Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[steveh11Matrix]

So Noted.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

Yes, Nate Groups are set to upgrade Oscar, Tony, or Tojo. A player isn't given the option of which Nate groups upgrades to Tonys. It is fixed regardless of production, the military situation or the players choice.

According to list I got yesterday (friend gave it to me - he got it from either here or from Spooky'a) the Ki-27 "Nate" can only upgrate to Ki-43-IIa "Oscar" and that's last update (please look at table below):

[font="Courier New"]
Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
[/font]

Are you saying that this table is inaccurate and that some Ki-27 "Nate" upgrate to KI-61 KA1c "Tony" or Ki-44 IIb "Tojo"?


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

HI all,

ORIGINAL: Drongo

All you can do in the editor is tell one air unit or aircraft type specifically what the next upgrade step (aircraft type) will be. You cannot set an upgrade path of "any fighter", etc.

So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Drongo]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...

Early in the beta, that was the only choice. However a field was added to the air unit's database entries that (if containing a value) will force the air unit to upgrade to a different upgrade path than that which would have been derived from its current a/c type.

This possibly also answers the question you asked Culiacan Mexico.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
According to list I got yesterday (friend gave it to me - he got it from either here or from Spooky'a) the Ki-27 "Nate" can only upgrate to Ki-43-IIa "Oscar" and that's last update (please look at table below):

[font="Courier New"]
Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
[/font]

Are you saying that this table is inaccurate and that some Ki-27 "Nate" upgrate to KI-61 KA1c "Tony" or Ki-44 IIb "Tojo"?


Leo "Apollo11"

I don’t have the game here, but at the start of the game (scenario 15) there are three Nate groups in Tokyo: two upgrade to Oscars and one goes either to Tony or Tojo… I forget which one. There is one Nate group in one China and one in Manchuko (sp) that also are able to upgrade to Tony/Tojo.

Most do upgrade to Oscars and die there. A few are able to upgrade to Tony/Tojo and then Frank… I don’t know where after that.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Drongo

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
So two squadrons armed with same aircraft type can upgrade to two different aircraft types?

Am I reading you OK?

I always thought that this is always "1st aircraft type -> "2nd aircraft type" upgrade...

Early in the beta, that was the only choice. However a field was added to the air unit's database entries that (if containing a value) will force the air unit to upgrade to a different upgrade path than that which would have been derived from its current a/c type.

This possibly also answers the question you asked Culiacan Mexico.

I see... I will look into WitP Scenario and Database editor then...

Thanks for info!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
I found that field (called "Upgrade") in Witp database editor!

[Captain Cruft]

It rumbles on ...

Well I guess the best answer to this is going to be to get the official scenarios edited so as to have rational plane upgrade paths for the army fighters. The navy stuff seems largely OK to me.

As an aside, what is the problem with playing unofficial scenarios for PBEM? I don't understand this, it's not like it's a tournament and there's money involved. If you do get really unlucky and end up playing a cheat then you just quit the game and never speak to them again. Simple.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Boah.... something really heating up (and gladly it is cold again [:D])

as a BTR/BOB guy, the main nonunderstanding point of view is the restriction of "fighter A (IJA) to fighter B (IJA)" thing...

as i understood the japanese production, they lacked a lot things.... but if "we" (as the japanese) or the AI (cause i am the allied) make it better as historical, has less losses and more supplies from sra to the homeland and later lba-attacks against its industries, it should be allowed to optimize the things...

i can´t understood the "why not the p51 from the beginning" or the "i want F22 - cause everything is fantasy" speaking.

What is the problem. The same failure of gamedesign is in the allied side...
if i have 300 Spits more as i need, but 4 groups with "lesser" planes who wait for the ThunderboltII i belive it is stupid that i can´t change em to this...

sure, because these groups flew HISTORICALLY not these planes is a point.
But on the other hand, do we know why they not flew the other planes ? Maybe cause they had so little of em ? This system we have now here in WitP is the worst of all possible systems...
We should either have the solution "no control" with stupid results (cause you have 1000 planes in the pool you do not need and never had produced any longer after you got the "better" new plane, this would be a minus, but okay, many games aren´t perfect.

or, we get the you can upgrade any plane in a row if they are in the pool (with a experience minus, cause a Spit V to a Spit VIII is a difference to a Thunderbolt (for example)) and some other logical things like IJN does not up/downgrade to IJA or Bomber to fighter etc....

A restrictive btr-system would be perfect for me.... ad i will ever accept any user scenario that includes such corrections (so you can upgrade in the row cause you have allways the minimal nr. of planes in the pool, just be honest and don´t use em if you haven´t produced em... so you can allways "upgrade peggy to ki21" if you have a lot ki21 in the pool and accidentally upgraded em (in my adopted system) to ki49s...

This should be true for both sides, just the research thing should be a favourite for the japanese side (cause the pac war was a side area of ww2 for the allies (maybe the navyplanes could be different...., but not for the "important" army planes... pac war was too unimportant for that)...

it seems that the real problem come with the "allied fanboyhood" (no blameing)... these people see it from the perspective "i play as the allies" and ignore the possibility that the axis player can do better as historically (and they cry if this happen)... but if this would be true, the game should be only playable as the allies....

But also, with the editor, some fair people (no, i never would play a mdiehl-scenario [:D] only as the allies side, sorry, just kidding) creating campagins that correct these "failures", everything is fine...

i think, if mogami would do such scenario we could be sure that it will be fair (and not fanboysided...)

i play the game from both sides, do not care the fanboyhood (still love to correct hellcat/corsair vers. spitfires) and think the game is great and is worth to buy it....

[:)]

[Andy Mac]

Much as I would like to have more flexibility if I accept that we are not going to get it is there an acceptable compromise whereby and extra dozen or so Oscar 2 gps get an additional upgrade option to Franks or Tojos so that if a player produces enough of these types he can populate the gps.

Is that the work around that would be acceptable to the Japanese players.

As a mostly Allied player I detect its late war japanese fighters that are the majorproblem.

(Although I must admit I hate as an Allied player having Seafires in my pool and being stuck with Fulmars in mid 42 until i can upgrade to Dec 42 please please delay availability of Seafires to stop me torturing myself)

ANdy

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Much as I would like to have more flexibility if I accept that we are not going to get it is there an acceptable compromise whereby and extra dozen or so Oscar 2 gps get an additional upgrade option to Franks or Tojos so that if a player produces enough of these types he can populate the gps.

Is that the work around that would be acceptable to the Japanese players.

As a mostly Allied player I detect its late war japanese fighters that are the majorproblem.

ANdy

Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

I believe a big design mistake has been done with this hard-coded plane upgrade model - justified for a 1.5 year long operational strategy game such as UV but not for a 5 years long global strategy game such as WITP.

Now, it is up to Matrix & 2by3 to decide what they want to do. They can either :
- introduce an "on-the-fly" BTR-like option for the players who want it ... and so show once more that, unlike most publishers, they really listen to their customers' feedback [:)]
- tell us that the WITP design will not be modified and so ask us to try to find some rough work-around with the editor (such as the one proposed by Andy Mac) ... with the risk of angering some WITP buyers and so losing some future Matrix Games sales [:(]

[steveh11Matrix]

ORIGINAL: Spooky
Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

Just as a curiosity thing: How do you know that, Spooky?

Steve.

[Lemurs!]

Hi all,

I edited for 13.5 hours yesterday and have finished most of the upgrades, fixes etc.

I revamped the aircraft upgrade system yet more so i think it is pretty much as good as you can get within this system.
There are no fantasy elements to my scenario 26. No F/A 18's.
I hope to have this on Spooky's site later today because I would like to play rather than edit. [8D]

I did miss one thing however; When patch 1.2 came out the readme did not list the OOB changes. Does someone have a list of OOB changes in the patch?
I had thought Kid said he was going to list them so i looked under his recent posts and did not see this.
Can anyone help?
Either email or just point me in the right direction.

Michael
lysimachus@charter.net

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
I did miss one thing however; When patch 1.2 came out the readme did not list the OOB changes. Does someone have a list of OOB changes in the patch?
I had thought Kid said he was going to list them so i looked under his recent posts and did not see this.
Can anyone help?

Either email or just point me in the right direction.

Michael
lysimachus@charter.net

The OOB changes were ommited from documentation that went with the patch but Matrix/2by3 listed it afterwards in "sticky" thread that announced v1.21 (I don't know if v1.20 had OOB changes) ...

Hope that helps...

1.20

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... m%3D674621

1.21

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... m%3D676241


1.21 OOB Changes

Scenarios 2, 8, 15 and 16
Removed 23rd Australian Brigade (2591) from Darwin, Replaced with Gull Force Battalion (2591) in Darwin and Lark Force Battalion (2600) and placed in Rabaul (714)

Scenarios 8, 9, 13, 14, 15 and 16
BB Mississippi arriving with wrong class (1214 - October 42) changed to Dec 41 (179) class

All Scenarios
BB Warspite Upgrade class 1406, 20mm ammo in slot 10 set to 0, and weapon could not replenish ammo. Changed to 36

Scenarios 10 and 11
Fixed Warspite class ships Warspite (3174) and Valiant (3175) and Queen Elizabeth (3176) 20mm ammo in slot 10 from 0 to 36


Leo "Apollo11"

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

ORIGINAL: Spooky
Matrix is now aware of this thread so I believe we should get an official answer when they are back from the World Boardgaming Championships 2004.

Just as a curiosity thing: How do you know that, Spooky?

Steve.

I sent yesterday a mail to Erik with a link to this thread.

Even if he was at the World Boardgaming Championships and so probably without a good Internet connection, he took the time to write me that he will take a look at this thread when he is back next week.

So I wish to thank Erik [&o] for his devotion to the Matrix gamers community

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Spooky

I believe a big design mistake has been done with this hard-coded plane upgrade model - justified for a 1.5 year long operational strategy game such as UV but not for a 5 years long global strategy game such as WITP.

Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...


BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data


Leo "Apollo11"

[Lemurs!]

Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.
Now I can finish this and get it to Spooky.

Don't end your site Spooky-wan Kenobi, you are our only hope!

Mike

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...

BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data

Leo "Apollo11"

The point is that we do not want any fixed upgrade path. Since we can decide all the aspects of plane production, we want to be able to decide with which planes a Japanese squadron is going to be upgraded - with of course some limits : IJN -> IJN, IJA -> IJA, fighter -> fighers ...) - like in GG's BTR !

What you propose is an useful work-around - but unfortunately still a work-around [:(]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.

Michael, no problem at all... glad to help you...


BTW, you, obviously, used WitP Editors the most of any of us here (except for WitP BETA guys).

What do you think of its usability and user friendliness?


I posted one thread in "Scenario Design / Game Editor":

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... m%3D668455


Can you please comment there what would you like to be, possibly, changed in editors to speed up the editing?

I also have several ideas and I think that if enough of us ask for reasonable changes this can be done!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Spooky

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Why do you call this "hard-coded"?

If data can be altered to our needs using WitP editors (Scenery and Database) then it is not "hard coded" IMHO...

BTW, I think just to change aircraft upgrade paths is not that difficult - all we need to do is:

#1
Agree what are "normal/regular" squadrons and devise the upgrade path for aircraft they use in aircraft data

#2
Agree what are "experimental" squadrons and devise the extra upgrade path for aircraft they use in airgroup data

Leo "Apollo11"

The point is that we do not want any fixed upgrade path. Since we can decide all the aspects of plane production, we want to be able to decide with which planes a Japanese squadron is going to be upgraded - with of course some limits : IJN -> IJN, IJA -> IJA, fighter -> fighers ...) - like in GG's BTR !

What you propose is an useful work-around - but unfortunately still a work-around [:(]

I don't know... IMHO the game engine is like it is and my proposed soulution is, again IMHO, only possible way (out of rather big possible code rewrite which I doubt would happen)...

If we all (as community) do our work OK we can fix this and get what we want by simply using current game engine capabilities...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Apollo11,

Thanks alot man! That is exactly what I needed.
Now I can finish this and get it to Spooky.

Don't end your site Spooky-wan Kenobi, you are our only hope!

Mike

OK, Princess Lei ... Sorry ... Mike

Don't worry, the site is not going to be closed [;)]