Cheaper at EB, how?

[Sarge]

Well I have to agree with Matrix on this. Selling their games at a loss to the developers and publishers will only be detrimental in the long run to wargamming industry. I would take my games off the shelves of the retailer also if I had to put up with some 19 year old store manager deciding if I should make a profit or not . To further my point take a look at the photo below . Both were made in 1984. Both will get you to work . Both look the same so should the cost the same , NO one cost $ 5,000 and the other cost $60,000+. Under the hood of one is a 308 Ferrari the other is a Fierro [X(]. But if any of you bargain hunters are in the market for a 308 Ferrari I got one for $ 10,000. [:D]

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber
In what other industry can retailers essentially say "sue us if you don;t like the fact we rip you off" and oh buy the way, if you try that, you'll never never get another product in out store ever again?

Then find another outlet, do not blame the consumer.

The fact you think the statment is so audacious indicates you are clueless about the depth to which some retailers have sunk to "move boxes off the shelves" (in many cases their sole "success metric").

You're right, I'm as clueless to your "plight" as you are to mine. And you know what, I probably care less. I am the person who buys your games, that makes me the customer. In every other facet of commercial life, that gives me the leverage and should lead to you seeking more of my money, not insulting me.

The fact you were oblivious doesn't change the fact that buying from e-bay pirates or retail "dumpers" doesn't absolve you of moral responsibility for participating in de facto thievery.

de facto thievery?

You have a bloody nerve. Buying games retail is not thievery in any form. If you can't get that through your dense sense of entitlement then you are not only insulting, but heading the way of the dodo.

What other than "thief" can one label somebody making their own copies of WITP and selling them on ebay for 4.99 Pounds UK? Or a store manager who, knowing that it is a breach of contract to sell a game at less the 30 dollars, wants to make shelf space and marks it $14.99 and blames the fact "its tough to get good help these days"?

Some advice: Find a dictionary and look up "theft" "theif" and "steal" Come back to me when you find one which includes retail sales to genuine customers.

If you, now aware of such tactics, take advantage of them then you are just as much a thief as a warez kiddee.

You live in a strange insular world. No wonder the industry is so desperate when people like you are actively participating in it. I suggest you either vote for the communist party in the upcoming election, or move to a communist nation which might suit your repugnance for capitalism and the free market.

Just like teh guy who buys stolen stereo equipment out of some guys trunk in a back alley.

Well when it becomes an offence to purchase software you'll have a point. Until then, this is left insulting and is now well on the road to insane. Do you know what you are saying? You are calling legitimate purchasers thieves. I suggest you devote some time to improving productivity, or marketing. That way you might be able to sell enough units to keep your games out of the bargain bin.

And as was stated, we have an alternative to putting up with this BS. We just stop selling at retail, unless we think enough units will sell to make it worthwhile in the long run. Unfortunately the e-bay pirates are a bit tougher nut to crack.

Yes, and I also have an alternative: not buying if I don't think the product is worth it. For EIA and BiN I probably will, for the others, I'll most probably wait, especially until the games are finished. Most vendors don't sell items until they are finished, but in the upside down world of gaming, that's too much to expect.

I develop software and abhor piracy, but if I ran my business with your attitude, I'd be on the streets. Maybe that would entitle me to call you a thief for not giving me unnecessary cash at that point? [8|]

[SlapBone]

Attention David Heath:

Does this guy (Paul) really speak for Matrix Games? I'm amazed if this is the truth.

Maybe a leash would be expedient?

"Pulling out of Retail because Retail wasn't cutting it" is a viable business decision.

"Pulling out of Retail because consumers are thieves" is not quite as ...how should I put this..."Consumer-centric".

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber
In what other industry can retailers essentially say "sue us if you don;t like the fact we rip you off" and oh buy the way, if you try that, you'll never never get another product in out store ever again?

Then find another outlet, do not blame the consumer.

The fact you think the statment is so audacious indicates you are clueless about the depth to which some retailers have sunk to "move boxes off the shelves" (in many cases their sole "success metric").

You're right, I'm as clueless to your "plight" as you are to mine. And you know what, I probably care less. I am the person who buys your games, that makes me the customer. In every other facet of commercial life, that gives me the leverage and should lead to you seeking more of my money, not insulting me.

The fact you were oblivious doesn't change the fact that buying from e-bay pirates or retail "dumpers" doesn't absolve you of moral responsibility for participating in de facto thievery.

de facto thievery?

You have a bloody nerve. Buying games retail is not thievery in any form. If you can't get that through your dense sense of entitlement then you are not only insulting, but heading the way of the dodo.

What other than "thief" can one label somebody making their own copies of WITP and selling them on ebay for 4.99 Pounds UK? Or a store manager who, knowing that it is a breach of contract to sell a game at less the 30 dollars, wants to make shelf space and marks it $14.99 and blames the fact "its tough to get good help these days"?

Some advice: Find a dictionary and look up "theft" "theif" and "steal" Come back to me when you find one which includes retail sales to genuine customers.

If you, now aware of such tactics, take advantage of them then you are just as much a thief as a warez kiddee.

You live in a strange insular world. No wonder the industry is so desperate when people like you are actively participating in it. I suggest you either vote for the communist party in the upcoming election, or move to a communist nation which might suit your repugnance for capitalism and the free market.

Just like teh guy who buys stolen stereo equipment out of some guys trunk in a back alley.

Well when it becomes an offence to purchase software you'll have a point. Until then, this is left insulting and is now well on the road to insane. Do you know what you are saying? You are calling legitimate purchasers thieves. I suggest you devote some time to improving productivity, or marketing. That way you might be able to sell enough units to keep your games out of the bargain bin.

And as was stated, we have an alternative to putting up with this BS. We just stop selling at retail, unless we think enough units will sell to make it worthwhile in the long run. Unfortunately the e-bay pirates are a bit tougher nut to crack.

Yes, and I also have an alternative: not buying if I don't think the product is worth it. For EIA and BiN I probably will, for the others, I'll most probably wait, especially until the games are finished. Most vendors don't sell items until they are finished, but in the upside down world of gaming, that's too much to expect.

I develop software and abhor piracy, but if I ran my business with your attitude, I'd be on the streets. Maybe that would entitle me to call you a thief for not giving me unnecessary cash at that point? [8|]

Come on your deleting half the guys post and taking it TOTALY out of context. Looks like someone stepped right into Les spot

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Come on your deleting half the guys post and taking it TOTALY out of context. Looks like someone stepped right into Les spot

Excuse me? Did you bother to read his post?

Let me help you out with three uncut paragraphs.

The fact you think the statment is so audacious indicates you are clueless about the depth to which some retailers have sunk to "move boxes off the shelves" (in many cases their sole "success metric"). The fact you were oblivious doesn't change the fact that buying from e-bay pirates or retail "dumpers" doesn't absolve you of moral responsibility for participating in de facto thievery.

What other than "thief" can one label somebody making their own copies of WITP and selling them on ebay for 4.99 Pounds UK? Or a store manager who, knowing that it is a breach of contract to sell a game at less the 30 dollars, wants to make shelf space and marks it $14.99 and blames the fact "its tough to get good help these days"?

If you, now aware of such tactics, take advantage of them then you are just as much a thief as a warez kiddee. Just like teh guy who buys stolen stereo equipment out of some guys trunk in a back alley. "I didn't know it was stolen" wouldn't cut it if a cop catches you. Unfortunaltey its about impossible to stop a bin dumper or e-bay rip off artist, other than to restrict the purchase outlet to online only and add a bunch of "report in" protections that can casue legit customers a lot of headaches.

Now tell me how I managed to take this out of context again?

Must be some missing link between avatars with sarge in their name [8|]

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Incredible. The audacity and sense of entitlement that statement betrays is nothing short of amazing. What other industry gets to compare legitimate customers with thieves?

In what other industry can retailers essentially say "sue us if you don;t like the fact we rip you off" and oh buy the way, if you try that, you'll never never get another product in out store ever again?

The fact you think the statment is so audacious indicates you are clueless about the depth to which some retailers have sunk to "move boxes off the shelves" (in many cases their sole "success metric"). The fact you were oblivious doesn't change the fact that buying from e-bay pirates or retail "dumpers" doesn't absolve you of moral responsibility for participating in de facto thievery.

What other than "thief" can one label somebody making their own copies of WITP and selling them on ebay for 4.99 Pounds UK? Or a store manager who, knowing that it is a breach of contract to sell a game at less the 30 dollars, wants to make shelf space and marks it $14.99 and blames the fact "its tough to get good help these days"?

If you, now aware of such tactics, take advantage of them then you are just as much a thief as a warez kiddee. Just like teh guy who buys stolen stereo equipment out of some guys trunk in a back alley. "I didn't know it was stolen" wouldn't cut it if a cop catches you. Unfortunaltey its about impossible to stop a bin dumper or e-bay rip off artist, other than to restrict the purchase outlet to online only and add a bunch of "report in" protections that can casue legit customers a lot of headaches.

And as was stated, we have an alternative to putting up with this BS. We just stop selling at retail, unless we think enough units will sell to make it worthwhile in the long run. Unfortunately the e-bay pirates are a bit tougher nut to crack.

I'm simply letting you folks know what is going on out there. If bailing form retail and going mostly on-line only to ensure we get the negotiated price for our goods demonstrates "audacity and sense of entitlement" then I guess you would show "audacity and a sense of entitlement" if you complained to your credit card company because you get charged 3 times the price marked on say a computer, and then cancelled your order because of it?

No dinsdale this is the "uncut" reply. And it was in response to AS YOU KNOW to your earlier reply to the thread. Yes your excused

[Goblin]

Sorry, I don't equate bargain shopping at a software store with being a thief. Anyone who doesn't bargain shop has too much money. Now I am a thief if I buy a game on sale, because I should go elsewhere and pay full price?!? What about my family? Sorry, I support Matrix, but I will buy games on sale only. I always wait until a game is marked down before buying it, but am no thief.


Goblin

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: SargeNo dinsdale this is the "uncut" reply. And it was in response to AS YOU KNOW to your earlier reply to the thread. Yes your excused

Sorry I have no idea what you mean in that post, if you meant anything at all. You accused me of snipping quotes out of context, I refute that and ask you to point out where.

Do you have any intention of pointing out why you thought those were out of context, or are you simply trolling?

[Sarge]

Yes I do have a point, you are taken replys out of context just to point out that Paul is calling Matrix customers thiefs. I am not going to speak for Paul or Martix but I will call it as I see it. Someone for the first time browsing this forum is going to see your comments and get a bad tast for the forums and maybe Matrix for that matter. In no way do I see were Paul is calling anyone here a thief, but i guess if I side with Matrix my point of view is brushed aside. But your point of view that is making some pretty big accusations should not be challenged. Is this not the reason OT forums were removed. You can reply how I still have no point or what ever I am sure this one will be locked down soon as it will turn into a one sided argument and anyone opposing that point of view will be flamed right out of the thread as we are seeing time and time agian. Uncle you win [&o]

[Hexed Gamer]

Paul is guilty of calling a spade a spade and nothing more.

If you say you are a supporter then you get to prove it.

If you are merely a customer that cares about nothing but their own bottom line, then you have to accept that.

It's not a crime to take advantage of a situation if it is legal.
But it doesn't allow a person to play both sides of the equation in all things.

A person can't play the "I am a loyal Matrix Games supporter" card, and then go and say, "but I have no trouble getting the lowest price option regardless of the costs", and still retain the option of being a "loyal supporter".
That's two faced actually.

Sure Matrix Games is going to likely sell to a wide mix of people.
Some will buy one game, never visit the forums never spend another cent on a Matrix Games product, because they really only wanted that one game.

I have seen people buy goods in a seeming frenzy ONLY to support the Matrix Games business.
I don't have any coffee mugs or T-shirts myself though.
But I have given freely of my time on a couple of Matrix Games products as unpaid support. I was glad to do it.

Some are only here to talk shop and really that is all they are here for. Not the end of the world though.

I have enjoyed the Matrix Games products I have bought.
Most have been bought as I found them. I got HTTR at an EB for what seemed a reduced rate. I might have bought it direct, but it was right there, and it seemed dumb to look a gift horse in the mouth. I feel no guilt in buying it that day and saving the cash I did.
If EB is screwing up the prices, it becomes another reason to discontinue indulging the retail scene.

I recently got Uncommon Valour in a game trade. My friend says my offerings were worth more, I think his were

But to illustrate a case supportive of Paul's position, I have witnessed Hong Kong imports, as a friend bought one once.
It was an anime series release. It was a mere fraction of the cost that was expected.
Seemed to good to be true. It turns out it was to good to be true.
The Hong Kong import was almost 100% certainly an asian pirated copy. The thing was indistinguishable from the actual genuine article. The thing is, the copy didn't even care to hide it was a clever copy.
For a person to buy that item unknowingly is not a foul.
To knowingly go back to that retailer and buy several more Hong Kong imports though, that is directly supportive of the pirate way of doing business.
Economic policy with regards to one's family is not an out in this matter.

And if you don't like Paul (or me saying that) get over it, the truth often does indeed taste bad on the tongue though.

I am poor as the definition goes, which translates to tough luck.
It doesn't make buying what is to anyone with two functioning brain cells, a clear support of what is actually an illegal product.
No justification will alter the fact the copy is a forgery.

Saying it is wise to always seek the lowest price is not always a magical fix. It can't be applied in all cases, as in some cases you are encouraging illegal activities.

Bargain bins can be the same as fraudulent pricing if it is conciously done to the intentional detriment of a prior aggreement.
But joe consumer can't be always held accountable for taking advantage of a seemingly good price.
Stores do indeed occasionally reduce to move in a way that is not unduly in breech of a good faith arrangement.
They don't always do it with clear intent to undermine the source.
The consumer would have to sit back and study the store's operation over a long period of time to find out if the store was noble or not.
But who is going to actually do that.

It all comes down to, did you knowingly buy something you genuinely knew was priced suspiciously?
Were you not concerned. Did you not care.

This is all a learning process for Matrix Games. They have not been around for years and years and years.
It seems like only yesterday their games hit the shelves.
Now their games are being reconsidered as being best served sold online as digital download.
It might be they should have gone that route initially.
How would they have known.

Battlefront sells online only till they are good and ready to do retail shelf.
Maybe that is the course Matrix games should pursue. Sell a product 1-2 years via them only, and then use retail shelf to move the last portions of stock out the door.
Poetic actually, let the retailer get stuck with product that has slowed down and won't move as fast as it did on day one.

[SlapBone]

Ok I'm tired of being called a thief. Matrix if you want me to prove I'm not a thief put out WaW and BiN. Go ahead and do it RIGHT NOW, and I'll prove it.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Yes I do have a point, you are taken replys out of context just to point out that Paul is calling Matrix customers thiefs.

You know that's the third time you've said this and you've yet to even attempt to explain it.

I am not going to speak for Paul or Martix but I will call it as I see it. Someone for the first time browsing this forum is going to see your comments and get a bad tast for the forums and maybe Matrix for that matter.

I was compared to a thief because I don't think bargain bin games are evil. People browsing the forum will see this board's administrator calling customers thieves.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
Paul is guilty of calling a spade a spade and nothing more.

He equates legitimate retail purchase to pirating software. That's a funny looking spade.

If you say you are a supporter then you get to prove it.

If you are merely a customer that cares about nothing but their own bottom line, then you have to accept that.

Yea, I'm one of the people paying Matrix for their software. I didn't sign up to be insulted after paying full price for KP, HTTR, and Eric Young's abomination.

I am most certainly not a supporter, I'm a customer, never disputed that. However, as I don't agree that I should pay the maximum price available for a game that makes me the same as a pirate in the eyes of that particular Matrix representative.

To knowingly go back to that retailer and buy several more Hong Kong imports though, that is directly supportive of the pirate way of doing business.

Where in this thread has anyone argued that buying pirated versions of a game is acceptable? This thread is downright surreal.

Bargain bins can be the same as fraudulent pricing if it is conciously done to the intentional detriment of a prior aggreement.
But joe consumer can't be always held accountable for taking advantage of a seemingly good price.
Stores do indeed occasionally reduce to move in a way that is not unduly in breech of a good faith arrangement.
They don't always do it with clear intent to undermine the source.
The consumer would have to sit back and study the store's operation over a long period of time to find out if the store was noble or not.
But who is going to actually do that.

I agree there, I mean I can just imagine the scene approaching the 16 year old behind the counter and enquiring whether the store was not breaching any contract to sell this software [:)]

It all comes down to, did you knowingly buy something you genuinely knew was priced suspiciously?
Were you not concerned. Did you not care.

I have bought a second version of KP cheaply, to go with 5 full price Matrix products, and I bought it from a store, a legitimate copy. That's as far as my responsibility extends. I've bought Championship Manager off Ebay as it's not published in the US and impossible to get here.

However, my days of buying new software ended this year. I'll make an exception for Empires in Arms and Battles In Normandy provided they look to be solid and stable, but I'm tired of buying unfinished games at full price. I'd rather wait until software is finished and if that means it's cheap then so be it. If publishers had not consistently released unfinished games the last few years I probably wouldn't have this frame of mind. My apathy to the plight of developers has been brought on by the developers and publishers who decided to release HOI, or Pax Romana, or MOO3, or EYSA without caring that they were unplayable.

[David Heath]

Hi Everyone

This is like a fender bender that everyone got to stop and watch.... I am locking this thread.

David