Von der Heydte

[Rooster]

The "Lion of Carentan" looks more like a paper tiger with such marginal values. Was his performance in Market Garden really that mediocre?

[PJJ]

Yes, I too think his values are a bit low (considering what he and his regiment did in France). But I'm not an expert of Market-Garden, so maybe he didn't do that well in this operation.

[Arjuna]

Golf33,

Can you look into this mate. I agree they should be higher. I suspect we've lost his details on one of those export/import jobs. Oops.[:o]

[old man of the sea]

Von der Heydte was a great leader, but the 6th FJ was a bunch of green kids at this battle. Dispite an impressive 33 KM night march and some good opening advances by the 6th FJ it stalled out against light resistance from the 101st Division.

Maybe the designer cut down von der Heydte because the 6th FJ was a unit full of green kids in September of '44?

E

[Golf33]

This looks to me like von der Heydte's HQ has been given the default values on force creation. I agree they should probably be a bit higher since he normally performed well.

Wait out for further information [:)]

Regards
33

[Error in 0]

ORIGINAL: old man of the sea

Von der Heydte was a great leader, but the 6th FJ was a bunch of green kids at this battle. Dispite an impressive 33 KM night march and some good opening advances by the 6th FJ it stalled out against light resistance from the 101st Division.

Maybe the designer cut down von der Heydte because the 6th FJ was a unit full of green kids in September of '44?

E

Soldiers that have not experienced combat are usually referred to as 'green', but they may still be hard as nail. Hitlerjugend was a green unit. If Von der Heydte was a good commander, I suspect the poor performance was due to lack of good equipment and plainly poor soldiers. If these things are modeled only through setting the commanders ability, it is surprisingly shallow for a game like this.


JT

[MadScot]

A commander is often only as good as his staff; if he was basically given an untrained mob and told "get it done" then the greatest officer in the world would struggle; after all, he has to sleep sometime, and everything will quickly go to hell if the second in command is useless at that point.

[Rooster]

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
If these things are modeled only through setting the commanders ability, it is surprisingly shallow for a game like this.

The game models troop quality quite extensively. Here you can see that the troops of VdH's HQ are portrayed in the game as farily good quality.

[Rooster]

And here you can see a company that is also not too bad. The other companies are "Veteran" or even "Crack" when it comes to experience.

[Rooster]

But, as in the scenario below, I was able to drive the 6th FJ into retreat and lethargy with just artillery, even tho their axis of attack would have taken them into my dangerously unprotected HQ and arty units. The reason they stopped (in the game) would appear to be the quality of the leader rather than the troops, when (in reality), as the oooooold man of the sea pointed out, the opposite was probably the case.

So - leadership qualities would appear to be very important in the game. This is just a data error which Panther is about to fix. Thanks guys! [&o]

[Rooster]

Plus the man knew his house music. [:D]

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: Rooster

But, as in the scenario below, I was able to drive the 6th FJ into retreat and lethargy with just artillery, even tho their axis of attack would have taken them into my dangerously unprotected HQ and arty units. The reason they stopped (in the game) would appear to be the quality of the leader rather than the troops, when (in reality), as the oooooold man of the sea pointed out, the opposite was probably the case.

So - leadership qualities would appear to be very important in the game. This is just a data error which Panther is about to fix. Thanks guys! [&o]

'Just artillery' [;)]? If you concentrated your fire into their FUP, which is what it looks like in the screenshot, I'm not surprised they didn't get anywhere. Forces in an FUP are very vulnerable to being disrupted since it produces a dilemma (take cover from fire or get in position and reorg for the attack), the resulting disorganisation increases the duration of the reorg and hence the vulnerability of the force, and the overall effect is often to doom the attack before it gets started. Indirect fire is a particularly good way of doing this [:)]. They are also attacking over open ground towards two artillery batteries, one armoured, and the other of which is in position to engage them from the flank with direct fire as well if they get too close. I can't tell their condition from the screenshot, but if they were fatigued they would also be a lot more likely to break up (and artillery fire contributes significantly to fatigue, as well).

The low stats for von der Heydte would contribute but I wouldn't go right out and say 'this is what causes this situation' because the modelling in the game is complex enough that it isn't generally possible to isolate a cause and effect like that (as in real life). Certainly I wouldn't expect the commander's leadership, charisma and what-have-you to have much of an effect past those troops immediately around him. It doesn't help to have a top-notch brigade commander 1500m to the rear when your platoon is currently getting pounded!

Regards
33

[Arjuna]

Spot on Golf33. Albeit the last sentence, because having a top notch leader nearby will reduce their probability of breaking.

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Spot on Golf33. Albeit the last sentence, because having a top notch leader nearby will reduce their probability of breaking.

So this is valid at all levels through a force? If the brigade commander is very good, but the battalion commander is ordinary, and the company commander is downright rubbish, which has the most influence on the behaviour of that company under fire?

Regards
33

[Arjuna]

IIRC the units commander has the most significant effect and then its immediate superior. Commanders above that level don't affect it. I don't have the code base open at the moment. It's Sunday morning and I'm supposed to be relaxing. [;)]