Matrix Aircraft Upgrades

[Sultanofsham]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Taking developer time away from global improvements when it could be spent improving the game for everyone needs to be thought about carefully ... looks like about 44% of the folks either don't want it or want to have it where it doesn't mess with their games.

Try 17% dont want it Frag. Another 24% dont want it unless its optional. Sure is alot less than you claim in the other thread about only 20% wanting it and holding the other 80% hostage. Nice way to say 44% to try and bolster what you want.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What makes YOU any better then THEM? They paid the same money you did.

Never said that it did. Care to point out where I did or is posting a flat out lie like this the only arguement you can come up with?

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What have *you* contributed to WitP apart from you lip?

[8|] And the point to this little gem would be what? Unless you have done something for the game I can have no opinion? or its just that anyone who hasnt opinions doesnt matter to you? Care to make it more clear?

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What makes you better then them or more deserving?

Again point to where I said that please, if you can.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
There are people who have been here for years putting forth feature requests that make the game as a whole better for everyone.

And that makes what differnce to a good idea brought up now? So if it wasnt brought up before it doesnt count? If more people want it then dont the idea should be held hostage to a Tyranny of elites (or a few who think they are) who were here first?

Get a grip [8|]

[mogami]

How do I know that, again, on Dec 7, 1941? Oh...I forgot....20x20 hindsight.....

8/16/2004 5:45:38 PM

Hi, I don't argue just for the sake of arguing. Your running Japan fron Day one. you can see the reinforcement schedule. You know when a group enters training and what it will be flying. You don't need 20/20 hindsight if your eyes are open during the game.

Do you concur that Japan will fight phase 1 with what she has at start and this is aircraft you'd like to be able to dispose of as soon as possible?

The better aircraft do not begin to arrive before the Allies achive equality in numbers and begin working on quality. The desire for better aircraft is simply the desire to prolong this period. I understand this. In practice I find I have enough of the better types to met my operational demands. The older types are still usefull. But it would simplify matters if all my equipment was better then what I will encounter.

Have you checked to see if this is even feasable?(replacing older models with newer ones)
How far into the game are you that you are ready to begin upgrades but are prevented by the game limits on upgrade paths? Have you calculated the cost? (supply is consumed equal to the load cost of the aircraft. Every factory converted costs supply at the moment of conversion and 1k per point per turn to repair.
Or is this debate simply "I'm winning so well that I can convert 1600 aircraft when ever I like." (If thats the case you hardly need converting)

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

How do I know that, again, on Dec 7, 1941? Oh...I forgot....20x20 hindsight.....

8/16/2004 5:45:38 PM

Hi, I don't argue just for the sake of arguing. Your running Japan fron Day one. you can see the reinforcement schedule. You know when a group enters training and what it will be flying. You don't need 20/20 hindsight if your eyes are open during the game.

Do you concur that Japan will fight phase 1 with what she has at start and this is aircraft you'd like to be able to dispose of as soon as possible?

The better aircraft do not begin to arrive before the Allies achive equality in numbers and begin working on quality. The desire for better aircraft is simply the desire to prolong this period. I understand this. In practice I find I have enough of the better types to met my operational demands. The older types are still usefull. But it would simplify matters if all my equipment was better then what I will encounter.

Have you checked to see if this is even feasable?(replacing older models with newer ones)
How far into the game are you that you are ready to begin upgrades but are prevented by the game limits on upgrade paths? Have you calculated the cost? (supply is consumed equal to the load cost of the aircraft. Every factory converted costs supply at the moment of conversion and 1k per point per turn to repair.
Or is this debate simply "I'm winning so well that I can convert 1600 aircraft when ever I like." (If thats the case you hardly need converting)

I can see the replacements. But come 1944 when all of a sudden, my Tojo plants just go blown to hell, but my <whatevers> are still pumping out good volume, I should be able to convert to Tojos to my <whatevers> to adjust to my new production reality. As it is, I'm fixed at game time with whatever mod I'm running. I can adjust production to deal with bombing, but I should be able to adjust my units as well. In fact I'd rather switch a unit than retool a plant in late 1944....

[Blackhorse]

Either you trust the designers or you don't.

Hi Mog,

In the words of the Old Russian Proverb, as quoted by Ronald Reagan, "Trust, but verify." [:)]

You make an excellent point that there are many factors ( your example: shortages of a particular critical mineral) that have to be abstracted in a game of this scope.

If I understand the production system correctly, the Japanese player can -- if he secures enough oil and resources and properly jiggles heavy industry and aircraft frame and engine production -- crank out more planes than the Japanese did, historically.

But the designers added a second obstacle (perhaps to represent specific critical mineral shortages, or other production bottlenecks besides engines, or perhaps just to prevent the player from taking advantage of 20:20 hindsight and producing only "successful" models) by limiting the number of squadrons that can be ugraded to the better models.

So a Japanese player who figures out how to produce more Franks can't actually use more Franks. The sole reward for successful game-play and for mastering a fairly complex model of resources and production is more Franks in the replacement pool.

In the words of the not-quite-immortal Billy Joel: It seems such a waste of time . . . is that what it's all about? . . . if that's moving up then I'm -- moving out.

I'm not flaming the designers or anybody. I'm just genuinely puzzled why so much time and effort would be spent creating an intricate a/c production model if the designers deliberately intended for it to have so little effect.

[mogami]

Hi Building more Franks does allow you to use more Franks. By maintaining your Frank pool the groups flying it can remain in combat longer. The problem was never and will never be having aircraft. It's having trained pilots.
This is an end around designed to allow the transfer of trained pilots to better aircraft.
I understand and concur. There should be a means of moving pilots around. Using Oscars to train pilots that then go fly Franks. But then how do we justify this? Why would the Japanese fly Sonias? (I don't upgrade the Mary and Ann before using up their pools)

To make my position "perfectly clear"

Every change to a design that works needs other changes. The more freedom allowed the more acurate the model has to be or fantasy sets in. Was it really as simple as Japan only needing to build 1000 more tank factories? I think in WITP I could pay for such expansion. and haveit running by mid 1942. Should I based on this then be allowed to form Armor Divisions ? (I'd build only the best tanks) The current system would allow it except for the silly restrction preventing me from forming any ground unit at all. I'm stuck with the historic arrivals and we all know these reflect the needs of the Japanese in WWII not what I might need in my game. If I could build 50 armor division I would have complete control of my production and would invade the Soviet Union via way of India.

OK some people only want to change 1 or 2 groups from time to time. And why should I care if another player wants to approach Moscow from the South? Because every change carries influence into the game. The space on my harddrive is now used to support someones masturbation fantasy about winning WWII as Japan via the Path of world domination. Gone is all connection to the game designed by 2by3. There are enough of those out there that they don't need to place there mittens on my one good war game.
I want players to play Gary Grigsby Keith Bors Mike Woods Joel Billings and Matrix Games War in the Pacific . Not some nonsense about a player becoming God in Japan and having unrestricted abililty to do what could not be done by the God Japan already had leading them. I still like being Japan. I still think I can win. (Sometimes) against humans. At any rate I'll have a lot of fun trying and I won't post AAR about losing because I was stuck with Oscar on the map and Frank in the pool.

[Mr.Frag]

So a Japanese player who figures out how to produce more Franks can't actually use more Franks. The sole reward for successful game-play and for mastering a fairly complex model of resources and production is more Franks in the replacement pool.

No, the point is that you will actually *have* Franks at the expense of *Other* aircraft.

This nonsense that Japan will have enough aircraft to fill out all her groups is total Dreamland. Fantasy. Myth. Not going to happen against anyone with even a quarter of a brain cell.

The choice is that you get to choose which of your groups you actually produce aircraft for. You can not produce aircraft for them all. You have to choose and prioritize what you make.

It's the very same choice you make when speeding up a ship. You choose to get that ship faster at the expense of other ships. You can't have both.

This whole discussion is brought about by the childish mentality that "I want my cake and get to eat it too".

Japan does not have the production EVER to produce what it needs. You as the player controlling Japan must choose what tou sacrifice to get what you want. It is not about getting it all. Anyone who has done any number crunching knows simply that there is not enough oil in the game to keep Japan running. Japan starts with a huge stockpile that lasts a while then is 100% dependant on shipping oil back home. Her industry is completely bound to imports. She will NEVER again see the production levels seen in Dec '41.

The great debate is from the "I want to not have to manage my industry so instead of taking all the production hits from *having* to manage my industry, I want to simply cheat and convert aircraft types to make up for this".

This breaks the model as the costs of having to shuffle your production numbers are no longer paid. This is a HUGE cost that is currently paid by Japan. It takes 100 Supply+10 Heavy Industry+10 manpower+1000 supply per point of aircraft production changeover. Changing aircraft types completely bypasses that cost. It is such a HUGE cost change that it will amount to doubling Japan's starting resources.

It also dramatically speeds up Japan's aircraft production as there is no longer any need at all to adjust her industry. This in itself completely separate from the costs will almost tripple Japan's output by getting her completely built and up to full production capacity prior to 1943. Again, Huge balance issue.


The basic problem is that the model does not factor in these two above costs because it was not planned to be done. If you want to have these costs factored into this *change aircraft* then it's perfectly ok as it is still balanced. Without refactoring these costs which are not part of the simple model of just picking random free aircraft, the model is reduced to silly levels with Japan's production exceeding that of the Allies. [X(]

If you need to see this in action yourself to understand, go take all the starting bases Off of R&D and put them to work making aircraft that are available.. Japan's production goes from 678 to 1787 in 120 days without spending a SINGLE POINT OF SUPPLY!

How anyone who plays war games can support such silliness of Japan actually outproducing the Allies is beyond my ability to fathom. Grogs? Where? What really kills me is that supposed "Allied fanboys" are supporting this when it will actually cost them the game. [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, I guess what I am really concerned about is not a Japanese player who converts OscarII to Frank in 1944 but one who converts Nate to OscarI in 1941.

(pilots in group to follow date is Apr 24 1942.)

[FirstPappy]

Hi Building more Franks does allow you to use more Franks. By maintaining your Frank pool the groups flying it can remain in combat longer. The problem was never and will never be having aircraft. It's having trained pilots.

But won't having better aircraft give your trained pilots a better chance of survival and thus increase, or at least reduce the decrease if you will, of trained pilots?

[mogami]

The group has been in constant combat from Dec 41 and has been holding up rather well. If it encounters strong opposition I send a Oscar and a A6M2 group to help it achieve air superiority. If I could simply convert it to OscarI it would make life so much easier.
Of course it would be totally divorceed from the reality that Japan existed in during this period and would alter the course of the war profoundly. It would be easy to support some of the wilder Japanese schemes I've seen posted.

[Lemurs!]

Okay, Frag, you as usual are just spewing shit, every thing you said was shit.

Japan does not have the production EVER to produce what it needs. You as the player controlling Japan must choose what tou sacrifice to get what you want. It is not about getting it all. Anyone who has done any number crunching knows simply that there is not enough oil in the game to keep Japan running. Japan starts with a huge stockpile that lasts a while then is 100% dependant on shipping oil back home. Her industry is completely bound to imports. She will NEVER again see the production levels seen in Dec '41.

you have not once had a clue what you are talking about... Japans production like every country in WW2
increased greatly by 1943. If there is not enough resources or oil in the game to support a 8 fold increase in production from '41 levels then that is a design flaw. There was twice as much oil being produced potentially in DEI for Japans military & civilian needs. The 8 fold increase was for the most part a lack of manpower. Not resources or HI.

What if i do well and limit the losses to my merchant marine and bring home 10% more resources and oil? Oh, in your worldview i am not allowed to do that because the Japanese historically were unable to defend their convoys. Well, i just started a game.. if, as you say, Japan is not allowed to change anything, why do we bother to play.

In my version i realize that i 'broke' the production system in one way... the Ki43-2 to Ki84 switch. Personaly, I see two flaws here. The first is that no switch should be free, but i agree that similar lines of aircraft could upgrade to each other cheaper. We already have A6 to A7 for free and Ki43-1 converts for free to the Ki61! And you have the gall to bitch about my Ki43-2 to Ki84 conversion!
The second problem is that the design decision is flawed from the start; having the upgrade path and the factory change for free path be the same is a huge mistake that should be fixed.

Mogami,

Every change to a design that works needs other changes. The more freedom allowed the more acurate the model has to be or fantasy sets in. Was it really as simple as Japan only needing to build 1000 more tank factories? I think in WITP I could pay for such expansion. and haveit running by mid 1942. Should I based on this then be allowed to form Armor Divisions ? (I'd build only the best tanks) The current system would allow it except for the silly restrction preventing me from forming any ground unit at all. I'm stuck with the historic arrivals and we all know these reflect the needs of the Japanese in WWII not what I might need in my game. If I could build 50 armor division I would have complete control of my production and would invade the Soviet Union via way of India.

OK some people only want to change 1 or 2 groups from time to time. And why should I care if another player wants to approach Moscow from the South? Because every change carries influence into the game. The space on my harddrive is now used to support someones masturbation fantasy about winning WWII as Japan via the Path of world domination. Gone is all connection to the game designed by 2by3. There are enough of those out there that they don't need to place there mittens on my one good war game.
I want players to play Gary Grigsby Keith Bors Mike Woods Joel Billings and Matrix Games War in the Pacific . Not some nonsense about a player becoming God in Japan and having unrestricted abililty to do what could not be done by the God Japan already had leading them. I still like being Japan. I still think I can win. (Sometimes) against humans. At any rate I'll have a lot of fun trying and I won't post AAR about losing because I was stuck with Oscar on the map and Frank in the pool.

Are you absorbing Frag essence? That is by far the poorest thought out post you have ever made.
Feel free to try to build 1000 tanks a month. One, i do not know if there are enough HI or resources to build all of that.
Two, the Japanese supply need at forward bases would be much highter which would require ships that you probably do not have.
And three, we are not working in Candyland like you and Frag, there are limits to production and thus if you build that many tanks you are not going to have artillery or rifles or planes or merchant ships. Good trade.

Actually, i have thought of adding 1 or 2 units to the Jap OOB. Just to give the player some choice. Because, as i have said adnauseum and you know, this will 'give' the Japs nothing. If you do not build the weapons they will be shells. Any extra armament construction will take from elsewhere.

Or are you subtly trying to tell us that the game production system is broken? Not much confidence.

end Mogami comments,

Besides the point that all of these arguments are wasting our time; We have asked for upgrade flexibility and you start screaming 'Fantasy construction! Building more than the allies! Doom and BFGs!'

Get over yourselves... you are wasting our time and our brain cells with your moronic spew. If anyone in your camp ever actually answered a question honestly i would probably just keel over and die.

You either trust Garys production system or you do not. If you make any further idiotic comments about the production system i will know that you think that Gary's game is broken.

It will be interesting to see your response.

Actually, it won't... Frag has never read a post in his life.

Mike

[tblersch]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Can someone please explain to me what exactly is their problem with Japanese production.

You feed in oil and resource.
produce heavy industry points
use these to produce other items.

It will never produce enough items to off set the Allied production advantage.
It requires minor tweeking from time to time to continue supporting existing units and providing for the introduction of the new units.
It is not an instant response system. (There was one post where the poster complained new land units did not arrive at 100 percent. Are land combat units created over night at 100 percent?) Players seem to want Japanese pilots to arrive trained in numbers to allow excessive loss so they can conduct operations without fear while ignoring that portion of planning that dictates you perserve your force. Players appear to want to be able to produce only those aircraft they think worthy rather then using what the Japanese thought good enough. By including production they think they are no longer an Operational commnader but the Japanese arms Minister. Production is included as a target for Allied Operational planning. Japanese Operational Level planning is to provide the means for the industry in the first phase and defend it there after. It's detail is to add depth to both sides Operational conduct of the war not to supplant this. I think players are misunderstanding this. The intent is not to be "a game within a game" I can see where production might be confusing or disappointing if you move your focus from operations to war production managment.
As Japan plan for what you industry will support. Counter enemy efforts directed against it. As the Allies you know the ultimate objective is to have B-29 in range of Home Islands.
The whole game on the surface is rather simple. I only see problems if you try to use it for something else. It is an OPERATIONAL level game based on WWII in the Pacific. Not an economic model of that contest. (That is why the Allied production is so limited. It was not a target of Japanese Operations.) Because the Japanese system was the primary target it was required to have more detail. I'm sorry I am unable to verbalize this concept. I think this is where the root of all the discontent and misunderstanding lies.

As for 2by3 and Matrix not addressing this I can only say we all have short memories. Nothing here is new and it has been covered many times. Well before the release of the game this was a major topic of discussion. Had industry/production been anything else I would have posted detailed coverage of my treatment of it in AAR. I believe in more then 1 AAR I covered Japanese Phase 1 Operations in detail as to their impact on my production (explained why I conducted some Operations and excluded other possible paths) I don't want to claim responsiblty for the present system but during testing I focused on it. As such it was my feedback that produced it. So any problems can prehaps be laid on me. My concern was not to change the production system but to test that it worked according to design. I feel it does. Prehaps it could be explained better. (I'd begin the treatment with "Don't expect miracles"

Having read the previous thread on the topic and now this one, I understand what you and Frag are saying: the game is intended to place you in the role of a Zeitzler or Keitel rather than a Speer (pardon my European bias...I don't know who Speer's Japanese counterpart would be). As such, the Japanese production model exists to give the Japanese player an overall objective: defend your industrial capacity and keep it running. You do this by feeding it resources you acquire and defending sea lanes...which in a very small nutshell is the grand-strategic goals of the Japanese campaign.

Fair enough. As a design goal, I understand and even agree with it. Some of the peripheral issues raised I understand are irrelevent (e.g. downgrading kamikaze groups - obsolete planes in the pool are recycled into resources anyway, according to the manual, so it's a non-issue), and some I understand but disagree with (the ability to preferentially research and produce plane designs with the ahistorical perspective of what Japanese planes are the best performers - valid point, but not one I'd emphasize). But overall, by now I think I have a decent grasp of the issue, and Matrix's/2by3's perspective on it...

...except for one thing. I still for the life of me can't fathom why the Japanese player is given so much control over the production model if he's ultimately unable to benefit from any of the labor he puts into it. Or even more basically, as a question of software design: if the design goal was to create an operational-level simulation, isn't the provision of so much production flexibility to the Japanese player counter to that express design goal? That's what really gets me: by all apperances, it's a product of an uncertain direction: it's either an overly-complex model for an operational simulation, or a woefully incomplete model for an economic simulation. Can someone explain that basic dichotomy to me? At this point, the best solution (to the problem of: what precisely is this supposed to be modelling) seems to me to be to turn off the production model as the Japanese player (which is possible through the preferences, as I recall) and use the fixed production and arrival times...which seems to me to more accurately reflect what the game's supposed to simulate. But regardless, the design conflict between the intent of the simulation and the actual implementation thereof seems to be what's causing all the nattering and gromishing...and personally, irks the living crap out of me. The features are what they are, but it would sure make me a lot more comfortable if I heard something that addressed the "why" and "how" of how these features became implemented as they are.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Get over yourselves... you are wasting our time and our brain cells with your moronic spew. If anyone in your camp ever actually answered a question honestly i would probably just keel over and die.

Please do not presume to speak for "us," your majesty.

Is there still any such thing as being banned for making personal attacks?

[mogami]

Hi, In a normal game without effort I was producing 600 tanks per month. It would require little effort or stretching to expand to 1000 but there is no reason to do so as 600 per month is meeting my demands and adding to the pool for future use.

Increases in Japanese production in WITP are easy because they require generic supply and resource. I am not limited in steel production or chrome stock piles.
This is why I say the more freedom you allow the more realistic the system needs to be.
Japan did increase her production out put. (mostly after 1943) however in WITP I can pass that by early 1942. I restrain myself.

The problem with upgrades is not being understood. Boith Frag and myself in princable are in favor of it but only if the Japanese play is not allowed to retain the present unrealistic production system. Without exploiting the system as designed the upgrade the entire Japanese airforce is not possible. What will occur (as designed) is older groups combine together as they are depleted. This allows the production to switch to build and maintain the fewer groups of newer aircraft. Disbanded groups of Oscar do not return. (since your not building them any more) However the Oscar will remain in service for quite a while because you cannot build enough newer types to make do without the groups you already have.

The counter trump that is being played "Is what if I do better" Well then your pretty good and your Oscar Groups will be in service longer while your newer groups are better maintained. But you'd have to go quite a ways to do much better then the Japanese did up to 1944. Of course you start sooner but you reach the limit sooner as well.

Can you post a screen shot of your large unused pools of Frank and all the healthy Oscar groups waiting upgrade? I mean has this lack of freedom actually hurt you in a game?

[mogami]

Here is a screen shot of Japanese production 24 Apr 42.

[mogami]

With only a mild expansion of vehicle production the pool is rising. The prior status of this game was posted in another thread several weeks past. Japanese manpower fell to below 100 but now that nearly all on map units are 100% TOE it is on the rise.

I am producing almost 800 aircraft per month and only newer models. All on map groups are full strength (or less then 10% understrength) I have many groups training pilots.

Notice engine production is already at 1700 per month. All this without paying major attention to the system. I'm importing more then enough oil and resource and have a large pool of unused HIP. Only the requirment for supply is preventing a major expansion should I desire it. Currently I'm more concerned with supply for phase 2 operations.

[mogami]

except for one thing. I still for the life of me can't fathom why the Japanese player is given so much control over the production model if he's ultimately unable to benefit from any of the labor he puts into it.

Hi, Because it is his life so to speak. He does benifit from it. He keeps producing supply and fuel and maintaining his units. He is given freedom so that he can exercise control over where his imports are used. All these posts about expansion are from players who are still interested in conquering the world. They have not been placed where they are fighting for their life. Against the AI there is little need for upgrades or doing much in the way of production control. The war will end on 1 Jan 1943 long before it has any impact of operations.

In PBEM you will come to understand why it is there. But you will also learn a sad truth.
Japan lives while it's production functions. But production cannot replace winning battles with planning before the production ever has impact. The expansion most players will make early will go largely idle. (many will wish for the return of their investment in supply they can use to fly airgroups and feed troops)

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Can you post a screen shot of your large unused pools of Frank and all the healthy Oscar groups waiting upgrade? I mean has this lack of freedom actually hurt you in a game?

I think if someone could provide such a screenshot, many would agree with the changes proposed. Has anyone done this? I don't think that anyone asking for the major changes to the production system has played that far in a game. What I do see are the testers telling us it isn't reality.

So I'm waiting for the screenshot or one like it, showing a player with lots of dead end upgrade planes and large pools of newer planes that they wish to upgrade to. I've got a feeling this isn't going to happen.

If you all agree with this, then is this just a matter of "I want to upgrade group C to Franks instead of group A" ? If that's the case then surely you can't want a major overhaul to the system for this. [&:]

[2ndACR]

True, But I have not seen a Beta post a screen shot showing that it will not make a difference either. I do not think even the Betas have taken the game all the way to the end trying both methods.

[DrewMatrix]

If you regard wargames as a safe, inexpensive way to see if you have what it takes to be a general, then the key talent you need is not skill at complaining you don't have everthing imaginable in the way of material, time and personnel, but the skill in crisis management to force the other guy into a bad position using whatever you currently have available in the state of readiness and repair in which you find it.

The lack of forthought to wind up with 100,000 Oscars you built but can't use (and with the benefit of historical hindsight to know Imperial Japan never had enough of anything and had to make hard choices about priorities) says more to me about your generalship than their game design.


Who are you? McClellan or Lee?

[BoerWar]

I personaly don't find the production system to be that hard to understand. I would however like to second the idea of links within the intel screen that would take me to production centers if I don't like what is being built.

With regard to can Japan win the war. I don't think they could do so if you only look at the Pacific theater in isolation. However, if you look at the whole conflict I think maybe they could have had a greater impact. What if Japan had siezed PH or put a serious threat against India/Australia in 1942? What if Russia hadn't been able to move Zhukov and his armies West? Great Britain and the US would have had to take the Japanese more seriously by diverting materials from lend-lease, and African campaigns. Does Rommel win in the desert? Does Russia crumble? If Egypt falls the UK would have had to divert more Pacific units to retake Egypt. And so on. A successful Japan helps Germany, which in turn helps Japan. I don't know if it does or not, but I hope the game takes some of this into account by providing random chances for a more or less successful German ally that might impact the number of allied units available in the Pacific based on Japanese milestones.