Jap Carrier Pilot Replacement - too low!!

[Brady]

"But just to satisfy my curiosity how many trained pilots do you think Japan should get in the first year of the war? "

Honestly I dont Know, since the game is not true to history in this regard anyway it is very hard to arive at a figure, and since my sources are not good for the Army in this regard and only particaily so for the Navy it is dificult to say, what my sources show is that what is given at present is at face value just a token in the game. This is whear it gets kinda hard to make a good point since the lines are blury to begine with. From the Hip simply doubling it would seam a good start, but the Army should realy get more than the Navy so finding a good figure is hard presently for me to arive at.

"Would a good simple solution be to just add a few more Daitai and call them training units "

I think your workaround for the piolet training is a frankely brilent game play tactic, one I hope to be able to emulate myself. Howeaver I am kinda put off by the fact that it must be done in the first place, since the Japanese ecenomy is not represented at anywhear near the fullest extent and the fact that we must dink with this is realy a big pain in the pooper and efectively saps 1/3 of your front line strength..that alone is a big peave of mine, granted in the first part of the war this is not a big deal but soon enough these units will be neaded...but No we have to train our own piolets in WiTP because they think 10 a month is the corect leval?!?!? You clould as you say add some extra units to represent training, and posably even add some extra suply/resources to make up for feading them this would at least make up for the loss in force.

Trained replacements/ or untrained is also an interesting idea.

[mogami]

Hi, Brady it should be pretty easy to get an answer from you.
Why don't you just post your version of the Japanese OOB.

Do it like this.

1st Ftr Daitai Tokyo 27xA6M2
a new group would be like this
5 Jan 1942 1st Ftr Daitai Tokyo 27xA6M2

As you compile your OOB you just note "included in WITP" or "Not included in WITP"
If a group was disbanded you note the date and location it was disbanded. If a group changed aircraft type you note the date location and new type of aircraft.

Then you count all the pilots. This does not give you how many pilot Japan trained for any specific period but you know how many they required at any specific time in order to fully man their groups.

When you are all done you will no longer have to "guess or feel" about WITP numbers you will know one way or the other. If for any specific date you have a number of aircraft other then normal TOE it note that.

[caslug]

I only brought the low number (10/mo) because I read that Captain Minoro Genda, mastermind of Pearl Harbor stated, "The strenght of JNAF at the beginning of the war was 3-4000 pilots. About 1500 were trained for carriers..."

While Col. Junji Hyashi, Chief of Staff of JAAF 51st Training Division, told Allied officers: "JAAF had appx. 2000 pilots w/ 300 hrs training in 1941....Training divisions had about 750 planes and each graduated 300 pilots every 3 mos. Cadets had lower physical standards as war progressed, but mental skills remained the same and there was no cause for degradation in that regards."

Frag&Mogami brought up a critical point, new units come in fully staff. So this makes it a little more easier to understand. Too bad we can't just have training school(basic, intermediate, adv) and allow us to allocate percentages to different type of planes based on exp/scores. I'm not advocating placing indvidual pilots to fighters, attack planes etc., but maybe fighters get top 30% of each class, bombers get middle 30%, transport gets bottom 20%, etc.,

[Arkady]

ORIGINAL: caslug
...
I'm not advocating placing indvidual pilots to fighters, attack planes etc., but maybe fighters get top 30% of each class, bombers get middle 30%, transport gets bottom 20%, etc.,

Are you sure ? [:D]
Do you want your special sake delivery transport plane crashed by inexperienced pilot ? [:-]

My cargo planes pilots must be very experienced...[8D]

[tigercub]

Hi everyone

I have started a PBEM game of scenario #15 against a local friend. I'm the Allies.

We used the editor to change many things in the game: one of the main ones was to increase the Jap pilot income to 75/60 for the army and navy. We have done much reading and we agreed that the Japaneses might have had low pilot training for many reasons in different parts of the war but overall it improved to meet most of their needs until the big fuel crisis prevented first class training.

The low 10/20 per month is too debilitating for the Japanese. And certainly does not represent the Japanese ability. Sure they have an "unlimted" supply of untrained pilots in the game but surely these didnot start appearing until mid 1943,NOT December 1941! The pre-war Jap CV pilots were certainly a one-of-a-kind elite. But that doesn't mean that the next generation are only 10 well trained pilots plus many poorly trained zombies. With 60 trained pilots per month we agreed it would give the Japanese a chance to stay competitive but remaining in an historical average for the Japanese. The pilot quality starts to decline according to the manual, 1944 the Army is experience 50 and navy 45. And when the Japs begin to lose many planes in 1943 their third generation of pilots will start to contain the "untrained" elements that all Allied Fanboys like to read about. (And the 1944 Turkey Shoot will show).

I think that the Japanese had good pilots but they were severely restricted by tactics, supply, support, inadequate planes, and choosing to fight the wrong battles at the wrong time and place.

[mogami]

Hi, At 75/60 Japan should never have a pilot problem. Remember this is in addition to the trained pilots Japan gets with new groups that as I've shown already give Japan over 600 Navy pilots in first year. You've made it so that a Japanese supply shortage will have little impact on Japanese pilot quality.
Japan is supposed to train pilots on map. Any demand over that 600 pilots the first year is supposed to be trained on map. Now there is no reason for Japan to ever train a pilot on map.
2700 trained Navy pilots for the war may not sound like much but this is in exess of all the new arrivals. 2700 pilots is almost enough for Japan to replace the entire IJN airforces 2 times for free. (and the 3450 free Army pilots allow the replacement of the IJA more then 2 times) How many times do you think the Japanese were able to replace their entire airforce before they could not do it again with trained pilots. (Hint Japan began to use less trained pilots before they had lost 1000 combined Army/Navy pilots. The percentage of less trained pilots only increased over time. Even as Japan expanded training programs the percentage of what we would consider poorly trained pilots in combat units increased.

at 75/60 Japan is a super power. (She gets 1350 trained Navy pilots in the first year now. More then enough to replace the loss of Midway and Solomons. )

[Hard Sarge]

The strenght of JNAF at the beginning of the war was 3-4000 pilots. About 1500 were trained for carriers..."

okay, well, which one is it ?, did they have 3000 trained pilots, or did they have 4000 trained pilots ? just a little bit of a fudge factor there

I mean were half of them Carrier trained, or were a third of them Carrier trained ?

Brady, I disagree with your statements, your not sure how many should be there, if the game had come with 20 a month, you would complain, if it came with 100 a month, you would complain

like your arguement about the Ki-100, being a good 2nd Gen plane, come on man, all your info, and you trying to say it was designed ?, I would think that would be the last plane you would bring up, since the only reason it was made, was the Ki-61 couldn't be, they had frames and wings, but no engines, so they added a engine that was laying around, and it worked out much better then they thought it would, and in fact turned out to be a pretty good plane, for a hybrd

the Franks and Georges turned out to be pretty good planes too, once they were brought back to the states and tested, once they got good fuel and got the right engine work done, they turned into monsters, but the pilots who fought them, didn't see them that way, and, the test pilots hated to fly them, they never knew if they would land (which I believe that was also a complaint on the Ki-100, weak landing gear, due to poor Heat treating)

so, how many do you want, 10, 20, 100 ? keep asking, Mogami will just keep showing how if you plan and play the game right, you don't need them

gee I guess I get to be a fanboy now too

HARD_Sarge

Anti_Whine_Fanboy_Club

[tigercub]

Hi again,

The army has 12x75=900
the navy has 12x60=720 REPLACEMENT pilots.=1620 annually.

Don't forget that the experience of the pilot pool declines each year for Japan. The first generation of replacement pilots are less than the pre-war ones. And it declines each year. I think Japan did have to replace it's airforce many times over, at lease once in the first year and then increasing after that. Those flimsy Japanese aircraft were very costly in casualties to operate. Plus they had to try to increase their force size. BUT I'm certain their pilot skill didnot plummit as the current unchanged pilot replacements implies. Only some rich kid you bought his place in the training system would be flying at 35 experience in 1942.

tigercub

[tigercub]

Hey, who is whining?

We are just saying we don't agree with the current settings. And trying to get a better deal for history. The Japanese pilot replacement level is so obviously below an accurate figure that something has to be said. People here believe that the Japanese pilot skill did not decline so rapidly that the game suggests. And we are "discussing" its realism and impact on the game.

I'm sorry you feel that when someone disagrees with you it is whining.

tigercub

[tsimmonds]

HARD_Sarge

Anti_Whine_Fanboy_Club

Sign me up, HARD_Sarge!!

[tsimmonds]

I'm sorry you feel that when someone disagrees with you it is whining.

Don't worry, it's only whining if it sounds like whining.

[mogami]

Hi, TIgercub. Japanese pilot training did decrease. This is a known fact. We have posted many times the number of hours Japanese pilots flew in training by year. We also posted the number of hours Allied plilots flew in training by year.

The result is that late war Allied pilots flew more training hours then prewar Japanese pilots. Japanese late war pilots flew less then 100 hours in training. Our pilots have told us that it requires 300 hours to get a pilot to where he can do things other then just fly. (Like look out the window for enemy aircraft)
Japanese training has to be tied to Japanese supply levels. I mean it has to be on map. The pilot pool is not intended as the source for trained pilots but to augment it. (The pilot pool is where pilots for your shipboard/submarine float planes come from) Combat groups arrive on map trained. Replacements for these groups are supposed to come from training on map. By raising the pool numbers you've bypassed the need for the Japanese to train pilots.
There were good Japanese pilots all through the war. However by 1943 the Japanese had placed pilots with less then 1/3 the experiance into combat. With a 60 per month rate onto top of free pilots in groups they should have in pool a sizeable surplus going into 1943. (The IJN would have to lose over 2k pilots to not have a surplus)
60 per month would be correct if we had new groups draw pilots from pool when they first arrive on map.
Once and for all. I'm never going to involve myself in this debate again. The pool and new group pilots are freebies. They are not and never were the Japanese training program. The game as designed requires the Japanese player to conduct his training on map. How many pilots and to what level of training is up to him. The Japanese player must do several things.

He has to plan Operations based on his training numbers.
He has to supply his training programs. It costs supply to train pilots they don't train for free. They require aircraft to train and they require base support and space to train. They suffer loss while training. He does not simply pull them out of his hat.

The Japanese player has to adjust all his plans according to the number of pilots he has. He is limited by the number of groups ready for combat. he is limited by how long his groups can remain in combat. Pilots are not some minor detail that annoy him Pilots are a vital part of his conduct of the war.

Does everyone now understand that the pool is not the source for pilots? (It is a minor addition to help the player provide pilots to groups that are otherwise difficult to provide for.)
You have to train the pilots on map yourself. When you say the game provides too few you are revealing that you don't understand the set up because I know for a fact the game provides too many. Simply by suppling any trained pilots beyond what Japan had in the pool at start is too many. The Japanese player should in my opinion be required to train every single pilot he gets. (all groups should arrive on map with untrained pilots)

[crsutton]

Mommy, my head hurts![;)]

[SpitfireIX]

Original: Mogami

Does everyone now understand that the pool is not the source for pilots? (It is a minor addition to help the player provide pilots to groups that are otherwise difficult to provide for.)
You have to train the pilots on map yourself. When you say the game provides too few you are revealing that you don't understand the set up because I know for a fact the game provides too many. Simply by suppling any trained pilots beyond what Japan had in the pool at start is too many. The Japanese player should in my opinion be required to train every single pilot he gets. (all groups should arrive on map with untrained pilots)

Excellent explanation, Mogami. [&o] As someone who didn't participate in any of the testing, and who tends to play the Allies, it would have taken me quite a while to figure this one out on my own. BTW, does anyone know if the AI is programmed to train Japanese pilots?

[rogueusmc]

Highly improbable I would think.

[mogami]

Hi, Like the Japanese but unlike any human I have yet encountered the AI will disband groups in order to maintain others in fighting condition. The AI is more apt to disband front line groups or withdraw them back to safety and rebuild/train them. Humans want to leave the group at the front and still provide trained pilots without doing any actual training.
They wish to increase the size of the Japanese airforces, keep it all at the front in combat and have free trained pilots arriving by the bushel. (and put them all in nice new shiney aircraft produced by their massive aircraft industry)

In short they want to play Japan but not be Japan they want to be the USA.

[Hard Sarge]

LOL
Bite Me

sorry tiger, that post was not pointed at you, it started at a question to Caslug, and statement to Brady

if you disagree, that is fine, the testers have told you how and why the number is there, if you still disagree with the testers, that is still fine

my point was about people who only complain about one side of the game

and just in case, the 2nd line was meant as a joke

irrelevant
:):)

HARD_Sarge

Anti_Whine_Fanboy_Club

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Mogami
I think the big thing here is how most people "play" games

very, very few people ever think about reserves, or keeping troops back or in training, most see, that if I have 10000 troops, and a battle is about to start, well, Put 10000 troops into that battle

hassle is, in games in works, in real life it don't

I Mean, how many players will put 10-15 CV's into one TF and then sail it into combat, how many people put 25 PT's boats into a TF, then make 3 TF's and then when the turn runs there is combat, and the same player will complain that the PT's are over modelled

oh well
keep up the good fight

HARD_Sarge

[Brady]

Mogami, The reasion it is hard to arive at is while I can go through and list all the Navy Air Units,well fighter units anyway, I can not list all the army ones, though I could go get this book I have been meaning to buy...Also I could list all the piolets trained for the Navy by class, but this is a Huge undertaking while I love to transcribe stuff the game is so not anal on this point to begine with and feal that doing so is not going to realy help. WiTP does not creat air units for Japan they way their were created in real life particularly later in the war, so I dont see that the effort will do any good...let me mull on this till tomarow when I will have more time to deal with it.

"okay, well, which one is it ?, did they have 3000 trained pilots, or did they have 4000 trained pilots ? just a little bit of a fudge factor there "

Dont forget this does not include the Army piolets which outnumbered the navy.

"Brady, I disagree with your statements, your not sure how many should be there, if the game had come with 20 a month, you would complain, if it came with 100 a month, you would complain "

I hvae posted on this topic in much more detail in the past showing numbers which Mogami and others have sean many times, so you not seeing all that they have and in the interests of time I did not do that yet again hear, I will continue to complain about this point though, but your off in that no mater what I would complain.

"like your arguement about the Ki-100, being a good 2nd Gen plane, come on man, all your info, and you trying to say it was designed ?, I would think that would be the last plane you would bring up, since the only reason it was made, was the Ki-61 couldn't be, they had frames and wings, but no engines, so they added a engine that was laying around, and it worked out much better then they thought it would, and in fact turned out to be a pretty good plane, for a hybrd "

The question was I bealve could Japan produce a second generation plane that was reliable, this showed that they did, and while it was not designed from the get go to use the radial engine, the Army had before they were forced to switched presed them to adopt a diferent engine, and they did have to redesigne the airframe to except the new engine.

"the Franks and Georges turned out to be pretty good planes too, once they were brought back to the states and tested, once they got good fuel and got the right engine work done, they turned into monsters, but the pilots who fought them, didn't see them that way, and, the test pilots hated to fly them, they never knew if they would land (which I believe that was also a complaint on the Ki-100, weak landing gear, due to poor Heat treating)"

They were good planes before they were tested, the new fuel did not realy do that much to improve their preformance adding higher octane fuel to a plane designed to run on a lower grade generaly does not improve it's preformance to a signafagant degree. Their are many combat reports from units equiped with these planes shwoing that they did very well in the field and were well liked by themen who used them. Week langing gear did plauge the earler Ki-84, and the N1K1- but this problem was not just a Japanese one other countries suffered from the same issues, and the Japanese landing geaar issues were resloved on later modles.

"so, how many do you want, 10, 20, 100 ? keep asking, Mogami will just keep showing how if you plan and play the game right, you don't need them "

Mogami has shown an efective way remove 1/3 of the empires efective combate force from the field to efect a decent leval of piolet training.

"Japanese pilots. Japanese late war pilots flew less then 100 hours in training."


This is incorect, they begain training for CV's with 150 hours late in the war, prewar and early war was 300 to 500 hours before this hapened, source Imperial Japanese Naval Avaitor 1937 to 45.

[tigercub]

I don't take offence, but thanks any way.

I have only tried to point out what I believe is not right in the data. The powers that be have given us an editor so that we can make our own versions of history. I added my thoughts to this thread so that people would know what some people are doing in their games. I understand that Japan had a serious crisis with its pilots and plane production (and everything else production too) BUT I don't agree that it started as early as most folks on the forum seem to believe. But once again a player will have to go further than his historical counterpart to prevent the huge decline that Japan suffered in 1944. I don't mind having to train pilots to get them were they are needed and I know all Japanese players will be doing everything possible to teach their novice pilots and not throw them away prematurely.

Humans always want to maximise their efforts. There is plenty of room for the training faction to gather at one of the larger a/f with 250 air support. A thousand planes can be based here.

If all pilots needed to be trained by the player then new trainer types that are more durable than 22 would be needed for the hard landings. The natives could chop down the local trees so that there would be one less thing to crash into. And all planes could have a dingy in case of an emergency! (And a pig's head to throw to the shark so that a downed crew would have time to swim to the dingy).

I'll post further messages (if wanted) to let people know how the extra pilots have effected our game. (Or you might guess??!??)

tigercub