Taking Burma and India

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

This is more for the Jap fanboy club but an interesting topic none the less for everyone.
The more games that I play the more I am beginning to think that the Japanese have a chance at taking India and thus knocking Britain out of the war in the pacific ( And also therefore cut off the supply to China). The RN that is currently in the Bay of Bengal is not that much of a problem as a few carriers can hand this without too much of a sweat. (As I am finding out in my PBEM against Luskan). The hard part would be getting past Burma and doing so with some speed. I guess that you could even think about simply by-passing Burma all together and simply land two to three Divisions in India.
Once the Japanese have access to the Indian rail network they could fly across the map with little to stop them. Any of you Jap Fanboys have any thoughts on this that you like to add?

I have one big hole to poke in this theory. Unless you are going to land locomotives &
rolling stock, where do you get the means to "fly around" the sub-contenent? If the
game allows the bossession of a piece of (probably damaged) track to place you sud-
denly in control of a national RR system, then the game is flawed in the extreme. Track
is only a part of a RR System..., without the rest you just have a flat but bumpy trail.

[Nikademus]

If an LCU.....any LCU (Allied or Japanese) reaches a fast hex (highway/rail) it can rapidly travel to it's next target. Supply is not an issue. If it manages to capture an empty base...that base's supply becomes immediately avail to the intruder and can even act as supply source.

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Not enough supplies produced. You might get half way.

OK, so what if you ship it into Diamond? It will get to the troops if there are enough HQs around, right?

As for Mike Scholl's comment....can we simply assume that a portion of the supplies being produced and/or shipped in is being used for the purpose of rebuilding and restructuring the rail net. IMHO regauging track is not an engeneering task of the same magnitude as building a bridge or repairing the facilities of an ail field. The Germans did it in Russia largely with forced labor, the Japanese did the same with the Burma railway (and they had to build from the ground up).

[Blackhorse]

IMHO regauging track is not an engeneering task of the same magnitude as building a bridge or repairing the facilities of an ail field.

I don't think regauging is the main obstacle. Finding and maintaining rolling stock (working engines and cars), and repairing / replacing destroyed sections of track would be the major difficulties.

The Germans could realign the Russian rail net to tie in with their existing rail lines, then move their own rolling stock -- and replacement rails &tc -- into Russia. Japanese forces invading India would not have that luxury. Everything necessary to maintain a rail line -- locomotives, cars, the rails themselves -- would have to be sent by ship.

Only if British resistance in India simply collapsed, and the Japanese captured rail lines, rolling stock, rail yards and manufacturing facilities intact, could one expect the Japanese Army to make rapid use of the Indian rail network.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

IMHO regauging track is not an engeneering task of the same magnitude as building a bridge or repairing the facilities of an ail field.

I don't think regauging is the main obstacle. Finding and maintaining rolling stock (working engines and cars), and repairing / replacing destroyed sections of track would be the major difficulties.

The Germans could realign the Russian rail net to tie in with their existing rail lines, then move their own rolling stock -- and replacement rails &tc -- into Russia. Japanese forces invading India would not have that luxury. Everything necessary to maintain a rail line -- locomotives, cars, the rails themselves -- would have to be sent by ship.

Only if British resistance in India simply collapsed, and the Japanese captured rail lines, rolling stock, rail yards and manufacturing facilities intact, could one expect the Japanese Army to make rapid use of the Indian rail network.

I know, even in WIR (the old Apple II version), as the Soviets retreated and Germans advance, all Russian rail hexes became clear terrain hexes and the Germans had to build their own rail. I would fully expect a collapsing British/Indian situation in India to utilize some sort of "scorched earth" strategy and either pull back all the rolling stock or blow it all up! Basically, the rail system in India should be completely useless to the Japanese, as like in Burma, they'd have to rebuild it all from scratch, or at least regauge it all.....

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

IMHO regauging track is not an engeneering task of the same magnitude as building a bridge or repairing the facilities of an ail field.

I don't think regauging is the main obstacle. Finding and maintaining rolling stock (working engines and cars), and repairing / replacing destroyed sections of track would be the major difficulties.

The Germans could realign the Russian rail net to tie in with their existing rail lines, then move their own rolling stock -- and replacement rails &tc -- into Russia. Japanese forces invading India would not have that luxury. Everything necessary to maintain a rail line -- locomotives, cars, the rails themselves -- would have to be sent by ship.

Only if British resistance in India simply collapsed, and the Japanese captured rail lines, rolling stock, rail yards and manufacturing facilities intact, could one expect the Japanese Army to make rapid use of the Indian rail network.

I know, even in WIR (the old Apple II version), as the Soviets retreated and Germans advance, all Russian rail hexes became clear terrain hexes and the Germans had to build their own rail. I would fully expect a collapsing British/Indian situation in India to utilize some sort of "scorched earth" strategy and either pull back all the rolling stock or blow it all up! Basically, the rail system in India should be completely useless to the Japanese, as like in Burma, they'd have to rebuild it all from scratch, or at least regauge it all.....

Valid points guys. Perhaps this should be pointed out to Matrix for the patch. I personally dont claim to know these intricacies. Does anyone even know if the Japanese and Brit gauge and rolling stock was that different? As far as I can tell, both used a relatively similar collection of hardware, ie narrow, small engines, etc. How much of an issue would it be logistically to pull rolling stock from say, French Indochina, and setting it to work in India?

[Sneer]

I switched from Allies to Japan to find more challenge against AI.
I managed to capture singapore till 20th of Dec( Johore Baru landing) + taking Rangoon close to that date + landing in Chandpur( 3DIVS + 2ARM +3ART+ENG) early Feb. By 9th of Feb I have troops fighting Calcutta. Cut off whole Burma Captured Ledo and total amount of troops used to block Yunan states at 2 Div + 4 Bde + 2 Arm so even Chinase troops from Yunan were put back
Imperial Guards should take Akyab in a few days.

balance
Should block Yunan easily
Clear Burma by mid March.
Capture Diamond Harbour & Calcutta by Mid Feb.

Baatan is only blocked as I try to avoid losses as much as possible so it may hold even till april/may


I do not think it is possible to be cut off.
POW&Repulse + many light vessels are sunk.
there is sth like 150 LBA at Rangoon & Tavoy + good recon + 5BB+1CV+2CVL+support operating on costant basis from Chandpur&Rangoon. Ai lost most of planes by now.

I should have invasion force for Karachi ready within 2 weeks (2div+1bde+arm& support) and invasion should take place in mid March

by the end of 42 there should be nothing like india & burma problem in game.
with Chinase beaten almost back from main railway all effort will be put on holding against US

Main problem is how to put scoring off to avoid Auto victory[8D] in late 42

[Twotribes]

As a note a bunch of Chinese divisions are SE command not China command.

[esteban]

Yes, you should send these SEAC Chinese divisions into northern Burma. If they can keep the supply line open, that is great for the Chinese, and it takes some of the pressure off the Brits.

[BlackVoid]

Beating the AI is easy.....
Not even worth the time to play it.

[Ron Saueracker]

With no monsoon season modelled, the Japanese have a much simplified problem to deal with.

[Sneer]

Ai it is only way to play campaign
sorry but I can't imagine playing longer scenarios PBEM
Maybe we should make a strong lobby for MAtrix working on AI a little longer ???

[mjk428]

I had my "perfect" Burma defense strategy thwarted by the AI. It took less than 3 weeks to do what took the Japanese months to do in the war. What I hadn't taken into consideration was how quickly the enemy could move on rail hexes it didn't own. The Japanese took Lashio & Myitikyina before the Chinese units that were dispatched on 12/7 could even arrive there.

The AI ignored Burma and concentrated completely on Singapore, which fell on 1/7/42. This was my 4th start and I haven't seen such a concentrated effort on Singapore before. Only then did it start moving on Burma. BTW - The only thing I had done to weaken the defenses was to pull one of the Australian brigades and drop it at "Trimcomlee". Don't like having that base so undefended. I realize the AI isn't likely to take it but I play against the AI as if it is smart. That way I can't complain about it not exploiting my weaknesses.

Anyway, I had decided to abandon Rangoon and defend a little further north because the units would be easily cut off in Rangoon.

I had split a brigade to act as speed bump outposts. They were completely wrecked and at best slowed the advance a day each.

2 divisions took Mandalay in only 2 days. Attacked across a river and blasted right through the 4 brigades & 3 engineer units that were frantically trying to raise the fort level at Mandalay. Then it did a very smart thing. 1 Division kept going straight and took Myitkyina while the other turned right and took Ledo. So the Burma campaign that hadn't even began until after 1/7 ended 1/27. The Chinese units that were given their marching orders on 12/7 are left 1 hex from there original objectives (Lashio & Myitkyina), completely exhausted and have no hope of winning on the attack. I'll just let them sit there.

Realizing now that what I thought would be slow going for the Japanese through Burma isn't until they hit the trails. I expected it would take at least several weeks for the IJA to get passed Imphal. In retrospect it seems as the Allies you either have to fully commit to saving Rangoon or cede most of Burma and concentrate on defending around Imphal. The problem with throwing everything into the mix around Rangoon is that if you lose, there's nothing left to defend India. With such low quality troops, that's not a gamble I'd want to take.

edit -

I had expected to help the defenders at Imphal with lots of ground attacks. Unfortunately very few of these missions were launched and the couple that did were very small and had little effect. This even though they were launching from a level 6 AF with 20k plus supply, more than enough aviation support, and an air HQ. This may have been due to weather but as was stated, the bad weather has no effect on ground movement.

IMO, movement rates into enemy territory should not be the same as they are in friendly territory. In general, ground combat may be improved from UV but it's still by far the weakest part of the game, again IMO.

[Sneer]

and that's why units used to Malaya campaign should be used later to capture Chandpur or diamod harbour. If you add troops from Philipine campaign later you have over 10 DIv + 5 BDE+ 6or7 ARm + 7-8ART in March /April and there is nothing which could stop you unless Allies managed to withdraw many troops from Malaya and played successful withdrawal action in Burma.
I'm starting thinking that you should keep very strong garrisons north of Burma - otherwise you are dead
There is no sense in going to the trail part of burma - just take Akyab on one hand
then keep dacca and second railway north + secure Ledo +Myitikyina. With all new troops heading to Chandpur there little sense in lossing 2 months to get past trails [:-]
If you destroy Malaya army and later push burmanese brigades to Yunan then you have sth like 1500 assult points in calcutta + blockaded Yunan + another 1500 assult points underway