Aircraft upgrades and Japanese hindsight

[Oleg Mastruko]

About time to start new aircraft upgrade thread [:D]

No, seriously, I was "on the fence" about aircraft upgrade issue, but more and more I learn about the game production system, I must say - even though I am sometimes labelled as Axis fanboy which I am not - that the *current* system is more than fair and generous towards the Japanese player. What the "upgrade group" wants and proposes would make the system (further) unfairly skewed towards the Japanese.

Lets see a example what's possible with *current* system. *Knowing* all his Val divebomber groups will eventually upgrade to better Judy bombers, and *knowing* in advance when it will happen, IJN player may stockpile the Aichi engines (needed for Judy production) well in advance! That is unhistorical, albeit welcome, help to the IJN player!

Knowing in advance that he won't need and new Ida super-crappy recon planes, IJN player may scrap their production, and immediatelly start producing some other aircraft... etc. Again, advantages like these were not possible for historic Japan commanders and production ministers.

All of those examples were not realistically available to Japanese in real war. Aircraft engine model is simplified (a welcome simplification to be sure) so that *any* Nakajima engine is "Nakajima engine". Aichi engine is simply an "Aichi engine". You don't need to develop any new engines, you can just stockpile the "Aichi engines".

Be it fair or unfair, but it IS an advantage for IJN player.

Now, I await corrections, flames, attacks from left and right, and I expect that my Axis Fanboy Club member card will be revoked very soon [:D]

Oleg

[tsimmonds]

I agree. I'm not interested in any of the freewheeling stuff. I'd just like my air units not to be stuck on Oscar II if they did get Franks or Tonys IRL.

[Mr.Frag]

Wonder how many "yes" votes should actually be recounted to:

Option 6: I just want to be able to use historical aircraft historically, not change them around to anything.

[:D]

[HawaiiFive-O]

I've been doing a test game as Japan, and I have to agree with Oleg.

The system is quite powerful, and a definite advantage for the Japanese if used properly. As pointed out, a Nakajima is a Nakajima is a Nakajima. Being able to stockpile engines for later use is nice. Being able to start and stop production of a given model on a dime (just-in-time delivery) is huge. Keep ~50 Petes on hand and squirrel away the engines and heavy industry for a rainy (as in the bombs are dropping all over Japan) day.

It doesn't give complete freedom to the Japanese, but if you play within the constraints, rather than railing against them, there is much you can do to improve your industrial position relative to the mess the RL Japanese made of things.

Even the much maligned R+D system works quite well if you don't fight it. I got my A6M3s a month early (OK, maybe that's not a good example [:'(]), and have nudged down one month both the Tojo and Tony by converting the 'super crappy Ida' factories on day 1 to the production of these planes. I might even squeeze out another month's reduction, with a little luck. After I get them on-line, I'll target the Oscar, and try to get it a month or two early.

So there's much you can do as Japan to squeeze out efficiencies and keep yourself in the fight that much longer.

[Lemurs!]

As far as it goes i agree... but did you have a question?
This is pretty obvious stuff.

Although, I disagree on the Judy et al., The Judy was planned in 1939 as the Val replacement and was being evaluated during Pearl Harbor. It was obviously a better plane. Do you think the Japanese didn't notice this?
Same with the Ki-84; They knew it was the best plane they had and planned to replace ALL single engine fighter(army) Sentai's with them. So what is unhistorical about us changing production to a better aircraft?
The Japanese historical 'player' did not but much of that was attempting to keep production lines producing something. If a Japanese player chooses to switch everything to the Ki-84 and the system has been changed to allow full upgrades he will STILL pay a price do to no production/less production for quite some time.
Thats what i can't get about the anti upgrade crowd; its not like Japan is getting any freebies!

Mike

[PJJ]

I agree completely.

Example: Most WitP players probably know that N1K or Ki-84 were excellent fighters. Now, the Japanese didn't know this in December 1941, and therefore didn't put everything they had in R & D of these planetypes. In WitP, you can do just that.

I think there shouldn't be any player controlled research in WitP. If you know what you are doing, you can win the game as Japan - especially against the AI.

[Hartley]

Is there anything you do in this game that *doesn't* profit from hindsight ?

[steveh11Matrix]

As I've said before....there shouldn't *be* any R&D. New types (of ships, aircraft or anything else) should come along when they historically did. That would eliminate a large part of the problems that the 'as the game stands' faction has with 'free deployment': the non-historic - and I agree - force-feeding of the more advanced a/c types into the game, when the Allied player can't respond in kind.

OTOH if the Japanese player *does* force feed like that, he's likely to be in a world of trouble in the game as it stands in any case even if he could deploy the new aircraft due to the resource drain. So I think this 'nightmare scenario' is unlikely to be so nightmarish in reality. If the Germans had built 3 times as many PzIII and PzIV in 1942/3 instead of switching production to the still unready designs of the Tiger and Panther, they might have succeeded in Russia during the 42 campaign, or at least held a much better line in the 42/43 winter campaign. Who knows? That's one of the things that games of this nature are supposed to let us explore. As things are now, a Japanese player appears to be allowed to make that investment but is penalised with a 'double-whammy' - he's commited the resources, but can't deploy what he gets. [:(]

So, I still vote for option 2, with an option switch to keep the current system. Both 'sides' of the argument get what they want with (to my mind) adequate and reasonable restrictions on deployment. On the one hand you still have the current system for those wishing for it, on the other there is adequate scope for a player who invests in production of aircraft to get them into battle where they are needed. Problem? I can't see one, apart from the obvious one of coding by 2by3/Matrix.

I can live with a Yes or a No, although I'd prefer a Yes (obviously), what is frustrating is the....silence

[joliverlay]

PJJ

Now we get to the most important point:

You say:

"Most WitP players probably know that N1K or Ki-84 were excellent fighters. Now, the Japanese didn't know this in December 1941,..."

Your second sentance contains an assertion that may or may not be true. It is entirely possible that the Japanese DID KNOW these planes were better and chose not to produce them.

If the primary reason for their actions was bad choices, or bending to political pressure, but an action was otherwise possible, the player should also have that option.

In another vain, if the real reason that changes will break the system is that aircraft engines should "evolve" than this also should be fixed. The current (not origional) system in BTR has different models of the Deimler Benz Engine. One is much easier to produce than the other. You can change your production in BTR, but only by loosing production while the factory's retool. Those of you who criticize the BTR model may not be aware of the changes made to much more closely reflect real-life production. I find the criticism that BTR players will produce only one model of aircraft unfair....that is simply NOT TRUE. HARD SARGE should also comment on this, he plays both games.

Also....to those who assert otherwise.....the ME-109 was kept in production for other than just political reasons. It was a much better plane at high altitude than the FW-190. The ME-109 was intended to take on the fighters while the FW-190 hit the bombers. Adolf Galland discusses this in his book about his time as the head of German Fighter forces. Also the late war ME-109s may have been as good as or better than Allied planes. The 109K was certinly a VERY GOOD plane. So don't use this as an basis for saying that likewise the Japanese also have to produce muliple army fighter planes. What you have to do is defined by chemistry, physics and engineering. Everything else is possible.

In WitP it would be nice if the Japanese player could make some strategic decisions regarding their production. As I have stated in previous posts there are examples (such as the Judy) were the Japanese knew the existing plane was not as good as its replacement but they CHOOSE to continue to produce it in larger numbers because that was THEIR STRATEGY. Let the Japanese player choose his/her own strategy whereever possible.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

About time to start new aircraft upgrade thread [:D]

No, seriously, I was "on the fence" about aircraft upgrade issue, but more and more I learn about the game production system, I must say - even though I am sometimes labelled as Axis fanboy which I am not - that the *current* system is more than fair and generous towards the Japanese player. What the "upgrade group" wants and proposes would make the system (further) unfairly skewed towards the Japanese.

Lets see a example what's possible with *current* system. *Knowing* all his Val divebomber groups will eventually upgrade to better Judy bombers, and *knowing* in advance when it will happen, IJN player may stockpile the Aichi engines (needed for Judy production) well in advance! That is unhistorical, albeit welcome, help to the IJN player!

Knowing in advance that he won't need and new Ida super-crappy recon planes, IJN player may scrap their production, and immediatelly start producing some other aircraft... etc. Again, advantages like these were not possible for historic Japan commanders and production ministers.

All of those examples were not realistically available to Japanese in real war. Aircraft engine model is simplified (a welcome simplification to be sure) so that *any* Nakajima engine is "Nakajima engine". Aichi engine is simply an "Aichi engine". You don't need to develop any new engines, you can just stockpile the "Aichi engines".

Be it fair or unfair, but it IS an advantage for IJN player.

Now, I await corrections, flames, attacks from left and right, and I expect that my Axis Fanboy Club member card will be revoked very soon [:D]

Oleg

What makes you so sure about this angle you've taken on? Obviously, all these planes are in r&d, which to me means they know they're being worked on. The ME262 was in development long before it arrived, so should it be so different here (Found this on the internet:

Although often viewed as a last ditch superweapon, the Me 262 was already being developed as project P.1065 before the start of WWII. Plans were first drawn up in April 1939, and the original design was very similar to the plane that would eventually enter service

)? Any country could've put more into research of new types and less into upgrading old types if they wanted. Every country had the option once something was being drawn up, to put extra support behind it or not. If today I were developing some F32 or something, it more or less exists once the idea begins. If the government or anyone else would throw more manpower or money into it, it would develope quicker. As poor as most of the JA planes are anyway, I'm not so sure the really better ones will possibly arrive before the supposed mark of everyone's concern in this game, the JA early victory possibility.

The only thing somewhat bogus here is that the player already knows how well those designs will do, but that can't be helped.

This game allows some hypothetical things to be done, and I really tire of the sound I hear quite a bit of people basically asking to run a documentary for a game. A documentary as a game is one in which you do nothing but watch the war unfold. Fine for learning about WWII, awful for gaming. Wargaming, in case some of us forgot, is supposed, or at least I've heard this notion, to be about what would happen if the user controlled any/some of the forces. Lack of control answers nothing and it's some thing I definitely wouldn't "play".

Another issue: Since the r&d for all those Japan planes naturally must have varied some, how do you reconcile that to the fact that not touching the r&d makes it just as inhistorical? If the A6M5 starts off with 20 r&d, but in 6/42 Japan threw the equivalent of 20 more points into it, how can you be historical if you can't do it? If she dropped it 10 points in 6/42, how can you do that (especially since the original 20 points is probably just one location)?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

As far as it goes i agree... but did you have a question?
This is pretty obvious stuff.

Although, I disagree on the Judy et al., The Judy was planned in 1939 as the Val replacement and was being evaluated during Pearl Harbor. It was obviously a better plane. Do you think the Japanese didn't notice this?
Same with the Ki-84; They knew it was the best plane they had and planned to replace ALL single engine fighter(army) Sentai's with them. So what is unhistorical about us changing production to a better aircraft?

So why didn't they do it in the real life? Since they planned to do it since 39? Answer is obvious: because it wasn't so easy!

There is a huge, HUGE difference between "planning a Val replacement" or "knowing advantages of Ki-84 over Oscar" and *having* the possibility to actually mass produce and stockpile engines for aircraft that is going to be produced months if not years into the future.

I'm sure we all know (roughly) how new aircraft models are introduced in real armies/navies. First some Navy guy says "we need better dive bomber". Then some companies offer their ideas, etc etc, to cut the story short then some YEARS later we have flying prototypes, then they crash, killing test pilots and revealing problems that were unthinked of during the planning etc etc ETC. ETC. then XY years from the original "plan" aircraft is finally delivered into production, and IF everything goes OK you could start equipping your squadrons with it some MONTHS later. All this does not cover training the pilots for the new aircraft, having all the strategic materials handy (chrome, vanadium, various stuff I don't know the english words for [:D]), having your factories intact, etc.

In WITP IJN players have it SO easy, they know their sqaudrons will switch to plane Y on such and such date, and they may PLAN their production well in ADVANCE accordingly, stockpiling engines, scrapping the models they KNOW will be obsolete (in real life you didn't have a gipsy woman to look into crystal ball and tell you "aircraft model Z will be considered obsolete X months from now so you can scrap its production NOW").

To make this short: all these are fantastic advantages for IJN player, and to ask for MORE advantages, like unhistorical squadron updates, will be really unfair IMO. I've been reading some posts on the war board and Spooky's site and the amount of tweaking that is possible with current poduction model is amazing! Some tricks described are almost gamey, yet perfectly "legal" with the existing system.

Oleg

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Hartley

Is there anything you do in this game that *doesn't* profit from hindsight ?

YES. You play it on a map that profits from pure fantasy!

[fbastos]

I don't get you guys... if someone wants to cheat the game system, what's the problem with that? Would you forbid tweaking production just because someone is going to whack the crap out of the AI?

I say: keep that as a toggle. If the player wants to do that, let him. If you dont like, simply don't do.

As for myself (I always play as ally), I forbid myself to take decisions based on future knowledge. So I always run the Prince of Wales and Repulse to Khota Bharu, even if they usually get sunk, as to run them away would be a violation of the Royal Navy.

I say the rules should let the players do whatever they find fun doing, however dumb that sounds to you (sinking the Prince of Wales in my case), and give you the option of not doing that or toggling off if you don't want to.

Regards,
F.

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
There is a huge, HUGE difference between "planning a Val replacement" or "knowing advantages of Ki-84 over Oscar" and *having* the possibility to actually mass produce and stockpile engines for aircraft that is going to be produced months if not years into the future.

I agree that this can lead to abuse, but in most cases plants are ramped up before the start of production.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
I'm sure we all know (roughly) how new aircraft models are introduced in real armies/navies. First some Navy guy says "we need better dive bomber". Then some companies offer their ideas…

In most cases the military actually specifies spec. for the aircraft, and then the designers work to achieve that goal. The military plans/hopes that when the aircraft is massed produced it will work correctly.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
In WITP IJN players have it SO easy, they know their sqaudrons will switch to plane Y on such and such date, and they may PLAN their production well in ADVANCE accordingly, stockpiling engines, scrapping the models they KNOW will be obsolete (in real life you didn't have a gipsy woman to look into crystal ball and tell you "aircraft model Z will be considered obsolete X months from now so you can scrap its production NOW").

I agree that the development phase of an aircraft can be long and arduous. The military can’t be sure when the aircraft will actually be ready, yet in the game the Allied player knows P-51s will arrive on a set date.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
To make this short: all these are fantastic advantages for IJN player, and to ask for MORE advantages, like unhistorical squadron updates, will be really unfair IMO.

I have yet to play out to 1944/45, but if Ki-84s with the inferior pilots available to the Japanese can turn the tide against the waves of P-38s, P-47, and P-51s I will be surprised… and a little disappointed.

PS. I don’t care for the research function as modeled in the game, and I feel the ability of the Japanese player to alter production should be limited. Yet he should have some ability.

[bradfordkay]

As for myself (I always play as ally), I forbid myself to take decisions based on future knowledge. So I always run the Prince of Wales and Repulse to Khota Bharu, even if they usually get sunk, as to run them away would be a violation of the Royal Navy.

I say the rules should let the players do whatever they find fun doing, however dumb that sounds to you (sinking the Prince of Wales in my case), and give you the option of not doing that or toggling off if you don't want to.

Not to hijack the thread, but there was a discussion at No 10 Downing St about whether Force Z should retire after being sighted by Japanese search planes and without having reached the invasion fleet. IIRC, the PM decided to sleep on the thought. Ooops!

[brisd]

ORIGINAL: PJJ

I agree completely.

Example: Most WitP players probably know that N1K or Ki-84 were excellent fighters. Now, the Japanese didn't know this in December 1941, and therefore didn't put everything they had in R & D of these planetypes. In WitP, you can do just that.

I think there shouldn't be any player controlled research in WitP. If you know what you are doing, you can win the game as Japan - especially against the AI.

The AI is not a challenge to me or most seasoned players. I expect a human (either side) to handle to AI even in the hardest setting, it is simply unable to respond to strategic moves long term.

As far as the issue of players having hindsight, I agree with Lemurs. Both sides spent time reseaching aircraft and trying them out in the field and the combat results of 1943 spoke for themselves. So why didn't more advanced Japanese aircraft make it to the frontlines to face the advanced Allied aircraft? Much of it was production issues, skilled labor, strategic materials, etc. Japan put in a superhuman effort to increase air production in late 43/early 44 to have numbers to fight America and when those units were destroyed in the battles of Marianas and Philippines, the aircraft industry was exhausted and the B-29's finished the job. That is why 2by3 put in limitations on how soon you can get them and why I think they put limits on how many sentai can be equipped with the Ki-84. From all my reading the Ki-84 WAS the aircraft planned to replace ALL army fighters except for the interceptors (Ki-61/100). So I am 60/40 on the issue, to want change to present system. I don't want the system to collapse from free-reign research/upgrades. Lemurs does have a point about the Japanese player does pay for investing heavily in research/upgrades. He will lose that production while new aircraft are coming online and that is also one reason it didn't happen historically, Japan needed NUMBERS in the field.

[bradfordkay]

HawaiiFive-O's post indicates that there is no retooling period. Since I haven't tried messing with the Japanese yet (I don't like to increase my knowledge of the Japanese setup until I've gotten quite tired of playing as Allied - did the same in UV), I wondered about that. Is there a retooling period or not? Do you lose production if you switch factories from one fully researched aircraft to another fully researched aircraft?

[Buck Beach]

I wonder just how difficult of a program job this "just add a toggle" concept would be for Matrix/2by3 to do. I also wonder how it would effect the mechanics of the rest of the game. An upgrade provision for the aircraft might muck up the entire game or be so time/cost consuming it wouldn't make economical scense for them to do it. Surely if it was otherwise even moderately reasonable they would make the change. Any comments from Matrix/2by3 as to this end.

[fbastos]

I wonder just how difficult of a program job this "just add a toggle" concept would be for Matrix/2by3 to do.

They just added a toggle for Allied submarine doctrine... might be easy to add another to disable changing Japanese research & production.

[fbastos]

I expect a human (either side) to handle to AI even in the hardest setting,

Ohh... really?

Time to restart then... I've been playing at HARD rather than VERY HARD.

Hmm.. better start another thread asking if everybody plays on VERY HARD.

Regards,
F.