Von Paulus

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a19999577
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by a19999577 »

ORIGINAL: Frank

Of course the US government had to be replaced, too, because they neglected Afroamericans the same rights as whites.

Going after parts of your population was a widespread hobby of ALL societies at that time.


Quite right.

But they were certainly aware (or at least should have been) of Nazi moral bankruptcy and Hitler's warlike intentions yet they continued to complicity support the regime.


I'm guessing most American Generals are 'certainly aware' or should be of Bush's warlike intentions... I mean, after all, Hitler bluffed his way into the Rhineland, Austria and the Sudetenland, which were all issues in which he did have some semblance of justice. And his bluff was finally called over the Polish corridor issue, another fairly just cause for Germany.

Nowadays, we have a guy who was seemingly planning a war with Iraq (ok, these guys might have invaded Kuwait in 1990, but Poland invaded the USSR in the 1920s and voraciously took land from them, Lithuania and the quickly disappearing Czechoslovakia, so there are some similiarities there...) from the day he came into office, and he justified it over some WMD that there never seemed to be any evidence for.

Does the fact that American Generals are not overthrowing this warmonger mean they are 'morally paralyzed' and thus 'unable to do the right thing on a strategic and operational level either'?

Seems like a huge leap of logic right there...[:-]
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by Kevinugly »

I think it's dangerous to draw a parallel between Bush and Hitler the way you do. As far as I'm aware Bush isn't advocating the kind of immoral policies Hitler did and I think that's what Golf is referring to rather than Hitler's war-mongering. The German generals lacked the will to see how debased the Nazi regime actually was and once WW2 had begun they were no longer in a position to do anything about it anyway.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by dinsdale »

Those who compare Bush, or anyone else without >10 million murders for that matter, to Hitler simply display their ignorance and emotional immaturity. Everytime Hitler, Nazi or Facist are used in today's world to describe what you do not agree with, not only do you cheapen the memory of real victims, but you also lesson the impact of what National Socialism truly is.

There are plenty of valid criticisms which can be levelled at Bush, "Hitler" is not one of them. Have a little more creativity, and display just some knowledge of what you're throwing around as an insult.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by a19999577 »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

Those who compare Bush, or anyone else without >10 million murders for that matter, to Hitler simply display their ignorance and emotional immaturity. Everytime "Hitler", "Nazi" or "Fascist" are used in today's world to describe what you do not agree with, not only do you cheapen the memory of the real victims, but you also lessen the impact of what National Socialism truly is.

There are plenty of valid criticisms which can be levelled at Bush, "Hitler" is not one of them. Have a little more creativity, and display just some knowledge of what you're throwing around as an insult.

<I have corrected some of your spelling mistakes, btw>

Not quite. I am not comparing 1945 Hitler with Bush, I am comparing 1933-1938 Hitler's foreign policies with Bush only as far as their General's 'moral duty' to depose them is concerned. I insist that it is unfair to give German Generals the ability to foresee what was going to happen and thus hold them morally responsible for not preventing it. Right now we can debate our heads off on whether Bush is going to lead this world into an age of Atomic 'terrorism' due to his warmongering policies, but we don't know he will, just as anyone in 1938 didn't know Hitler would lead the world into another World War.

Sure, with the information available in 1938 or early 39 they could have argued that he would, but at the time it was mere speculation. What if I told you that with the information available now I speculated that Bush would start a war with North Korea, who would respond with nuclear attacks and facilitating nuclear technology to their enemy's enemies [Al-Qaida etc.], which would in turn lead to Tel Aviv and New York getting nuked with hidden weapons or something? Would it be fair of me to DEMAND Colin Powell lead a military insurrection against Bush in order to prevent what I speculate might happen?

I repeat, it is not my intention to insult either leader (Hitler or Bush) by comparing them to one another [nor am I trying to compare them], I am pointing out that one cannot make 'moral' admonishments based on information unavailable to the people at the time. It is academically senseless and baseless. Heinz Guderian couldn't escape his context any more than Colin Powell can.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by riverbravo »

Paulus is a tough one to figure out.

He's not like Hitler were the word 'lunatic' somes it all up nicely.

I think he was overwhelmed at the situation he was in.With good reason of course.

I also find it hard to believe that he bought into Goerings speal about 500,000 tons of supplies a day.

Paulus probably got to the point were just said enough.Maybe some of my men will make it home if we surrender.

I like the fact that he denied hitler his last man, last bullet crap.I dont like that fact that he cozied up to the Russians after he was captured.

I dont know if 6th army had enough to breakout even with Mansteins troops pushing to break them out.

The cause was lost.I blame it on Hitler.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by Kevinugly »

ORIGINAL: a19999577


Not quite. I am not comparing 1945 Hitler with Bush, I am comparing 1933-1938 Hitler's foreign policies with Bush only as far as their General's 'moral duty' to depose them is concerned. I insist that it is unfair to give German Generals the ability to foresee what was going to happen and thus hold them morally responsible for not preventing it. Right now we can debate our heads off on whether Bush is going to lead this world into an age of Atomic 'terrorism' due to his warmongering policies, but we don't know he will, just as anyone in 1938 didn't know Hitler would lead the world into another World War.


I know what you're saying but it's not the foreign policy that I believe Golf was referring to but the domestic policy. That's where the generals failed due to their 'moral paralysis' and where they could have given leadership and deposed Hitler in 1938.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by Golf33 »

Can I apologise at this point for derailing the thread? Tombstone is quite right, I took this out of context.

As far as Paulus' generalship is concerned, I don't think he demonstrated any greater degree of paralysis than any other German general - Rundstedt for instance - who obeyed orders from Hitler that were militarily suicidal (compare German actions in Normandy 1944 and the Ardennes, 1944-45). This applies as much to 6th Army's presence in Stalingrad in the first place as it does to their failure to break out - the whole thing seems to have been a serious error at a much higher level and cannot all the laid at Paulus' door.

I don't recall the source now, but I have read somewhere that the encirclement of 6th Army actually paid dividends to the Germans on a larger scale because it acted as a brake on the Soviet counter-offensive. This enabled the Germans to bring back their most exposed forces and prevented a disaster on the scale of Bagration. Had Stalingrad been evacuated in a timely manner, the Soviets might well have cut off the German forces advancing on Baku as well.

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33
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: a19999577
<I have corrected some of your spelling mistakes, btw>
Good for you, hope it was an interesting task.

Not quite. I am not comparing 1945 Hitler with Bush, I am comparing 1933-1938 Hitler's foreign policies with Bush only as far as their General's 'moral duty' to depose them is concerned. I insist that it is unfair to give German Generals the ability to foresee what was going to happen and thus hold them morally responsible for not preventing it.
So none of them read Mein Kampf, knew about the Nuremburg Laws, or knew of any attrocity carried out in Germany, Austria or The Sudentenland. Must have been a very lazy set of officers to be so unaware of their leader's grand design and the actions being carried out by their troops.
Right now we can debate our heads off on whether Bush is going to lead this world into an age of Atomic 'terrorism' due to his warmongering policies, but we don't know he will, just as anyone in 1938 didn't know Hitler would lead the world into another World War.
No, no one was aware of the Z-plan, or had partaken in militarist expansion between 1936 and 1938 at all [8|] I'm sure the war came as a huge surprise to the German military, somehow less of a surprise than to Britain and France who began war preparations before the ink on Munich was dry.
Sure, with the information available in 1938 or early 39 they could have argued that he would, but at the time it was mere speculation. ... Would it be fair of me to DEMAND Colin Powell lead a military insurrection against Bush in order to prevent what I speculate might happen?
It was most certainly more than mere speculation in 1938. If the scenario you propose today were as clear-cut as that, then it would be a duty of Powell et al to prevent it from happening.
Heinz Guderian couldn't escape his context any more than Colin Powell can.
No, I suppose Guderian had no idea what would happen when war was threatened in 1938, how could he possibly forsee a war one year later.

Perhaps the findings of the Nuremburg Tribunal puts it better than I can

[referring to General Staff and High Command of the German Armed Forces] They have been responsible in large measure for the miseries and suffering that have fallen on millions of men, women and children. They have been a disgrace to the honourable profession of arms. Without their military guidance the aggressive ambitions of Hitler and his fellow Nazis would have been academic and sterile. Although they were not a group falling within the words of the Charter they were certainly a ruthless military caste. The contemporary German militarism flourished briefly with its recent ally, National Socialism, as well as or better than it had in the generations of the past

Apologies for my part in derailing the thread. I care nothing for what others may think of Bush, but whenever the comparison to Nazi Germany is made it cheapens the suffering of that regieme's victims, and the cost in lives to remove them from the earth.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: Golf33

Can I apologise at this point for derailing the thread? Tombstone is quite right, I took this out of context.

As far as Paulus' generalship is concerned, I don't think he demonstrated any greater degree of paralysis than any other German general - Rundstedt for instance - who obeyed orders from Hitler that were militarily suicidal (compare German actions in Normandy 1944 and the Ardennes, 1944-45). This applies as much to 6th Army's presence in Stalingrad in the first place as it does to their failure to break out - the whole thing seems to have been a serious error at a much higher level and cannot all the laid at Paulus' door.

I don't recall the source now, but I have read somewhere that the encirclement of 6th Army actually paid dividends to the Germans on a larger scale because it acted as a brake on the Soviet counter-offensive. This enabled the Germans to bring back their most exposed forces and prevented a disaster on the scale of Bagration. Had Stalingrad been evacuated in a timely manner, the Soviets might well have cut off the German forces advancing on Baku as well.

Regards
33

I'd disagree on Normandy, I think this was an infantryman's battle, not a Generals, and Rundstedt may have been paralysed, but not necessarily to German detriment in this battle. Mortain is lunacy, but this comes very late when the situation is beyond redemption, and is Hitler's fault.

I agree about 6th Army's encirclement. A large number of Soviet forces were tied down reducing the pocket for several weeks. This allowed Army Group A (if memory serves) to withdraw from the Caucasus. Manstein's armoured thrust to relieve Stalingrad also drew an entire Guards Army away from the ongoing Soviet Offensives to block it. This left the offensives short on resources, particularly in the face of the ongoing and exellent tactical performance of Balck and 11th Panzer (amongst others).

Unpalatable as it may seem, you can argue that the continuing resistance and eventual sacrifice of 6th Army allowed Manstein to stablise the Southern front in the face of intense Soviet pressure and extricate another Army Group from potential encirclement. I'm not wholly convinced (but it is a powerful argument that has a lot of merit, and I am certainly partially convinced).

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RE: Von Paulus

Post by IronDuke_slith »

As for the Bush thing.....

I don't think it was ever going to be likely for any German General to resist Hitler during re-armament in the 30s. Prussian military tradition, the oath, the string of foreign policy successes, the rising numbers of NAZIs in the Junior ranks of the Officer Corp (but some senor as well) meant it was never on.

I wouldn't expect or want any American General to oppose Bush (regardless of what I think of the war in Iraq) because Bush was democratically elected (chads notwithstanding) and if the Army isn't going to bow to the will of the people, then we're at risk from them nearly as much as we are from any potential enemy.

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RE: Von Paulus

Post by Error in 0 »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
ORIGINAL: a19999577
<I have corrected some of your spelling mistakes, btw>
Good for you, hope it was an interesting task.

Not quite. I am not comparing 1945 Hitler with Bush, I am comparing 1933-1938 Hitler's foreign policies with Bush only as far as their General's 'moral duty' to depose them is concerned. I insist that it is unfair to give German Generals the ability to foresee what was going to happen and thus hold them morally responsible for not preventing it.
So none of them read Mein Kampf, knew about the Nuremburg Laws, or knew of any attrocity carried out in Germany, Austria or The Sudentenland. Must have been a very lazy set of officers to be so unaware of their leader's grand design and the actions being carried out by their troops.
Right now we can debate our heads off on whether Bush is going to lead this world into an age of Atomic 'terrorism' due to his warmongering policies, but we don't know he will, just as anyone in 1938 didn't know Hitler would lead the world into another World War.
No, no one was aware of the Z-plan, or had partaken in militarist expansion between 1936 and 1938 at all [8|] I'm sure the war came as a huge surprise to the German military, somehow less of a surprise than to Britain and France who began war preparations before the ink on Munich was dry.
Sure, with the information available in 1938 or early 39 they could have argued that he would, but at the time it was mere speculation. ... Would it be fair of me to DEMAND Colin Powell lead a military insurrection against Bush in order to prevent what I speculate might happen?
It was most certainly more than mere speculation in 1938. If the scenario you propose today were as clear-cut as that, then it would be a duty of Powell et al to prevent it from happening.
Heinz Guderian couldn't escape his context any more than Colin Powell can.
No, I suppose Guderian had no idea what would happen when war was threatened in 1938, how could he possibly forsee a war one year later.

Perhaps the findings of the Nuremburg Tribunal puts it better than I can

[referring to General Staff and High Command of the German Armed Forces] They have been responsible in large measure for the miseries and suffering that have fallen on millions of men, women and children. They have been a disgrace to the honourable profession of arms. Without their military guidance the aggressive ambitions of Hitler and his fellow Nazis would have been academic and sterile. Although they were not a group falling within the words of the Charter they were certainly a ruthless military caste. The contemporary German militarism flourished briefly with its recent ally, National Socialism, as well as or better than it had in the generations of the past

Apologies for my part in derailing the thread. I care nothing for what others may think of Bush, but whenever the comparison to Nazi Germany is made it cheapens the suffering of that regieme's victims, and the cost in lives to remove them from the earth.

There is a (some?) steps between a war and holocaust. Nobody here believe the German generals were surprised that the war broke, but that does not mean they understood how insane Hitler and the Naziz were. The same can be applied today and USA to some extend. Bush and his old fathers buddies attacked Iraq by lying to the entire US population, and world, put people in prisons way below any human right standards merely on suspicion, officially convicted them long before any trail. Tortured these soldiers, both in Iraq and on guatamola base (or whatever it is called). He was allowd to do so because of 11. sept. Now, the german situation after WW1 was far worse for the germans, and likewise the opposition against war was not strong.

As to passing jugdement: it the case you refer to, allies pass jugdement on germans. Today, americans pass jugdement on americans. Biased? Of cource. I wonder what the world make of Bush and his buddies in 60 years time [X(]


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RE: Von Paulus

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
There is a (some?) steps between a war and holocaust. Nobody here believe the German generals were surprised that the war broke, but that does not mean they understood how insane Hitler and the Naziz were.
Mein Kampf and the occurences within Germany, Austria and Sudentenland should have been a very large clue. So too the planning for war, including the well known Plan Z. I suggest if any of these items are a mystery to you then a simple google search should at least help. Then you can judge for yourself how much the German army knew in 1938.
<SENSELESS RANT SNIPPED>
I have absolutely no intention of being baited into a discussion which is both incorrect and irrelevant. If you believe the situation in Nazi Germany circa 1938 is similar to that of America in 2004 then I suggest our differences are so great as to be a waste of time discussing the issue. Obviously the full extent of German crimes during the era are either no longer taught, or conveniently forgotten.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by Error in 0 »

Sensless rant? What did I say that was wrong? Was not the Iraqi war based on a lie? Has there been no torture of prisoners? I think it is rather that you are an american, and you feel I express hate towards your country.


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RE: Von Paulus

Post by a19999577 »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale


Not quite. I am not comparing 1945 Hitler with Bush, I am comparing 1933-1938 Hitler's foreign policies with Bush only as far as their General's 'moral duty' to depose them is concerned. I insist that it is unfair to give German Generals the ability to foresee what was going to happen and thus hold them morally responsible for not preventing it.
So none of them read Mein Kampf, knew about the Nuremburg Laws, or knew of any attrocity carried out in Germany, Austria or The Sudentenland. Must have been a very lazy set of officers to be so unaware of their leader's grand design and the actions being carried out by their troops.
Right now we can debate our heads off on whether Bush is going to lead this world into an age of Atomic 'terrorism' due to his warmongering policies, but we don't know he will, just as anyone in 1938 didn't know Hitler would lead the world into another World War.
No, no one was aware of the Z-plan, or had partaken in militarist expansion between 1936 and 1938 at all [8|] I'm sure the war came as a huge surprise to the German military, somehow less of a surprise than to Britain and France who began war preparations before the ink on Munich was dry.
Sure, with the information available in 1938 or early 39 they could have argued that he would, but at the time it was mere speculation. ... Would it be fair of me to DEMAND Colin Powell lead a military insurrection against Bush in order to prevent what I speculate might happen?
It was most certainly more than mere speculation in 1938. If the scenario you propose today were as clear-cut as that, then it would be a duty of Powell et al to prevent it from happening.

Apologies for my part in derailing the thread. I care nothing for what others may think of Bush, but whenever the comparison to Nazi Germany is made it cheapens the suffering of that regieme's victims, and the cost in lives to remove them from the earth.


I repeat, I am not comparing Nazi Germany to any other regime.

I am pointing out that most German Generals [except, of course, Beck] had a more 'sensible' [at the time] reading of Hitler's future. His anti-communist and anti-semitic rhetoric was seen as posturing that wouldn't go much further. If they had been convinced of what was going to happen, then sure, hold them responsible, but talking about genocide and whole-scale war and war crimes in 1938 would, at the time, seem mostly alarmist exaggeration.

As for 'comparing' the Nazis with anyone else being off-limits, I do realize that that is what people think now, but it is far from the way it has to be. I, as a historian, don't have anything off limits for dissection, and I don't need to say that Genghis Khan was a 'big, bad, meanie' when talking about his statesmanship.

I, too, apologize for derailing the thread, and don't have much more to say on the topic. If anyone wants to continue blaming us for not getting rid of anyone we think might develop destructive tendencies in the future, that's ok with me.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: a19999577
I am pointing out that most German Generals [except, of course, Beck] had a more 'sensible' [at the time] reading of Hitler's future. His anti-communist and anti-semitic rhetoric was seen as posturing that wouldn't go much further. If they had been convinced of what was going to happen, then sure, hold them responsible, but talking about genocide and whole-scale war and war crimes in 1938 would, at the time, seem mostly alarmist exaggeration.

Alarmist? Not so for the Allied prosecutors at Nuremburg who indicted the entire General Staff and attempted to have it named as a criminal organization equivalent to the SS. By 1938 the persecution of Jews had already begun, the widespread use of concentration camps for German citizens was underway, Austria had been conquered, and Czechoslovakia threatened with war. I find no excuse but willful blindness for the Wehrmacht.
As for 'comparing' the Nazis with anyone else being off-limits, I do realize that that is what people think now, but it is far from the way it has to be. I, as a historian, don't have anything off limits for dissection, and I don't need to say that Genghis Khan was a 'big, bad, meanie' when talking about his statesmanship.
I agree, but when it's used as a blanket insult then it loses it's meaning to the point of worthlessness.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Sensless rant? What did I say that was wrong? Was not the Iraqi war based on a lie? Has there been no torture of prisoners? I think it is rather that you are an american, and you feel I express hate towards your country.

Yes senseless rant, much like your interuption of the thread about "allied" generals. In your rush to spout venom you were not even aware that the discussion centred on 1991.

In case you're unaware, I'm not American, and could not for one second care what you express for my country.

I suggest if you want to discuss these issues, find a venue for them, any discussion of modern politics usually results in a closed thread on this one, and I fail to see how your allegations are in any way pertinent to either Von Paulus, or the theoretical pre-war culpability of the German army.
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by Error in 0 »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Sensless rant? What did I say that was wrong? Was not the Iraqi war based on a lie? Has there been no torture of prisoners? I think it is rather that you are an american, and you feel I express hate towards your country.

Yes senseless rant, much like your interuption of the thread about "allied" generals. In your rush to spout venom you were not even aware that the discussion centred on 1991.

In case you're unaware, I'm not American, and could not for one second care what you express for my country.

I suggest if you want to discuss these issues, find a venue for them, any discussion of modern politics usually results in a closed thread on this one, and I fail to see how your allegations are in any way pertinent to either Von Paulus, or the theoretical pre-war culpability of the German army.

Yes, this is getting too political, so I will not press the issue much further. I believe it is very difficult to know how the future will be. And when we speculate on it, we tend to improve it. If you Dinsdale think the german generals schould have got ridden of hitler prior -38, I dont believe you have a basic understanding of germany in these times. Also, as has been done here, we can point to similar situations elsewhere in history, past and maybe present. USA is not Nazi germany, but what they have done in order to start a war is worrying. Who knows what they can do in the future? I dont expect US generals to even officially question this, so why on earth do YOU believe german generals schould have done much more? And as to what was said of germans after the war: it was the victor passing jugdement on the defeated. You are naive to believe that view is not biased.


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RE: Von Paulus

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
If you Dinsdale think the german generals schould have got ridden of hitler prior -38, I dont believe you have a basic understanding of germany in these times.

I've dealt with this in replies to another poster. Obviously neither myself, nor the allied prosecutors at Nuremburg have a basic understanding of Germany in 1938. There was IIRC a plot on Hitlers life that year, perhaps by some uniquely enlightened beings? Several of them would resurface in 1944 and try again, did they have no grasp of life in Germany in 1938
Also, as has been done here, we can point to similar situations elsewhere in history, past and maybe present. USA is not Nazi germany, but what they have done in order to start a war is worrying. Who knows what they can do in the future?
Yes, the US obviously stands on the brink of genocide, has active concentration camps, a manifesto to destroy one religion, war plans to invade each of it's neighbours and no means of replacing it's executive. [8|]
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RE: Von Paulus

Post by IronDuke_slith »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale


I've dealt with this in replies to another poster. Obviously neither myself, nor the allied prosecutors at Nuremburg have a basic understanding of Germany in 1938. There was IIRC a plot on Hitlers life that year, perhaps by some uniquely enlightened beings? Several of them would resurface in 1944 and try again, did they have no grasp of life in Germany in 1938


If memory serves, this was a lone gunman. He planted a bomb in the BurgerBraukellar timed to go off during one of Hitler's speeches the following week. The speech was a yearly event marking the Putsch I think (but don't quote me). Hitler left early (I think because one of his current foreign policy ventures was coming to the boil) and the bomb went off on time but didn't get him.

The NAZIs caught the Guy but didn't really know what to do with him. He lived in a concentration camp until 1945 when he was summarily executed as the liberation neared. I should be able to dig out better detail if you're interested.

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RE: Von Paulus

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
If memory serves, this was a lone gunman. He planted a bomb in the BurgerBraukellar timed to go off during one of Hitler's speeches the following week. The speech was a yearly event marking the Putsch I think (but don't quote me). Hitler left early (I think because one of his current foreign policy ventures was coming to the boil) and the bomb went off on time but didn't get him.

The NAZIs caught the Guy but didn't really know what to do with him. He lived in a concentration camp until 1945 when he was summarily executed as the liberation neared. I should be able to dig out better detail if you're interested.

Regards,
IronDuke
Believe it or not, that was yet another assasination attempt [:)] The one I refer to is known as the Oster Plot, which alledgedly also included Canaris and Halder, immediately prior to the Munich conference.
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