and thats about it.
They probably wont keep a strong surface fleet there so major ports arnt all that important.

[DrewMatrix]

A good PBEM player will escort every transport

The AI (against me, anyhow) is escorting the transport TFs. Not with Cruisers (except for one big invasion in Malaya) but wth PC/ML/MSWs.

For Mr. Frag, mostly:

Can the AI (Will the AI) (does they AI need) a boost in the amount of escorts given to Transport TFs in "non-rear-areas" (anywhere the enemy has LB Air/bases)?

I get the general impression (real life, not from the game) that not having enough escorts was a big problem for the IJ. They run out of DDs and then can't escort Combat nor Transport TFs adequately.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

I also think that a valid concern/question is how badly is the AI affected by moving out resources and leaving engineers to destroy industry when the base is captured? Is it something that the AI can not recover from? I have yet to make it past March in any game I have played so far.

[maddog0606]

I have read in some books that after Singapore fell ABDA started to fall apart also. The English general in charge wanted to send all British ships/troops/air units back to India. He saw no reason for British troops to hang around any longer. Australia was concerned with Australia. The US had no troops and only a few destroyers (and maybe a light cruiser or two) and the commander of the ships told the Dutch commander that he would stick around has long has possible and then flee to Australia. The Dutch high command wanted to stick with the DEI because it had been part of their empire for about 200 years so has far has they were concerned it was Dutch land they were fighting for.

So to make a long story short the Dutch would have never sent any of their troops, recourses, or supplies to India has long has there was even a slight chance for them to hold on to DEI. And by the time they had figured the end had come it was to late to leave because the Japanese fleet had bottled em all up on Java.

[Toro]

My stance on the oil vs fuel. I prefer to nab the oil. As noted above, it's used to produce more than fuel, but also to produce ships, aircraft, troops, etc. Running out of oil is very bad. Although, I do like the idea of pulling fuel with AKs (haven't done that yet). Also a good note: oil left alone is also left for the Japanese to take back home. Sure, they have to ship it, but that's expected. When they do, it runs their economy (something that has to be shut down).

Like most of you, I pull base forces, but only from non-production site bases. Maybe it's a left-over from UV, but I always found I needed more base forces in that game... And, those base forces from the airforce are much less to convert to another HQ than USN base forces.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

A good PBEM player will escort every transport

The AI (against me, anyhow) is escorting the transport TFs. Not with Cruisers (except for one big invasion in Malaya) but wth PC/ML/MSWs.

I dont really consider those escorts [:'(]
Maybe against subs but thats about it.
They are no match even for a DD and they provide very little AA support.

As the IJN you just have to use bigger TF's so that you can escort them all. This means more trips but less of your ships in Davey Jones locker.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

If you read the current AARs, it seems like a lot of Japanese players do the same thing as the AI. Which is they do not have enough warships to cover and guard all the convoys, thus leaving some unprotected. Thus with people coming out and saying that the slow expansion tactic for the Japanese is the best approach.

[Toro]

I haven't played the Japanese myself yet (though I'm itching to, soon), but I think a rapid expansion is what I'd do.

Why: it seems essential to push the Allies out of the SRA arena, allowing me to control their points of approach. Sure, many supply/cargo TFs won't be covered, but most may not require coverage if the Allies are limited to sub ops in the SRA. More important to get the oil/resources and establish a relatively stable front line AWAY from the oil/resource sources.

Anyway, I'll know more when I try it...

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

Toro,

For your reading pleasure. [:D]

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... m%3D678415

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

This topic raises an interesting question....given the squabbling among the ABDA command at the time, is it realistic to assume the Dutch would agree to mass movement of their resources and oil? Does anyone have any historical basis for this strategy? Was it planned or attempted? As for the surfact units, the willingness of the Allies to contest the conquest of the SRA with a surface fleet and the almost total annihilation of said fleet in the Battle of Java Sea (27-28 Feb) makes me believe defending the resources was the decision at the time.

Just curious...

GOOD POINT. The Dutch were adament about fighting for the NEI. Pulling out a lot of
they're equipment to fight in the CBI is most a-historic. Playing whatever games you
can come up with to keep the Japanese from getting reaources is just fine..., but you
shouldn't really be able to take Dutch Combat units out of ABDA until Java is falling.

What's really annoying is the way the scenario set-up splatters Dutch feul and supply
all over the map where it can only really help the Japanese. Just how much gas and
rations do you really think the Dutch stockpiled for the HeadHunters in New Guinea?
It's either out there to help the AI along..., or some sneaky Japanese "FanBoy" has
been at work.

[denisonh]

If you don't keep the PBEM player "honest", he will not escort his transports. Anything the Allied can do to slow the IJN player down and make him "cover" his advance buys valuable time for the Allies to solidify defenses elsewhere IMHO.

PBEM players will adapt.

And as for removing the oil, the main reason the IJN needs the oil is to feed his industry. Denying him that is much more critical than the fuel piece IMHO.

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

If you read the current AARs, it seems like a lot of Japanese players do the same thing as the AI. Which is they do not have enough warships to cover and guard all the convoys, thus leaving some unprotected. Thus with people coming out and saying that the slow expansion tactic for the Japanese is the best approach.

years so has far has they were concerned it was Dutch land they were fighting for.

So to make a long story short the Dutch would have never sent any of their troops, recourses, or supplies to India has long has there was even a slight chance for them to hold on to DEI. And by the time they had figured the end had come it was to late to leave because the Japanese fleet had bottled em all up on Java.

[DrewMatrix]

how much gas and
rations do you really think the Dutch stockpiled for the HeadHunters

Actually they are stockpiling it so they can sell it to Haliburton in 60 years. [:)]

Seriously:

Well, they would have some stockpiles for commercial reasons. I have noticed in Scen 16, BTW that they start that scenario with NO stockpiles of Oil or Resources (there are stockpiles in US/India/China).

Was that intentional? Oil and Resources do start builiding up from turn 1, however.

[Toro]

I have noticed in Scen 16, BTW that they start that scenario with NO stockpiles of Oil or Resources (there are stockpiles in US/India/China).

Was that intentional? Oil and Resources do start builiding up from turn 1, however.

Sounds like a mistake. You might want to drop a note in the bugs area.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

It is like that in scenario 15 as well.

[DrewMatrix]

Regarding small Surface Combat TFs:

Someone posted that a huge Surf Combat Tf results in many of the ships not shooting (they may be "in a part of the battle line that is not engaged") unless the enemy TF is likewise huge.

So I have been using smaller TFs. I even have them in the same hex (if the IJ is unloading at one of my bases). I speculate this may increase my chance at least one of them does get engaged.

[Toro]

Doh! Thought you were speaking of the Japanese, not the Dutch.

Dutch reserves? Dutch reserves? We don't need no Dutch reserves. We don't need no stinkin' Dutch reserves...!

[Toro]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Regarding small Surface Combat TFs:

Someone posted that a huge Surf Combat Tf results in many of the ships not shooting (they may be "in a part of the battle line that is not engaged") unless the enemy TF is likewise huge.

So I have been using smaller TFs. I even have them in the same hex (if the IJ is unloading at one of my bases). I speculate this may increase my chance at least one of them does get engaged.

Smaller TFs are harder to spot. However, which ships engage is based on an algorithm that determines which ones are "in range." Some just don't make it to the battle in time...

[Nikademus]

a future house rule i will ask for and employ in PBEM is no mass dutch evac (iesp the ENG units). The dutch would never wholesale abandon their empire. Just plays better that way too.

[benway9]

i'm with nikademus on this one. it seems highly unrealistic that the dutch would just abandon their territory after 200 years of "ownership". i think they would fight as long as possible. just seems to be gamey to pull everything out from the beginning. just my opinion.