Cheaper at EB, how?

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ravinhood
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by ravinhood »

What about the extra time spent with a dialup, you may take 3x-4x the time I would if not more in web browsing, web searchs and the like.

Decreasing time with broadband either gives you more time to waste on internet and see more etc or get things done faster so have more free time for other things... lets say your internet times 2 hrs , broad band same things take you 30-45 min... and then you have extra tim for other things.

Most times I am not browsing the web, I visit a few forums when downloading or play a game in the background. With these new accelorators now within dialup, pages load and refresh much faster than before. 5x faster infact. When I goto my forums within seconds they load, hardly worth the cost of broadband to increase speed to 1sec from 3sec.

As I was stating though it's my costs vs my advantages, obviously you see more advantage over the cost, you see spending an additional $240 a year worth it to you, I do not. Pretty plain and simple.

Back in the real old days of dialup heh 9600 baud 14400 baud etc, yes, web pages took an awful long time to load, but, not anymore. Even dialup is getting new an improved technology that increases the speed of web browsing and with some download accelorators like DAP even the downloads are many times faster than explorer.

You can always bet I'm doing something with my time while a patch or file is downloading, so I'm not losing any entertaiment time and that is what my system is used for. I'll either be on a forum reading/posting or playing a game in the background and play until I hear the downloaded "ding". Not losing anything really, just saving money. ;)
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

I can't help but think, it was only like 80-90 years ago and virtually our entire world was barely in existence.

We made the car and the plane available (more or less in practical terms so don't run off quoting literal invention dates).

Lets see what else has "appeared" since.

Radios and telephones.
Supermarkets and paperbacks.
Television and vcrs.
Space flight and lasers.
Cloning and genetics.
Tanks and aircraft carriers.
Computers and smart bombs.
Bic pens and cell phones.
The internet and digital cameras.
Video games and CGI in movies.
Robotic factory machines and remotely piloted vehicles.

And of course what is impressive, is that list is likely no where near finished.

The one detail that is important, is the appearance of these wonders is escalating. It's not a flat smooth acceleration.

I have read that in 20 years they speculate I can expect to be capable of downloading my concious mind into a machine and become defacto immortal.
Why is it I DON'T find that hard to believe?

When discussing where we will be in 10 years, I think it should be remembered, that 10 years ago no one would have guessed we could do what today is boringly commonplace.

Sure not everyone has the "latest toys", but we all know they are out there.

Digital download yawn, nothing spectacular about it really. Just applying tech that we already had to do something slightly new.

No, revolutionary will be when I can order my game cartridge for my holosuite and it is sent by matter transmitter to my home.

Some things will likely be with us forever, like greed (which is about the only reason to want more than we can actually buy). I have seen a few people acquire for the sake of having, not using. It's likely best described as a disease than a bad form of behaviour.

And true to form, some of us will defiantly refuse to change hehe. Holosuite or no, I will still want to play board games that have hexes on them and resolve through the use of turns.
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Paul Vebber
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Paul Vebber »

I got to find new EB's to shop at.The 3 around me have these titles,and UV,still at the full price

Please don't.

The ones in your area probably have managers that try to "do the right thing" and not violate our pricing instructions.

His comrades probably laugh at him and "accidentally mis-mark" games in an effort to beat him out on sales. Thee is not much difference between the unscrupuulous game stor manager, the e-bay "make his own" pirate and warez.

in all three cases you get a game "cheap" (or free) but we get zippo.

If everybody only bought our games from the "bargain bin", ebay pirates (which I make a distiction from those "honestly" selling a game they paid for) we would go out of business.

I am with you on being a smart shopper, but there can be a progression where smart shopper becomes immoral shopper becomes defacto thief.
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ravinhood
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by ravinhood »

So basically what you are saying Paul is all people should buy software at full retail price and suffer the "no return/no refund" policy that there is no way around and make sure all software developers keep their jobs? Where does the consumer fairness act fit into this equation? ;)
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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old man of the sea
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by old man of the sea »

uhhhhh.....you have a problem with me keeping my job?

Really, none of that has anything to do with developers keeping their jobs.

Developers work on one line of the game biz, they make a product and give it to a publisher with the idea that that publisher will market the game and then pay them from the proceeds. Developers have never been in the big money end. That is why they come and go so quickly. Some developers, like Atomic, have really good runs, while others come and go in a year.

The way you make good money as a developer is building a company and then selling it. The game is not nearly as important as the code base and the IP.

E
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by freeboy »

I see it that simply companies that suck, those that pruduce games that are full of holes and don't care go away as we learn not to buy their crap. The flip side is companies like Matrix build a loyal fanbass and the wastfull old school meathod of retail goes away... after all who would you rather pay, a game designer wit ha new idea, or the clerk, game store mngr, retailer, mall owner, etc etc.

HPS, Matrix, the folks doing the Total war series and Battlefront are all exelent companies with their own marketing they think will work for them. I am hoping prices will drop, after all Campeigns acros the Danube was only 25$, no shipping no gas for the car no tax...
ATD was 15$.. hopefully BIN will be reasonable. I am a bargain hunter too, so do not label me a sell out, just when it costs a company, due too the way contracting is done, that sucks. Igo out of my way to cut costs, on Groceries etc, and will buy like items where I get the best price. Matrix isn't the only place in town to get games, just thier games, and while I am a huge fan, I do not see them ripping us off, now or ever.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Cmdrcain »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


As I was stating though it's my costs vs my advantages, obviously you see more advantage over the cost, you see spending an additional $240 a year worth it to you, I do not. Pretty plain and simple.

Ummm with Dialup I was paying for that plus a 2nd line... Roughly same for each, together roughly same as Broadband alone, now its just Broadband and no 2nd line so I'm not really paying MORE, pretty much same as when Dialup but I have faster D/l speeds and etc.

Have you factored in the cost of any extra phonelines you pay for with Dialup?
Back in the real old days of dialup heh 9600 baud 14400 baud etc, yes, web pages took an awful long time to load, but, not anymore. Even dialup is getting new an improved technology that increases the speed of web browsing and with some download accelorators like DAP even the downloads are many times faster than explorer.

LOL.... you call that Old? Try 300b/1200b/2400b and that was for using $5 or more a HOUR Online services like GEnie and CI$$
You can always bet I'm doing something with my time while a patch or file is downloading, so I'm not losing any entertaiment time and that is what my system is used for. I'll either be on a forum reading/posting or playing a game in the background and play until I hear the downloaded "ding". Not losing anything really, just saving money. ;)


If doing other internet stuff while on a dialup your actually decreasing the speed of the dialup download...
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ravinhood
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by ravinhood »

I didn't enter the internet until 1995, so the 9600 baud and 14400 baud were the norm then. Thus I wasn't involved with paying those extreme once again rediculous prices for online use.

Also I only have (1) phone line, so your analogy doesn't apply to me. It's very simple to apply a routing unit that tells me I have an incoming call while I am on the internet. Total cost of the unit $19.95, not 19.95 a month extra.

So 1 phone 1 dialup connection $30 a month, Cable plus one phone line $50 a month equates to $20 a month savings, right back to that $240 a year savings or added expense, depending on which way one goes (I go with the savings).

You also seem to think everyone is concerned with time while downloading, I am not, if I were I'd have cable or dsl. Makes me no nevermind, there's nothing that important to download from the internet for me. A patch lol like that's some big deal to need it downloaded within minutes or just turn on DAP and goto sleep and walla, download complete when I wake up.

It's a preference thing and a thrift thing for me. I'm saving $240 a year which I can spend on something else that you are not getting for your extra $240 a year. You are saving time (although miniscule to me), while I am aquiring more "goods" for my $$. $240 buys an awful lot, (40) steaks, (6) computer games or more, 120 gallons of gas, 60 gallons of milk, 240 loaves of bread, 120 pounds of bacon, heh, yes $240 buys a lot, much better than watching it dribble away on the internet to me. ;)
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Marc von Martial »

Money can´t buy time [;)]
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Hexed Gamer
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Seeing as we are all putting "things" into "perspective", odds are I would not even be online AT ALL, if not for a particular special person I chat with regularly :)

Steel Panthers = tactical wargame.
HTTR = battle in real time tactical to operational scale wargame.
TOAW = operational wargame (which likely covers every board game I own too).
Strategic Command = grand strategy wargame.

Frankly, I could walk away from the internet and declare I owned a wargame for every sector of wargaming, and I no longer needed to be online.
It's been a very long time since I bought a new board game, simply because I already basically own the best in every category already :)

But as with everything, we like to have MORE. And really, that is about all Matrix Games or Battlefront, or anyone else can hope to sell to, my need to own yet "more".

I would of course need a cd and a few minutes of a buddy's time to occasionally score a needed patch, assuming there was any need at all.

I could always just visit a buddy, and go online to read a forum or two and find out if anything "important" had been accomplished in wargaming (by important, I mean something beyond the usual prattle of forums hehe).

In effect, the internet delivers only what we seek from it, and it can really only give us what we went looking for in the first place.

Some of us measure our time in such increments, that dial up is just to "expensive on our time". I have seen my buddies buy new burners for much the same reasoning. "4 speed is just to slow man, I need to spend 200 bucks so I can burn at 8 speed".
Which is funny when you consider he might not really need that time, and where 200 bucks might have been spent otherwise.

I bought a dvd burner drive myself. About 200 bucks when I got it. I figure though, I have definitely achieved the dollar value out of having dvd capacity.
For one thing, I find it amusing to have a burned copy of Steel Panthers on dvd in the form it would look like on my computer installed. Very handy for examining files in their unmodified state from install (before I go messing around with the install).

By the time I am done processing my massive vhs collection into SVCD mode on my computer, it will have been well worth buying the hardware I employ, even if I never used it for anything else.

Technology is always moving forward though, occasionally it is even a good thing. Usually it just makes life more complicated.
But there is always someone out there that will claim it was a bonus to them.

Technology is not always even available to all. DSL service entered my neighbourhood a good long span of time ahead of cable based service.Eventually those two will realise they need to merge. Because sure enough, someone will do more or less that, and put both out of business if they are not ready.

I am waiting to see technology go completely connection free ie no phone line or cable line at all. Once we can just carry our note pad looking computer around, and gain access to the internet where we are regardless of where that is, then we will have something truely freeing.
And as we speak, that is already starting. You CAN in some places (at least around here) get wireless access within geographical limits without any need of physical linkage.
No phone line no cable line at all.
Bit expensive currently and only really useful to a businessman working out of the office.

I want to play my wargames some day in my MORE comfortable chair without need of this bulky set up.

I have time to wait. I might feel old, but I am only halfway through the average lifespan all the same.
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Paul Vebber
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Paul Vebber »

So basically what you are saying Paul is all people should buy software at full retail price and suffer the "no return/no refund" policy that there is no way around and make sure all software developers keep their jobs? Where does the consumer fairness act fit into this equation? ;)


No, I'm saying that if its fairly obvious that someone is ripping the developer off to make their own buck, that you should not patronize them.

Some people's idea of "customer fairness" is that the customer should get a product with no flaws and infinite support for free. That is the best deal after all for the customer.

There is a serious issue of conflict of expectations regarding computer wargames.

You can't make a game of the scope and depth of War in the Pacific and sell it for 25 bucks. The idea that becasue shareware is sold for 9.99 that that is the price point of all computer wargames just ignires the reality of the effort it takes to make a good game.

"Good games" can be simple and narrow in scope, and not take a lot of resources. Where we can do that we lower the price point. IF it makes sence to sell one game for 25$ then we will. But that doesn't mean its "only fair" that ALL games get sold for 25$.

ALL developers don't deserve to keep their jobs. By many of the definitions of "customer fairness" (like always pay the minimum price you can find a game for - whether its from a retail or ebay pirate or not, will result in NO developers staying employed.

My point is that if you buy one of our games that retails for 40 or 50 bucks from ebay or a bargain bin ofr 9.99$ then you may feel you are better than teh dude who just downloaded it from a warez site, but from our point of view you are not (since you get to enjoy our intellectual property in both cases and we see no money back from you.)

"Fair" works both ways.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by UndercoverNotChickenSalad »

Some ppl never buy anything from anyone, unless the person they're buying from lost money on the deal [8|]
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Error in 0 »

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber
So basically what you are saying Paul is all people should buy software at full retail price and suffer the "no return/no refund" policy that there is no way around and make sure all software developers keep their jobs? Where does the consumer fairness act fit into this equation? ;)


No, I'm saying that if its fairly obvious that someone is ripping the developer off to make their own buck, that you should not patronize them.

Some people's idea of "customer fairness" is that the customer should get a product with no flaws and infinite support for free. That is the best deal after all for the customer.

There is a serious issue of conflict of expectations regarding computer wargames.

You can't make a game of the scope and depth of War in the Pacific and sell it for 25 bucks. The idea that becasue shareware is sold for 9.99 that that is the price point of all computer wargames just ignires the reality of the effort it takes to make a good game.

"Good games" can be simple and narrow in scope, and not take a lot of resources. Where we can do that we lower the price point. IF it makes sence to sell one game for 25$ then we will. But that doesn't mean its "only fair" that ALL games get sold for 25$.

ALL developers don't deserve to keep their jobs. By many of the definitions of "customer fairness" (like always pay the minimum price you can find a game for - whether its from a retail or ebay pirate or not, will result in NO developers staying employed.

My point is that if you buy one of our games that retails for 40 or 50 bucks from ebay or a bargain bin ofr 9.99$ then you may feel you are better than teh dude who just downloaded it from a warez site, but from our point of view you are not (since you get to enjoy our intellectual property in both cases and we see no money back from you.)

"Fair" works both ways.

The bargain bin game is not a warez, so if you do not see a dime of that game, it is you who has done a bad job. To say that I, the bargain bin man, is no better that a thief, is just way out of line. If your sales policy is based around the idea that a customer buy you games to feed you family, then you have probably already lost. To ask a customer who can choose between paying 50$ or 10$ for the same legit item, to pay 50$, is quite frankly naive, and not in touch with the basis for a marked economy.

The only developer who deserves their jobs are those who can make a living out of it (without relying on customers to be 'nice'). It is just a big fat lie that if customers only bought the cheapest game, then no developers would have a job. Inherit in the consept of marked is a self correcting balance.

If I was an developer who just couldn't make money, then I would have a seriouse look at my sales policy. I would not waste time on blaming 'unfair' customers. It is futile.


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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber
No, I'm saying that if its fairly obvious that someone is ripping the developer off to make their own buck, that you should not patronize them.

There are plenty of people who view games makers as struggling artists, I'm not one of them. Buying software from a store is hardly a moral dilemma, if the store marks down the price so be it.
Some people's idea of "customer fairness" is that the customer should get a product with no flaws and infinite support for free. That is the best deal after all for the customer.
Some would say a game which works when it's installed and not several months later would be fair. Having the game match the pre-release statements, install and run are hardly "no flaws and infinite support." It's pretty much the same as expecting a television, or a radio to work now rather than "maybe mostly working sometime."
ALL developers don't deserve to keep their jobs. By many of the definitions of "customer fairness" (like always pay the minimum price you can find a game for - whether its from a retail or ebay pirate or not, will result in NO developers staying employed.
Market forces will dictate that. Perhaps there should be government grants for developers. "Will code for food" signs maybe [;)]
My point is that if you buy one of our games that retails for 40 or 50 bucks from ebay or a bargain bin ofr 9.99$ then you may feel you are better than teh dude who just downloaded it from a warez site, but from our point of view you are not (since you get to enjoy our intellectual property in both cases and we see no money back from you.)
Incredible. The audacity and sense of entitlement that statement betrays is nothing short of amazing. What other industry gets to compare legitimate customers with thieves?
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by old man of the sea »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale


Market forces will dictate that. Perhaps there should be government grants for developers. "Will code for food" signs maybe [;)]

There are just such grants.

They are really great to get.

E
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Just to counterbalance the comments against.

Paul, I don't begrudge you one cent myself personally (not speaking for one other person here just me when I say that).

And if the "correct" price ie the price YOU need is X dollars, then the game is worth X dollars and nothing else counts in determining what YOU feel is right.

If I somehow end up with the game for less than X dollars, I can only hope you didn't get screwed in some way.

If I buy it at an EB though, I am not going to give the clerk the third degree to ensure his price is appropriate. I have noooooo way to know if any one store has done something to undercut you unfairly.

That it might be less than the X dollars listed here online at Matrix Games can be as a result of numerous factors to many to list.
In the end, if you can NOT ensure that retail won't screw you over, then stop employing retail as a venue.

You have illustrated enough (for my needs at least) that in the end, retail might actually be COSTING you money.
More than enough reason to just tell the market, buy it from us or don't get the game.

And no guys, that is not always bad business, it might be, but is not absolutely written in stone.

In the end though, I am not of the opinion, that wargames (any games) are created equal. Plenty of the SC Strategic Command crowd are of the opinion the owner of the game should have sold it for more than he was asking.
The game came out as 25 bucks, and most figure his game was easy as good as the 40 and 50 dollar offerings out there.

The only thing putting on a price of 60 70 or 80 dollars on a product does, is ensure the buyer wants it to a certain level of interest.
If the consumer just won't pay more than 50 bucks for a game, because most of their purchases seem to fall into the dollar range, then they have arbitarily determined that is their limit and nothing else.
It has nothing to do with the worth of the game at all (in my own opinion).

Cars come in all dollar ranges. Bitching about how some cars cost only a bit, will not alter anything at all in the cost to get a Hummer. And it does not matter one iota if the cheap car can do everything you need it to do just fine. Hummers are expensive, and you can just get over it :)

Next month I start saving up for WitP and I don't care if it takes me till mid winter to get my funds in order.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by riverbravo »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Well Pippin broke the poll, he has sided with the game in hand over direct download or direct sales.

Guess that proves that polls are rediculous and only an individuals preferences matters. ;)

I prefer game in hand.

BUT,I did do the DDL from DR with WITP and had no probs.I recieved my disc 6 days later!!As I understand it dsome people had some probs but it was a first time deal so some probs are to beexpected.

Once all the wrinkles are ironed out DDL will be the wave of the future.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Paul Vebber »

Incredible. The audacity and sense of entitlement that statement betrays is nothing short of amazing. What other industry gets to compare legitimate customers with thieves?

In what other industry can retailers essentially say "sue us if you don;t like the fact we rip you off" and oh buy the way, if you try that, you'll never never get another product in out store ever again?

The fact you think the statment is so audacious indicates you are clueless about the depth to which some retailers have sunk to "move boxes off the shelves" (in many cases their sole "success metric"). The fact you were oblivious doesn't change the fact that buying from e-bay pirates or retail "dumpers" doesn't absolve you of moral responsibility for participating in de facto thievery.

What other than "thief" can one label somebody making their own copies of WITP and selling them on ebay for 4.99 Pounds UK? Or a store manager who, knowing that it is a breach of contract to sell a game at less the 30 dollars, wants to make shelf space and marks it $14.99 and blames the fact "its tough to get good help these days"?

If you, now aware of such tactics, take advantage of them then you are just as much a thief as a warez kiddee. Just like teh guy who buys stolen stereo equipment out of some guys trunk in a back alley. "I didn't know it was stolen" wouldn't cut it if a cop catches you. Unfortunaltey its about impossible to stop a bin dumper or e-bay rip off artist, other than to restrict the purchase outlet to online only and add a bunch of "report in" protections that can casue legit customers a lot of headaches.

And as was stated, we have an alternative to putting up with this BS. We just stop selling at retail, unless we think enough units will sell to make it worthwhile in the long run. Unfortunately the e-bay pirates are a bit tougher nut to crack.

I'm simply letting you folks know what is going on out there. If bailing form retail and going mostly on-line only to ensure we get the negotiated price for our goods demonstrates "audacity and sense of entitlement" then I guess you would show "audacity and a sense of entitlement" if you complained to your credit card company because you get charged 3 times the price marked on say a computer, and then cancelled your order because of it?
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Something that just came to mind, and will help Paul's case too.

Anyone here know of the retail bookstore chain Chapters?

Wonderful business, excellent stores, massive selection. They have a Starbucks in each store, they put chairs all over the locations for your comfort.

Sounds nice, till you look under the hood.

Chapters is owned by a person that gleefully goes around crushing small bookstores. Running small operations out of business. A person even the mighty Bill Gates likely gets teary eyed thinking of.

Some businesses do in fact openly operate in an offensive style.
Care not one whit for the small scale operators and essentially demand outrageous concessions or close you out of the loop.

I love going into a Chapters outlet, its the selection.

But in truth, I would rather buy my books online from small scale operations tailor made to my specific needs.
Because in the end, I don't feel "clean" after buying from Chapters.

And THAT is what counts.
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RE: Cheaper at EB, how?

Post by SlapBone »

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

You can't make a game of the scope and depth of War in the Pacific and sell it for 25 bucks. The idea that becasue shareware is sold for 9.99 that that is the price point of all computer wargames just ignires the reality of the effort it takes to make a good game.

I agree with this, and you do, indeed, hold all the cards on this one. I payed the price because I was interested in the content.


My point is that if you buy one of our games that retails for 40 or 50 bucks from ebay or a bargain bin ofr 9.99$ then you may feel you are better than teh dude who just downloaded it from a warez site, but from our point of view you are not (since you get to enjoy our intellectual property in both cases and we see no money back from you.)

"Fair" works both ways.

So, you are transferring responsibilty to the consumer? I have seen this attitude come out in a couple of your posts. Just because your are unable to keep a few dollars from being knocked off your games don't blame it on us. I am a consumer, and whether you like it or not, my dollars are ultimately what you are after (and you have gotten plenty of them lately). But on the same side of the coin, because I am a consumer, I picked up one of your games for $9.99. This is being frugal. It's not being a thief in any sense of the word.

I have four kids and a decent job, and I have always done what was neccessary to care for them. In the last month I spent the following:

Starshatter- $40
WitP- $70
HTTR- $50
KP- $40
ToS- $10
KP Expansion- $15

That's $225 dollars of my disposable income going towards Matrix games with at least $125 going directly into your pocket. If that isn't enough for you to keep your doors open....then close them. Or maybe I should join the masses that enjoy your games for free? [;)]
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