ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Ironduke:
I don't mean to be flippant with you. However, the question of Dietrich's surrender was immaterial to the discussions at hand. Even now I find it irrelevant. It really is a trivial WW2 issue which has no bearing on any important discussions.
Indeed, but who mentioned it first. We have a duty to be correct about anything we post, however trivial.
On such minor points of fact I usually don't spend much time on them.
On the other hand, on major points of fact, I will spend a great deal of time researching them.
The fact that you cannot seem to distinquish between these two things (minor vs major points of fact) is what I find frustrating about debating you.
I didn't debate you, merely corrected your facts where I believed there was innaccuracy.
The discussion originally centered around several hundred US soldiers and civilians being murdered by SS troops in the Ardennes.
You, however, decided to focus on to whom Dietrich surrendered at the end of the war.
I have posted on this as well. As I said, my initial post was merely to correct facts, not pass comment. I focused on it because it was wrong.
Websites
Here is a list of websites that all state that Dietrich surrendered to troops under Patton's command:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepp_Dietrich
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... trich.html
http://members.tripod.com/~SSPzComdr/SeppDietrich.html
http://www20.brinkster.com/tompoulsen/1 ... erdiv.html
I believe I have stated before I don't like websites, they are not peer reviewed and usually written from second hand sources because (quite understandably) they are written by enthusiastic amateur historians using resources at their disposal. However, what was noticeable was that they all use almost the same wording for this statement linking Dietrich and Patton, but don't give a source. My guess is their source is the same. I don't think we have four sources here, just four sources repeating something they've heard as none present evidence, but it's a moot point. They present no evidence, just make the statement.
[b]The Composition of Third Army[/b]
Your sources state that Dietrich surrendered to the 36 Division which belonged to XXI Corp and that XXI Corp belonged to the Seventh US Army on 30th April.
Note the above date 30th April.
Noted.
However, what your sources fail to mention is that starting near the first of May, Third Army was absorbing HUNDREDS of separate units under its command, including V Corps, and elements of XV Corps (from General Patch) and many other divisions (Ladislas, Farago, The Last Days of Patton (New York: McGraw-Hill, Inc., 1981), p. 66).
V Corp was transferred on 4th May. The source that tells me this (Weigley) tells me it raised the strength of 3rd Army to the largest it ever was (540 000 men). Therefore, I'm guessing the other units came under Patton's control as Governor of Bavaria after the war. Further to this point, I can't trace any transfer of XV Corp before war's end. On the 5th May, it was still under Devers, because he accepted the German First Army's surrender at XV Corp HQ.
In early May, 1945 Patton commanded troops throughout Germany and Czechoslovakia.
Source? I'm guessing this actually refers to mid-late May, when he became Governer of Bavaria. 3rd Army had ended the war in Czechoslovakia, so in addition to his command of them, he might well have taken control of forces in Southern Germany as Governer of Bavaria. However, I wouldn't have thought this would have been early May, as he couldn't have formally taken up this post until after the formal cessation of hostilities.
While Patton was instructed to attack northeast into Czechoslovakia with the XII and V Corps (op cit.), he was busy planning to move his headquarters near Munich (Martin Blumenson & George S. Patton, The Patton Papers 1940-1945; Da Capo Press; (October 1, 1996); p. 699).
The move to Munich happened on 23rd May according to D'Este, presumably in line with his capacity as Governor of Bavaria.
So two questions remain:
1) What unit did Dietrich surrender to on May 8, 1945? Your sources state that the 36 Division belonged to the Seventh US Army on 30th April. I am assuming your source is correct. However, it may not be.
My source was Reynolds book on 1st SS Panzer Corp. He also gives the place Dietrich surrendered (Kufstein) which was where a separate source (Shelby Stanton) says 36 Division ended the war. A third source (James Lucas Hitler's Enforcers) also states Dietrich was captured at Kufstein by 36 US Division. If you think they may be wrong, please state why, and your source for your suspicion. I don't believe it's enoguh to cast doubt on these sources just because they disagree with you.
2) And was this unit (after May 1, 1945) placed under Patton's command?
The real question is was this unit placed under Patton's command before they captured Dietrich? It is quite feasible they were placed under Patton's command eventually (it might explain why Dietrich and Patton were originally linked) because Patton was Military Commander of Bavaria after the war, and his authority may have extended into Austria. However, I can find nothing to suggest they belonged to him when they captured Dietrich (or after that, although maybe others have information on this).
However, having hit the websites versus history books argument, it may be best to leave this for the Forum to judge for themselves, and move onto Malmedy. We've both presented, let them judge.
IronDuke
Indeed, but who mentioned it first. We have a duty to be correct about anything we post, however trivial.
Well, you better be absolutely correct in everything you post, no matter how trivial it is. You do realize of course that this sort of thing will drive everyone crazy. [:D]
All I can say is you better be prepared to stand up to that same (and ridiculous) level of perfection in even the most trivial comment you make.
And I consider Dietrich's surrender to be very trivial. Something someone would find as a question in a WW2 trivia game.
Yet, you cannot seem to distinquish between the trivial and the important. This is very frustrating. So far we have wasted hours on what to me is truly an insignificant fact.
When I am looking for insignificant details such as birthdates, surrender dates, etc, I usually just look at a few websites, especially if they seem to be correct in most of the major issues.
As for the rest, I am not pitting websites against books; only that for minor things such as these I will look at several websites. And you'll note they all agree on who Dietrich surrendered to. There are many more websites than these.
As to the final issue of who Dietrich surrendered to: It is not really important to me. So I will go with your assertion of it being the 36th Division. But who was in command over this division on May 8,1945?
I have looked through every book I have, and I cannot find anything definite. Perhaps, in the future I may run across more information.
