Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[Tanaka]

More interesting questions about the upgrade paths that go along with this discussion:


Composition of airgroups on accelerated CVs


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Japanese CVs beginning with Taiho arrive having an airgroup composed of one daitai each of A6M5 Zekes, B6N Jills, and D4Y Judys. The normal availability dates for these types are 9/43, 12/43, and 11/43 respectively. It is possible however to accelerate construction of several of the Japanese CVs such that they arrive considerably in advance of these dates. What happens to these airgroups if they enter the game before there are planes available to fill them? I can imagine that they would show up empty. If that is the case, will they then fill out later as the appropriate aircraft become available? If a player should decide to accelerate construction of these ships, he should probably also put a corresponding effort into trying to accelerate availability of aircraft for their air groups.

Does anyone know the composition of the air groups for Chitose and Chiyoda if they are converted to CVLs? I would assume that when they become available following this conversion, they appear with their airgroups already embarked?

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Captain Cruft
Matrix Veteran






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Another symptom of the aircraft upgrade model.

I am guessing you can look in the database editor to see what airgroups the upgraded Chitose and Chiyoda have.


irrelevant
Matrix Hero



RE: Composition of airgroups on acc... (in reply to Captain Cruft)


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quote:

I am guessing you can look in the database editor to see what airgroups the upgraded Chitose and Chiyoda have.

Yeah, I'll do that when I get home tonight if no one does the heavy lifting for me in the meantime. Seems like I always finish my morning commute with my head full of questions. Worst thing about working is it interferes with more important things like WitP.

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Hard Sarge
Matrix Hero




RE: Composition of airgroups on acc... (in reply to Captain Cruft)


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Well on the Allied side, I know some of the CVE's come in with replacement Squadrons full of planes that are not being built yet (Hellcats/Helldiver)

(which also kind of stinks, as they jump from 24 to 50 planes, just about the time you are waiting to make a Wildcat squadron into Hellcats)

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Okay guys, this is the reply I got from Joel Billings to a e-mail I sent to 2by3.

As you said, in a big game like this there are some compromises. I can't say what was the driving force on this decision, whether it was the time it would take to provide the interface, the unrealistic nature of allowing easy changes of planes in a non-historical manner, or if it was the desire to avoid the play balance implications of allowing an anything goes upgrade path. I remember that all three came into the equation at the time we were thinking about it. There were so many issues like this that we had to deal with, that I can't remember when or how the decision got made. It's possible that Mike Wood (the patch programmer) will at some point in the future change the system, but I would bet it's pretty low on the priority list given the work involved and the more important needs to fix obvious bugs and other items that come up. Mike and the Beta testers track the Matrix forums and if it's being discussed there, it's likely to come up at some point (if it hasn't already). Thanks for the feedback.

Joel Billings

Clearly we need to make it more of an issue and raise it's importance if we want something done about it.

I will be sending off an email shortly and recommend others do the same if they are interested in increasing the importance of this issue.

[MadDawg]

Folks, could someone make a summary of just what the issues are at the moment [:)]?

Ive been following this thread but so many points have been raised and dismissed that I am lost as to the current concerns and possible solutions thereof.

Dawg

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Folks, could someone make a summary of just what the issues are at the moment [:)]?

Ive been following this thread but so many points have been raised and dismissed that I am lost as to the current concerns and possible solutions thereof.

Dawg

The base issue has always been...

If you have X number of aircraft that is better than an oscar 2, why not be able to upgrade to it. This is of course in the same line such as IJA fighter upgrades to a better IJA fighter.

R & D and all the other fluff was thrown in to the mix but isn't really a part of the original and main problem brought up.

[MadDawg]

Fair enough, Ive seen this problem myself.

So a solution to this would probably also allow Kamikazi groups to use mothballed aircraft, as they did historically? Currently you are foced to either locate an airgroup somewhere with older aircraft and move it east or use your modern aircraft for such tasks.

Dawg

[Sultanofsham]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

[

The base issue has always been...

If you have X number of aircraft that is better than an oscar 2, why not be able to upgrade to it. This is of course in the same line such as IJA fighter upgrades to a better IJA fighter.

R & D and all the other fluff was thrown in to the mix but isn't really a part of the original and main problem brought up.

Also need to be able to downgrade a groups aircraft too. Not just for the Kamikazi groups but there will be points where drawing older aircraft from a pool would be more help than sitting around with a very under strength group.

[steveh11Matrix]

It's enough of an issue to me that I'm delaying a decision on buying the game over it. Does that rate as important enough?

I want to play as the Japanese, see if I can do better than the original, and get the reward if I do. I also want to be able to make reasonable and justifiable decisions about aircraft deployment that aren't simply down to 'that's what the game allows me to do'.

Steve.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

buy it... you could allways use the editor, make a upgradepath you like and you can play....
it is a gamestopper if you only want to play per pbem and try to play ONLY with people like mdiehl who will cry if you do not loose all carriers at midway or manage to drop a torpedo in the second row of bbs at pearl [:D]

so, buy it, train with the editor and kick some enemies rectums....

it is true, that this is a huge disadvantage, but you can manage it...
buy it...

[steveh11Matrix]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi
[...]
it is true, that this is a huge disadvantage, but you can manage it...
buy it...

Why put myself through the slog when it's unnecessary? I'll play something else until it's resolved. At the moment it's SPWAW and/or NGC. If HOI2 comes out before a real fix to this problem I might buy that instead.

The point is that this is a really ugly way of straitjacketing a player. Back in the days of boardgames there were some pretty awful things done, but I can't recall any game that I enjoyed playing that had this kind of 'force' applied to a player. It makes things unnecessarily complex - If I have 20 aircraft sitting around, and need them deployed somewhere, why shouldn't I be allowed to do it?

Steve.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Hard Sage,

well, if you play as the allies, you propably have kicked jap asses....

if i play as the jap, i hope i kicked allied asses and this means that the pilots will be drawn from the bad side of the pool, too... so if my planes could help my (hopefully) experienced pilots to kick the allied ass harder, this is important.
Cause with nates i can´t hit anything even with elite pilots... and the jap player has here (correctly) a huge disadvantage

also, if you say it is not really an issue, why do matrix do not give us this feature offically ?

The shinden is surely something different, but also, if the japanese player manage to produce the plane in large numbers, why should it be forbidden to kick allied asses ?

Is this the problem ? That the jap side should only suffer after 43 ? indepentent from the game situation ? Again, they can´t win.

Also, even with a lot numbers as the allied, i want to use the planes i have at will.... this means if i have 300 Kittyhawks in the pool and my spits suffered heavily, i want to downgrade...

so, i do not see it from the fanboy perspective... but some (not you !) players here really want the jap side (their enemy) to suffer only and to not strike back after 43... they want to destroy the fun in the game, cause what good purpose do i have, playing the japanese, if everything i did should not improve the situation ? I agree that the automatic upgrade stuff sucks... cause if you have r&d you have to develop all planes in a row, not side by side... but this would not improve the situation for these special "players"... their picture is "jap sucks from 43 and everything in the game that does not show this results is wrong..."

but as i mentioned some times, just let us play user created scenarios, with houserules... if these ultra fanboys does not like what they see there, they should stay away... same is true if the people who critizise the actual way are only a small minoity.

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

It's enough of an issue to me that I'm delaying a decision on buying the game over it. Does that rate as important enough?

I want to play as the Japanese, see if I can do better than the original, and get the reward if I do. I also want to be able to make reasonable and justifiable decisions about aircraft deployment that aren't simply down to 'that's what the game allows me to do'.

Steve.

Do like me. Buy it and only play Lemurs' Scenario 26 mod in PBEM. I will play the others against the AI because the AI needs all the advantages it can get.

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Adnan
I think you may be misreading me

I want both sides to be able to use there upgrade/Pools

what I was trying to say, is I don't follow the idea that if the JP player can upgrade to Tonies, Tojos, Franks and Georges, it will unbalance the game

(if you change the JP plane to Frank Ia's and Georges in June/July 43, the Hellcats and F4U4's will be able to deal with them, the Spit V will be able to in 42, so I don't see it as a unbalancer)

{the Shidin is a different story, if it was a normal plane, I would say great, but that plane would of had a very large learning cycle, being a pusher and all, so I don't think it could just be thrown into the mix and tell the boys to go have fun)

HARD_Sarge

in my game, my question is, is the AI JP player, going to be able to keep up the losses (aug 42 to 46 camapaign) in two months he has lost 2400 planes

he might get the late war planes, but don't think he will be able to find anyone to fly them

[steveh11Matrix]

Not the point, I don't want to have to go through unnecessary hoops.
I don't mind the ai (arrtificial stupidity?) having advantages, but making me go through artificial nonsense deployment wasn't what I had in mind! [:)]

If Matrix can't/won't change this, then perhaps an option to remove production & R&D altogether, and providing only replacements, but allowing free deployment, would be the way to go (within type & branch, I think those are fair restrictions).

Steve.

[2ndACR]

There is no hoop to jump thru with Lemurs'. It is another scenario that gives you the freedom with upgrades that we want. It just is not "official".

I mess around with Scen 15 & 16 against the AI. The restricted upgrade paths will not hurt me against the AI.
For PBEM I only use Lemurs' until this issue is resolved either way. A human is just too cagey to mess with as the IJN player mid to late war.

The game is worth getting either way. Moucho worth it. It will be on my hard drive ALLLLOOOOOONNNNGGGGG Time.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

buy it... you could allways use the editor, make a upgradepath you like and you can play....
it is a gamestopper if you only want to play per pbem and try to play ONLY with people like mdiehl who will cry if you do not loose all carriers at midway or manage to drop a torpedo in the second row of bbs at pearl [:D]

so, buy it, train with the editor and kick some enemies rectums....

it is true, that this is a huge disadvantage, but you can manage it...
buy it...

Lemur's #26 is a nice band-aid on this problem. Good upgrade paths now for most everything. Doesn't answer the flexibility issues that can ONLY be answered, fully, by the game allowing "on-the-fly" upgrade path changes and downgrading. It may be the best we are going to get.....

[steveh11Matrix]

It is my understanding - and I'm fully prepared to be corrected - that Lemur's mod doesn't allow free up-and down grades, it just (just!) opens things up and removes the worst cases. As such a partial solution, not a complete one.

I would have added the usual 'also it's not official' comment, but I've learned better. For example the C.O.R.E. mod for HOI is the best way of playing that game (IMHO anyway!). I don't suppose Matrix' own Steel Panthers changes can in any way be said to be 'official', can they? Certainly the scenarios can't. So unofficial or not, if Lemur's mod solves the problem, that'd be the answer.

Steve.

[Banquet]

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

It is my understanding - and I'm fully prepared to be corrected - that Lemur's mod doesn't allow free up-and down grades, it just (just!) opens things up and removes the worst cases. As such a partial solution, not a complete one.

That's correct.

For me, this issue isn't a game breaker. I'll still continue to play, and it'll still be an excellent game. It has certainly put me off playing the Japanese though, and this was what I was ultimately looking forward to doing.

A system of trying to match production to preset squadron replacements is just silly.

Please allow us to put whatever aircraft we have available into squadrons. By all means make it realistic with reduction in experience, or enforced training periods. Fix research so we can't cheat (although I'm convinced no one who's posted here had even thought of that as a motivation for requesting this!)

I don't want a complex system that ultimately I can only screw up but not use for any benefit, even if I have the means. At the moment Japan has 2 choices aircraft wise. They can do as badly as they did in the war, or they can do worse.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

It is my understanding - and I'm fully prepared to be corrected - that Lemur's mod doesn't allow free up-and down grades, it just (just!) opens things up and removes the worst cases. As such a partial solution, not a complete one.

I would have added the usual 'also it's not official' comment, but I've learned better. For example the C.O.R.E. mod for HOI is the best way of playing that game (IMHO anyway!). I don't suppose Matrix' own Steel Panthers changes can in any way be said to be 'official', can they? Certainly the scenarios can't. So unofficial or not, if Lemur's mod solves the problem, that'd be the answer.

Steve.

You are correct. Lemur's scenario simply removes the dead-end upgrades that stop on junk. All planes now eventually upgrade to the uber-planes availaible at the end of the game. And some models have different upgrade paths within types by unit to attempt to add at least a little flexibility. The changes most seek, however, cannot be accomplished by an editor, but would require substantial code changes. Lemur's is about as good as it will get using just an editor.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Hi Sarge,

that is exactly what i want to say...

i allways said i want it for both sides too (and the downgrade too)... and if the japanese player can manage to kill as much allied planes as you did as the allied side against em, he is still locked on.

But how do you did it ? 2400 kills in 2 months...

oh, i think you have broken the jap ai´s neck...

for the shinden - if the plane is superior to the allied ones it should be possible that it can balance out some things... cause the japanese player who managed the counterstrike of the allied stream of weapons deserve the "ultimate" plane...

oh, i allways would play the allied side in such pbem... if i had time for such things in the moment... [:@] just work work work work.....
sorry i drift away..

now, maybe we can manage this up/downgrade for both sides, what do you think ?

[Mr.Frag]

For those still debating this ... How are you dealing with training pilots?

This changing of aircraft produces the situation where 100% of your front line units would be in your good aircraft and 100% of your training groups would be in your crappy aircraft since you can switch them around anytime you want.