Cheaper at EB, how?

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Hexed Gamer
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Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Pricing.

Ok this is not about digital downloads for starters :)

It is about the differing prices from a store bought item and the price direct from Matrix Games.

Example one HTTR.

It appears to be on sale for 49 here at Matrix Games at the moment (note to all I am using Canadian Prices, so keep up hehe).
I think it was originally listed at 69 (can anyone confirm that it has been lowered in price recently?).
At any rate, it is selling at EB (or was while in stock) for 39 the reason I leaped on it being obvious, 39 is less than 69.

I have seen and continue to see Korsun Pocket on the shelf for 39 (I only shop EB by the way).
It lists here for 49 from Matrix Games.

Can't confirm if Squad Assault has this difference, but I have seen it on the shelves at least.

Ok question is this, how is EB selling it for less than any normal schmuck can get it for from the source?

If EB buys it, in the normal retail universe, they add X dollars and call it "their" cost. I am no specific expert in business, but these people we call "middlemen" always "add" something to the cost of an item when they get between the source and the customer.
Or at least that is what I grew up knowing.

Sooooo who are they getting it from, where they can sell it for less than it would cost me to buy it direct from the source?

Because something doesn't make any sense here.

I know for instance that corner convenience stores accept a loss on selling milk. It's called a loss leader in the jargon of corner convenience store sales by the way.
The milk draws you into the store, and they attempt to get you to make other sales while there.

Milk is thus sold at a loss. They make zero cash off it. They actually lose cash on it knowingly. When done as a major chain store, each location owner is reimbursed by the parent organization for that loss. It's the reason for wearing a name like 7/11 and having a higher office tell you how to run your business essentially.

Now I doubt Matrix Games products are being sold in EB outlets as loss leaders, so hmm what's the deal?

49 bucks to obtain from Matrix Games, sold on shelf for 39 bucks, means they are out 10 bucks. Even my math is nopt that bad :) These are also pre taxation and or shipping sums.
Tax at the counter or shipping and taxes if through Matrix Games.

Inquiring minds want to know, why are the prices at EB lower, and how did they manage it.

Not that I am complaining, of course I ain't complaining. I plan to pay the lower price whenever possible. To do otherwise is stupid.

After reading all the downloading from digital download problems, and all the hellish confusion over EU members buying US products, am I merely seeing yet another reason why it is better living in Canada? :) (probably not).
But I am certainly wondering how it is, EB can sell to me for less than the source can.

Heck, EB sells the retail box w/manual versions people, and cheaper than it is from Matrix Games. A person would have to understand why maybe buying retail is more attractive (to me at least). Even though I have previously stated I have no personal problem with buying via digital download (removes my trouble with getting to the retail outlet which is often very sporadic at best).
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by 2ndACR »

I wonder if they have to buy the games from Matrix before selling them? I pay for some of my inventory before ever selling it, then sometimes have to knock the price down sometimes below my actual cost just to get rid of it to make room. You take a small loss, but recoup most of your expense. At least more than having the item just sitting on the shelf.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Understandable, we all know of "the bargin bin" syndrome.

But these games are not being placed on the shelf as marked down, they are being priced as starting at 39 not ending up there.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by 2ndACR »

I do not make the distinction between "marked down" and "full" price either. I would say they want to empty or move their inventory.
That is why 2 months after MOO3's release I could find the game at CompUSA for 19.95 down from 49.95. Did not say marked down there either. They wanted it gone.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Ok question is this, how is EB selling it for less than any normal schmuck can get it for from the source?

If EB buys it, in the normal retail universe, they add X dollars and call it "their" cost. I am no specific expert in business, but these people we call "middlemen" always "add" something to the cost of an item when they get between the source and the customer.
Or at least that is what I grew up knowing.

Sooooo who are they getting it from, where they can sell it for less than it would cost me to buy it direct from the source?

Because something doesn't make any sense here.


You are assuming that Matrix make the same amount on a copy sold (possibly via further middle-men) to retailers than on a copy (downloadable or otherwise) sold direct. They don't, or anything like it... as you say, everyone else must make their profit too.

It's low volume/high profit or high volume/low profit per copy. When they do both, it's an attempt to maximise the overall profit - which is what they are in business for. The only reason it becomes an issue is that retailers are not obliged to sell at the RRP (and indeed would be foolish to do so, if they have copies left unsold) and usually discount to a greater or lesser extent. Remember their overall volume of sales is much greater than those Matrix sell directly - Matrix can't offset low profits from niche (and all their games are "niche") games against huge sales of the Doom 3s and Half Life 2s.

Personally I'd rather pay a little more and see the money go direct to publisher/developer (not to mention getting a download version a month before anything else is available), although I agree it's a little foolish to pay Matrix $50 if you can buy the same product elsewhere for $20.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Marc von Martial »

EB or any other store is not Matrix Games. They sell their products for whatever price they think is good for them. We see only very little of EB or other retail sales.
Heck, EB sells the retail box w/manual versions people, and cheaper than it is from Matrix Games.

Your two examples are sold with manual and box from us also. Both were games of our little retail chain experiment. EB does not add more to a product, they simply sell it.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Paul Vebber »

And as a "volume reseller" they get a fairly big discount, part of which they can pass on to the consumer if they want. The problem is when they decide to "dump' a game at less than their cost (to eliminate supply chain cost which makes it sometimes cheaper than returning unsold product). Then customers think the cheap price is the "price things should be" despite the fact at "bargain bin" we are not seeing any real profit. And may well have lost a "full rate sale" - a double whammy to our bottom line.

We have found that the additional sales at lower profit in the retail chain actually cost us money (compared to a % of those customers buying direct at a much higher net to us) that is why we are not going to be using theretal resellers much in the future.

Abusiness can't pursue policies that cost it money for very long and stay in business.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Thanks for the input guys.

Just reinforces my stance, that I will support digital download (even though it might make prices "seem" higher, in the end, it is almost likely "the right thing" for Matrix Games to do.

I can't object to Matrix Games doing "the right thing" :)
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by freeboy »

Hi Paul,
I have been out of the retail loop for some years, but in a former lifetime, seems that way, I ran a retail store and was a regional manufacturers sales mngr dealing with major warehouse type stores, Costo etc. I really do not see how if EB buys 10000 units or 1000 and sells them for any price how if you have already sold it to them why them selling your product costs you, other than you could have not SOLD it to EB. Are you saying that "dumped" games are charged back to Matrix? If so then you guys need better contracts, returned products or dumped games are very different, and if you guys get a charge back on dumped games then I guess that would explain why you are not "friends " with the EB's of the world. Whenever we had a product issue, only a credit for future sales would insue, so if costco returned an item, they already had paid for they where never getting funds back!!! Clearly I do not understand your position regarding dumped games... but I do agre you folks are the leaders for...
A. Getting it right, even if it takes a long time, uv had what 5 patches?
B. Putting the time into great products and helping designers... I am a tester for ggwaw and am really amazed at the efforts so for by both Matrix staff and 2x3...

Please continue to go direct, put think about helping us out every now and then on the pricing, like buy ten get one at half price...
Lets see, I bought httr, 2 versions of IL2, Campiegns on the Danube, KP/TAO3,origoanal Pacwar.GGwar in Russia,UV,WITP,and atd... BIN coming up ..[:D]
Sorry if I ramble, need my second cup, damn this lo caf stuff[:-]
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Hmmm freeboy said what I was saying, but sems to have phrased it better than I did :)

Yes, basically what he said, if Matrix Games sells 100 or 100k units to the EB chain, the question is of course, exactly how much did Matrix Games sell the shipment for?

If I was in charge of EB games and I just bought 100K units of a game, and I couldn't get rid of it till I gave it away, well that's 100k sales where I lost money.

Not a disaster if I only bought 100 units that didn't move, but 100K units of inert product, that makes a difference :)

Now if EB negotiated to buy 100 or 100K units but would only buy the 100K units if Matrix Games gave them "a deal" that's different (and also not my business hehe).

Under those conditions, yes unloading 100K units on EB for say 29 bucks a unit, and then EB says this schlock won't move at 49 so we are putting it out at 39 and in the process under cuts Matrix Games by 10 bucks and still makes 10 bucks for EB, then yes, it was a bad idea to give EB the deal in the first place.

One thing is for certain. If I made a game, and figured I needed 49 bucks to make selling it profitable enough that there was a point in even making it, then it would be 49 bucks for one or 100 or 100K units. Because, if I determined I needed 49 bucks, then 49 bucks is what you is gunna give me hehe.
And if it turns out a flop its' a flop. If it turns out to be a hit and I sell 50% more than I had expected, yippee. That means if the next game is a turkey I have a bit of cushion :)

Soooooo, David, if you want my input, always sell your game for what you decided it was worth, and never flinch on that decision. Whether I buy 1 or 100K units.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by ravinhood »

Don't you think though Marc, reducing the cost to at least marketable retail prices such as $39.95 and $49.95, offering at least a CD included in this price plus shipping that you would get more direct sales and profit than you are marketing a game for $70 + $10 for the CD? I'm not sure if you offer free shipping or not at those prices, but, for WitP those prices are rediculous. Even if retail outlets don't get Witp and many of your later games, why cut off your customers for years?

There's already a supplier for HPS games that reduces the cost by $18 over direct purchase from HPS, now who do you think I (we) are going to buy from? We want to save money as much as you want to make money, needs to be a happy median between the two parties I think, instead of lopsided.

I'm more than willing to buy direct sales at "reasonable" prices compared to todays retail outlets prices (not counting sales an bargain bin), plus shipping. But, no way in hell will I ever pay $80 for a game. No game is worth that I don't care if it's Civilization 3D with motion captured animations w/Britney Spears dancing half naked doing ingame vocals.

But, I think it's reasonable for you to say "you don't care either" if I buy the game, all you care about is reaching your own goal of a bottom dollar amount, who gets the game gets it and the rest are SOL. ;)
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by SlapBone »

I have just in the past week picked up all Matrix games that I was interested in. All bought from Fry's:

HTTR- $50
Korsun- $40
Titan's of Steel- $10

I also got a nice little side bonus of finding Strategic Command for $20.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Cmdrcain »

Don't forget a Chain or Retailer may pre-order x Units of a title, if it doesn't move fast enough and it has incoming New product soon they have to get it to move and clear shelf space and stockroom space for the incoming product.

So A title can be sold lower, if its the price it is at when placed on shelf, it could be that the retailer wants it to move fast so cuts down from the list, don't forget too that no retailer ever buys full price
their buying at a pct less then the List price, if they sell at full List is their business, they may discount it yet be selling it for a bit over what they Paid, they might for instance have paid $25 a game for a $49.95 list selling at 39.95 and still making a profit.

Even If they sell a product to clear it out of stock, and lose money on the sales they can write off those losses against other profitable items, (loss leaders offsetting profit makers)

When I ran a service Station in 70's we at times ordered a bulk order of Tires, Piles of them, to Move fast we never sold them at Full List but at only a few dollars over what We paid.... we however (grin) recouped some in charging for Balancing and Mounting the tires....
Perhaps the Tire would cost us $15 each The list being $30 and We sold at a $20 Price With the List price noted and the Mark Down...

People would buy thinking a set of 4 saved them $40.... We gained $20 profit and any amounts for balance/mounting... The Pile of Tires and all would be an eye catcher and bring people in to look.

In retail world theres many ways to price things and often "discounted" things still makes a store profit, just a slimer profit margin.

Or a products sold at a loss but to get in business, also it can be possiable for a store to stock a product cause several good customers want it, and so sell it under list to get rid of the extras since usually you have to buy a certain amount of a product in "lots"
stores will do o since their good customers also buy other things at full retail.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by ravinhood »

I have just in the past week picked up all Matrix games that I was interested in. All bought from Fry's:

HTTR- $50
Korsun- $40
Titan's of Steel- $10

At Amazon.com

Korsun Pocket $34.88
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 46-8648630

Highway to the Reich $39.88
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 46-8648630

Titans of Steel $14.99 (I've seen this in Best Buy less than $10 though)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 46-8648630

Strategic Command $11.50 (used) $19.99 new
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 46-8648630

Here's an EYSA (Eric Young Squad Assault) at a reasonable price. $19.99 (buy it now no waiting). ;)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... eName=WD1V

Also Amazon.com offers "free shipping" on orders over $25.00 and no tax, so you could have saved even more using Amazon.com


Yah, I may sound like a tightwad, but, with todays economy every penny counts as much to me as it does the developers and publishers. I must look for savings whenever I can. I now have the "patience" to do so, whereas in my 20's when life was immortality and money grew on trees, I bought everything under the sun upon release just about also. ;)
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Paul Vebber »

Basically we have found that in retail, what the contract says doesn't mean much. Individual stores will do whatever they feel like.

See when you deal with a chain retailer, they don't buy "up front". They basically take them on "consignment" and they basically sell what they can and give you back the unsold portion. You can stipulate a "no lower than" price, but its basically impossible to enforce, since they account for sales on a store by stor basis and you would have to sue each individual store if they "mismark" stock. THey alos typically have a "minimum" on each box that they automatically make on each box sold.

So in retail, you basically send a bunch of games to a chains warehouse. THey send them out to each of their stores. Then at 120 day inverals for 6 to 10 months they send you some money and a bunch of unsold games. You are left to try to figure if they took you to the cleaners or not.

If you don't like those terms, don't let the door hit you on the way out. THere are far more games that want shelf space, than available shelf space.

THat is basically why we are only going to send "mass market appeal" products to retail as you basically lose control over the price and the chain makes its 5 or 9 bicks a box min no matter what their arrangement. If you sue them, you'll never sell a game with them.

THey have you over a barrel.

And yes, if I have 10,000 games - send 5000 of them to retail, lets say I sell 2000 on the internet (making 30 bucks a game) and 4000 at retail (making all told after teh above shenanigans, say 5$ a game, then even if only 1/4 of those who buy at retail would have bought on line in stead, we would have made more money (30*500 = 15,000 > 5 * 2000 = 10,000

Buying cut rate games just drives us out of retail. Good for you in the short term, bad for us in the short and long term = basd for you in the long term.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Sarge »

Matrix is not alone in this guys (forum members), I recently seen CMBO and CMBB at EB and both games were marked $ 9.99 each [X(]. Go look at what you would pay online for them at Battlefront .
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by freeboy »

Thanks for that lucid and torid account Paul, retailer beware the internet and Walmart are coming.. lol
How about time off for good behavior, I mean credit for title bought? no worrines and thanks again
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Marc von Martial »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Don't you think though Marc, reducing the cost to at least marketable retail prices such as $39.95 and $49.95, offering at least a CD included in this price plus shipping that you would get more direct sales and profit than you are marketing a game for $70 + $10 for the CD? I'm not sure if you offer free shipping or not at those prices, but, for WitP those prices are rediculous. Even if retail outlets don't get Witp and many of your later games, why cut off your customers for years?

I'm more than willing to buy direct sales at "reasonable" prices compared to todays retail outlets prices (not counting sales an bargain bin), plus shipping. But, no way in hell will I ever pay $80 for a game. No game is worth that I don't care if it's Civilization 3D with motion captured animations w/Britney Spears dancing half naked doing ingame vocals.

But, I think it's reasonable for you to say "you don't care either" if I buy the game, all you care about is reaching your own goal of a bottom dollar amount, who gets the game gets it and the rest are SOL. ;)

We feel the the price for WITP is just right for a game of this scale. Even the original Gary Grigsby games back in the 80s were not cheaper, sometimes even more expensive, so with the inflation considered we could actually have it even more expensive. You can add the CD (and soon box) if you like but you don´t have too. So how the price sums up is at your choice.

You might also want to note that not every game from us will costs 70$. There will be cheaper games, there will be "normal" (for the people that love to compare niche product prices to mass retail prices) priced games, and games that will cost 10 or 20 $ more then your "normal" game.
Don't you think though Marc, reducing the cost to at least marketable retail prices such as $39.95 and $49.95, offering at least a CD included in this price plus shipping that you would get more direct sales and profit than you are marketing a game for $70 + $10 for the CD?

It might be that the "sale" figure ( in terms of sold items) might be higher, but the profit might be lower at the end. And since we´re a company that needs to pay it´s employees money, so they can still afford making wargames, we have to look not how many itmes we sell , but what our profit is. We´re not a charity thing that only exists to have wargames happy. Of course we want you all happy but we also have to keep this ship afloat in order to be able to keep you happy.

You´re of course free to buy our games wherever you want , as long as it is legal sources, and as a customer you of course have the right to compare prices too. But just one thing to remember, waiting for a game price to drop below the "profit" margin of the developer and then buy it, is not going to help the developer stay in business at all. This mght work with EA Games or the other big fish, but in the long run it will kill small companies like us or HPS.

You dont get a collectors item car kit for the same price as a Toyota.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by ravinhood »

So then Marc, why don't you (Matrix) and HPS and SHRAPNEL all incorporate? Then you can become the one BIG bannana on the block for strategy wargames for wargamers? Is the market that small that it's not worth cornering? As far as EA, heh, I bought Madden 2004 last year, it's the only EA game I can remember buying since "Heart of Africa" wayyyy back in the late 80's. I'm not sure if they took over the Ultima's, but, after Ulitma IV, maybe V, they weren't much worth buying. I guess some of us are just used to retail support for wargames. I go back so far with SSI and SSG in all of the 80's. I swear that was the best of times for computer wargames, even if they did have miniscul graphics, they all were very good and for 2mb games, very good AI. I still think Dave Landrey's War of the Lance game and AI is still one of the best if not the best, you guys should wake him up out of his long extended non-programming sleep. He also did "Battles of Napolean" yah know? ;)

I was piddling around with EMPIRE DELUXE tonight, anyone remember that one? Setting all the AI to expert and playing the advanced game, I got my butt smoked. lol But, it was fun, it was challenging and is about as simple a beer and pretzels wargame (I guess you can call it a wargame), that anyone could play and still get that kind of value out of it after so many years. A couple of mb's of game, is better than a lot of gigabytes of games out there today, now that is sad, really sad. And probably my biggest reason for looking for games at a discount. I almost know before I even buy them what I'm going to get, and at my age now, I don't feel I'm getting as much as I pay for, compared to what I got in the 80's.

Heh, you know Marc, there was a time when you guys sounded like you wore jerseys and levi's, but, lately with these "support" issues, you sound more like "suits". There was a time when the garage/basement programmer was just dedicated to "creating" instead of dedicated to the almighty $$. ;) And I bet you said to yourself back then, you would never grow up and be like those adults or your parents huh? heh
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Marc von Martial »

Heh, you know Marc, there was a time when you guys sounded like you wore jerseys and levi's, but, lately with these "support" issues, you sound more like "suits". There was a time when the garage/basement programmer was just dedicated to "creating" instead of dedicated to the almighty $$. ;) And I bet you said to yourself back then, you would never grow up and be like those adults or your parents huh? heh

I have only one suit and that one I only wear on weddings [:'(].

Fact is we need cash to do this here. In the early years we invested a lot of cash to get this even running. Funds are not unlimited and everybody here needs to pay bills. It´s not that we are rich, wealthy or anything near that. Believe it or not. I don´t think it´s a sign of "bad charma" if you want to make some profit for your work. Or do you think SSI did all the work for free?

So you think we sound like "suits" these days? LOL, name me one company where the CEO and developers post constantly on the forums and interact with their customers.

I know, everything was better in the old days ........ [8|]
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