Observations on Ship Repairs

[fbastos]

Folks,

Summary of the results:

Port size=1 = 10 repairs
Port size=10 = 22 repairs (repaired the CV)

Port size=1 + Naval HQ -> 5 repairs (repaired the CV, twice)
Port size=10 + Naval HQ -> 17 repairs (repaired the CV)

Port size=1 + AR Ship -> 12 repairs
Port size=10 + AR Ship -> 22 repairs

Port size=1 + 4xAR Ships -> 10 repairs
Port size=5 + 4xAR Ships -> 13 repair
Port size=10 + AR Ship + Naval HQ -> 15 repairs

Conclusions:

(a) Is the freaking Naval HQ broken? It seems to hinder repairs, rather than helping!!!
(b) Perhaps the Naval HQ helps on repairing big ships? Doesn't seem to help with destroyers, though
(c) AR Ships seem to have -very small- effects; perhaps I'm using them wrong? I leave them docked on the port
(d) A port = 10 without shipyards repairs DDs only about twice as fast as a port = 1
(e) CVs repair much much slower than DDs.. (duh)

Regards,
F.


Test set: one CV and 5 DDs, each with 50% SYS damage (no fires and no flooding). Base has 100,000 supplies and has the command HQ on it. The naval HQ is attached to the same command. Listing gives the day by day status on % damage; the first number is the CV.

PORT SIZE=1
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 49 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 (2 repairs)
8/11: 50 / 49 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 49 (2 repairs)
8/12: 50 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 48 (2 repairs)
8/13: 50 / 49 / 50 / 47 / 49 / 48 (2 repairs)
8/14: 50 / 49 / 50 / 47 / 49 / 48
8/15: 50 / 49 / 50 / 47 / 49 / 48
8/16: 50 / 49 / 50 / 47 / 49 / 47 (1 repairs)
8/17: 50 / 49 / 50 / 47 / 48 / 47 (1 repairs)
TOTAL: 10 repairs

PORT SIZE=1 + NAVAL HQ
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 (1 repair)
8/11: 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 / 49 (1 repair)
8/12: 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 / 49
8/13: 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 / 48 (1 repair)
8/14: 49 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 / 48 (1 repair)
8/15: 49 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 / 48
8/16: 49 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 50 / 48 (1 repair)
8/17: 48 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 50 / 47 (2 repairs)
TOTAL = 5 repairs

PORT SIZE=1 + AR SHIP
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 (1 repair)
8/11: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 49 (1 repair)
8/12: 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 48 (2 repairs)
8/13: 50 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 48 (1 repair)
8/14: 50 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 48
8/15: 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 48 (2 repairs)
8/16: 50 / 49 / 49 / 47 / 48 / 47 (3 repairs)
8/17: 50 / 49 / 48 / 46 / 48 / 47 (2 repairs)
TOTAL = 12 repairs

PORT SIZE=1 + 4xAR SHIPS
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 (1 repair)
8/11: 50 / 49 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 49 (2 repairs)
8/12: 50 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 48 (2 repairs)
8/13: 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 48 (1 repair)
8/14: 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 48 (1 repair)
8/15: 50 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 48 / 48 (1 repair)
8/16: 50 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 48 / 47 (1 repair)
8/17: 50 / 49 / 49 / 47 / 48 / 47 (1 repair)
TOTAL = 10 repairs

PORT SIZE=5 + 4xAR SHIPS
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 (1 repair)
8/11: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 48 (2 repairs)
8/12: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 47 (1 repair)
8/13: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 48 / 47 (1 repair)
8/14: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 48 / 47
8/15: 50 / 49 / 49 / 50 / 48 / 45 (4 repairs)
8/16: 50 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 48 / 45 (2 repairs)
8/17: 50 / 49 / 49 / 47 / 47 / 45 (2 repairs)
TOTAL = 13 repairs

PORT SIZE=10
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 (1 repair)
8/11: 49 / 49 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 (3 repairs)
8/12: 49 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 (2 repairs)
8/13: 49 / 49 / 50 / 48 / 48 / 48 (3 repairs)
8/14: 49 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 47 / 48 (2 repairs)
8/15: 49 / 49 / 47 / 47 / 47 / 48 (3 repairs)
8/16: 49 / 48 / 47 / 47 / 46 / 46 (4 repairs)
8/17: 49 / 47 / 47 / 46 / 45 / 45 (4 repairs)
TOTAL = 22 repairs

PORT SIZE=10 + NAVAL HQ
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 (1 repair)
8/11: 50 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 (3 repairs)
8/12: 49 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 (1 repair)
8/13: 49 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 47 / 48 (3 repairs)
8/14: 49 / 49 / 50 / 48 / 47 / 48 (1 repair)
8/15: 49 / 49 / 47 / 48 / 46 / 47 (5 repairs)
8/16: 49 / 49 / 46 / 48 / 45 / 47 (2 repairs)
8/17: 49 / 49 / 46 / 48 / 45 / 46 (1 repair)
TOTAL = 17 repairs

PORT SIZE=10 + AR SHIP
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 49 / 50 / 50 / 50 (1 repair)
8/11: 50 / 50 / 49 / 47 / 50 / 49 (4 repairs)
8/12: 50 / 49 / 48 / 47 / 48 / 48 (4 repairs)
8/13: 50 / 47 / 48 / 46 / 48 / 46 (5 repairs)
8/14: 50 / 47 / 48 / 45 / 47 / 45 (3 repairs)
8/15: 50 / 47 / 48 / 45 / 47 / 44 (1 repair)
8/16: 50 / 46 / 48 / 44 / 47 / 43 (3 repairs)
8/17: 50 / 46 / 48 / 43 / 47 / 43 (1 repair)
TOTAL = 22 repairs

PORT SIZE=10 + AR SHIP + NAVAL HQ
8/9: 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50 / 50
8/10: 50 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 50 / 50 (2 repairs)
8/11: 50 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 48 (3 repairs)
8/12: 50 / 50 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 48 (1 repair)
8/13: 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 46 / 48 (3 repairs)
8/14: 50 / 49 / 49 / 49 / 46 / 47 (1 repair)
8/15: 50 / 49 / 49 / 48 / 46 / 46 (2 repairs)
8/16: 50 / 49 / 49 / 47 / 46 / 46 (1 repair)
8/17: 50 / 49 / 49 / 46 / 46 / 45 (2 repairs)
TOTAL = 15 repairs

[Duderonomy]

Very interesting test.

FYI, page 187 of the manual states:

"Ships in a hex with an AR ship and a base will repair faster."

So it appears that it doesn't have to be in the port itself. Perhaps this is an error in the manual?

[pad152]

Playing the allies, it seems ships repair slower in Pearl (HQ + 2 AR's) then the west coast(no AR's).

[Twotribes]

What happened to your other AR? Pearl starts with 3.

[fbastos]

Bumped.

Tried several tests with ARs (no ARs, in TF, docked, ports of different sizes, damaged ships docked, in TFs, etc..). Whatever influence they have, it doesn't seem to be bigger than random fluctuations.

Not sure yet how to use them ARs.

F.

[Lemurs!]

Bump as i hope this doesn't get lost

[Oznoyng]

It seems as though every game I play requires me at some point to explain random number generators. Suffice to say, your example doesn't have enough data in it to be a valid test of the effects. Run about 100 days on 10 different test games, then come back with the results. Until then, the vagaries of the dice could easily explain this situation and even worse ones.

[Captain Cruft]

The other thing to say is why do you have to understand every single formula down to the Nth decimal place prior to playing the game? Seems like less fun to me ...

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

The other thing to say is why do you have to understand every single formula down to the Nth decimal place prior to playing the game? Seems like less fun to me ...

Agreed, but .......

If all the guys on the AR ships are smoking and drinking with the woman in the shipyards and very little is being done, I, as the supreme commander would like to know. Time to kick some butt. [:'(]

If the ARs are doing very little to repair ships at a port size 10 (especially with a ship yard to boot), but seems to do a good job with a port size 1, I can move small ships / less damaged ships out of PH and to one of the adjacent islands with an AR for the repairs.

[Nikademus]

AR's are very useful in helping badly flooded ships survive, even in smaller ports (size 3 for example).

[brisd]

I agree that the sample is too small to give any definitive results but it is a good topic. Having served onboard both an AR and AD (WW2 class ships in USN), they were very often used at forward deployed ports, often those big atolls. They were capable of doing several hundred individual small repair jobs simultaneously as they were literally floating machine shops with around 1000 hull technicians, machinery repairmen, welders, shipfitters, enginemen, electrians, boiler technicians, gunnersmates, etc. Their efforts would be more useful in real life at a port WITHOUT a shipyard but I don't know if this is reflected in the game. I intend to build LOTS of AR's and put them everywhere my broke ships are[8D].

USS JASON during WW2 camaflage paint scheme

[Kwik E Mart]

My strategy as Allied player at beginning of campaign scens has been to send ships with less than about 50 sys damage back to the West Coast from PH for repair. This means that a couple of days after Dec 7th, about 3 BB's and 2CL/CA's head back to SF. At first I was leaving them all in SF. Now with new campaign starts, I split them up between SF and LA (BB's to SF and CL/CA's to LA). I can usually get the BB's and CL's back to fully repaired by late Jan, early Feb 42. These get rotated back to PH, and the more heavily damaged BB's and DD's that were in PH get sent back to the now empty repair yards on the West Coast. This seems to work much faster than letting them all get repaired in PH. It seems that at PH, ships with low SYS damage (<10) were getting repair priority over the more heavily damaged ships. So if you are conducting alot of transport activities from PH (which you probably should be doing), the transports with small SYS damage that have been making long hauls to SOPAC and SWPAC seem to be absorbing the repair points that a base commander might realistically direct towards the heavily damaged capital ships. My conclusion is that the AR's are increasing repair in PH, but there are so many damaged ships there (with the addition of the low SYS damaged transports) that the effect is diluted.

Just my observations, without the Rand Corp data analysis that some seem to prefer [;)]

[byron13]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

My strategy as Allied player at beginning of campaign scens has been to send ships with less than about 50 sys damage back to the West Coast from PH for repair. This means that a couple of days after Dec 7th, about 3 BB's and 2CL/CA's head back to SF. At first I was leaving them all in SF. Now with new campaign starts, I split them up between SF and LA (BB's to SF and CL/CA's to LA). I can usually get the BB's and CL's back to fully repaired by late Jan, early Feb 42. These get rotated back to PH, and the more heavily damaged BB's and DD's that were in PH get sent back to the now empty repair yards on the West Coast. This seems to work much faster than letting them all get repaired in PH. It seems that at PH, ships with low SYS damage (<10) were getting repair priority over the more heavily damaged ships. So if you are conducting alot of transport activities from PH (which you probably should be doing), the transports with small SYS damage that have been making long hauls to SOPAC and SWPAC seem to be absorbing the repair points that a base commander might realistically direct towards the heavily damaged capital ships. My conclusion is that the AR's are increasing repair in PH, but there are so many damaged ships there (with the addition of the low SYS damaged transports) that the effect is diluted.

Just my observations, without the Rand Corp data analysis that some seem to prefer [;)]

Could it be that the ships with the lower system damage that you keep at PH are ships with a smaller durability rating? Remember, there's a formula that allows extra repairs if the ship being repaired has a smaller durability vis-a-vis repair points available in the port. The effect you are seeing may not be priority given to ships with less damage so much as it is that ships with smaller durability numbers (that happen to have been damaged less because they were not primary targets of the PH attack) are being repaired faster. But, I haven't figured all this out yet either. I basically use the system Mr. Mart uses.

Nik has a good use for ARs. Since they have the effect of increasing the port size, and port size is important for making flotation repairs, a good use for the ARs would be in a very forward port to help rescue badly damaged ships in danger of sinking. For example, if you are fighting off of Guadalcanal, a damaged ship may sink before it reaches the nearest large port (probably Noumea), and a nearby size 1 or 2 port may not prevent it from sinking either. Put a couple of ARs very close to Guadalcanal, and maybe the additional port-size bump from port size 1 to port size 3 or 4 is sufficient to save the ship.

[fbastos]

It seems as though every game I play requires me at some point to explain random number generators. Suffice to say, your example doesn't have enough data in it to be a valid test of the effects. Run about 100 days on 10 different test games, then come back with the results. Until then, the vagaries of the dice could easily explain this situation and even worse ones.

I respectfully disagree that need to run 100 days to get strong results. If the program uses linear distribution on their random generator, 10 tests give a confidence greater than 80%; if they use normal distribution, the confidence is even greater. This means that 80% of the tests with 10 turns should give results close to average ones.

Of course, 80% confidence is not good enough to predict Presidential elections, but if you test two scenarios after 10 turns, and the results were similar, then probably whatever change you're doing probably doesn't have much effect.

A bit of academical discussion, though. I've run about 350 turns trying to see what effects naval HQ and AR ships have, and haven't seen anything that can be distinguished from random variation.

Regards,
F.

[fbastos]

The other thing to say is why do you have to understand every single formula down to the Nth decimal place prior to playing the game

Not intending to crack the formulas, Cruft. Just trying to understand if what I do has any effect at all.

For example, I spent a good amount of time and PP relocating the Asiatic Fleet to Pearl Harbor hoping to speed up repairs there, but it doesn't seem to have any effect at all.

Also, I spend a lot of time getting my damaged destroyers on a big port, when in fact any any level 3 port will do just as well (except if the ships is too badly damaged).

Regards,
F.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: byron13

Could it be that the ships with the lower system damage that you keep at PH are ships with a smaller durability rating? Remember, there's a formula that allows extra repairs if the ship being repaired has a smaller durability vis-a-vis repair points available in the port. The effect you are seeing may not be priority given to ships with less damage so much as it is that ships with smaller durability numbers (that happen to have been damaged less because they were not primary targets of the PH attack) are being repaired faster. But, I haven't figured all this out yet either. I basically use the system Mr. Mart uses.

Nik has a good use for ARs. Since they have the effect of increasing the port size, and port size is important for making flotation repairs, a good use for the ARs would be in a very forward port to help rescue badly damaged ships in danger of sinking. For example, if you are fighting off of Guadalcanal, a damaged ship may sink before it reaches the nearest large port (probably Noumea), and a nearby size 1 or 2 port may not prevent it from sinking either. Put a couple of ARs very close to Guadalcanal, and maybe the additional port-size bump from port size 1 to port size 3 or 4 is sufficient to save the ship.

Byron, you are correct....lower durability ships repair faster, it seems. The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully, apparently [8|]) is that given Ship A and Ship B with the same durability ratings, the ship with the lowest SYS damage seems to repair at a faster RATE than the other one. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not...just an observation.

[engineer]

I'm just a WPO player starting to come up to speed on WitP, but the ship repair points accumulate in yards so moving ships into a high repair point yard gives bonus repair until the repair points are consumed. (a Yorktown Rule)&nbsp; That certainly comes into play on getting damaged BBs back to the West Coast and the yards have had a chance to accumulate repair points.&nbsp;&nbsp; Looking at my WPO experience, HQ's certainly worked as advertised there in speeding up repairs.&nbsp; I did some tests comparing Seattle with San Diego (same 100 point shipyards) with an HQ in one and none in the other.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Both WPO/WitP are missing the enormous modible drydocks that were realized in WW2 and part of the 1920s contingency planning.&nbsp; I mod the game right off with 80 or 90 AR's that start showing up a couple of years after the war starts to simulate those assets (a speed 5 AR since the ocean going tugs are absracted).&nbsp;(I even dinked some art&nbsp;for it).&nbsp;Plus in WW2 the USN had several smaller mobile dry-docks already in the inventory that could handle cruisers and smaller ships.&nbsp; One was at Subic Bay, the Dewey, and ended up scuttled.&nbsp; More were built during the course of the war - ARD's.&nbsp; &nbsp;

[jwilkerson]

Though I've read otherwise, I think the max assistance you can get from a Naval HQ or a group of eligible AR, AS, AD is equivalent to four port levels. Being in a port with repair yards also helps, port size and port damage also figure in. Lots of die rolls and other factors too.

[Knavey]

Jw,
&nbsp;
Every once in a while they "leak" a snippet of code or two to show the complexity of different aspects of the game.&nbsp; Who authorizes that, and do you think we can petition to get something tossed out every so often?
&nbsp;
I forget the last one but it was quite a while ago.&nbsp; Everyone on the board went "Ahhh...so that is how it works" when they did release it.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Jw,

Every once in a while they "leak" a snippet of code or two to show the complexity of different aspects of the game.  Who authorizes that, and do you think we can petition to get something tossed out every so often?

I forget the last one but it was quite a while ago.  Everyone on the board went "Ahhh...so that is how it works" when they did release it.

In my experience .. a bottle of single malt to Don will get the best response!
[:D]