Just to kill the Pilot Pools too low thread

[Brady]

LOL

[pompack]

Simple solution (I'm serious Brady, this is not a flame)


Recommended changes:

1. Reduce the number of trained Japanese pilots to 0/month
2. Allow the Japanese to create unlimited numbers of "training sentai" (or create 30 or 40 empty sentai and stick them in the Homeland at start if that is an easier implementation)

A. Now the Japanese can train as many pilots per month as they like in "training sentai" without impacting their "front line" units.
B. The Japanese can use these "training sentai" in the front line or for rear area garrisons if they wish.
C. The Japanese can inject partially trained pilots into any unit if they choose

Note that the "training Sentai" are identical in all respects with the regular units. It's just how you (as the Japanese) choose to use them.

Disadvantages:
1. Allows the Japanese to create many more ASW units then they really did by using "training Sentai" on ASW missions (Um... sounds like a good idea)
2. Allows the Japanese unlimited pilots (but we have that now)

[Titanwarrior89]

The only thing I wonder about, is the kill ratio is too high. I have one pilot who has 47 kills. Is that the correct number or is that fog of war. [:D]

[Hard Sarge]

Tell me something
what is the complaint about, is it that the JP side only gets and the Allied side don't have to worry about it ? that it is not fair that one side has to suffer and the other doesn't have to worry about it ?



during combat, this was my best unit, it had to stay in the battle too long, and when it was finally pulled out, it had 10 planes and 14 pilots, pulled off ship and set to rest, this is how it is now fighting

HARD_Sarge

[Mr.Frag]

Did'd you know Sarge, it's ONLY ok if it's an Allied pilot problem [8|]

[Twotribes]

Yes I have noticed the majority of complaints are geared to aiding the Japanese. PT boats are bad.... Pilot replacements arent enough for the Japanese.... The 2nd Marine Division shouldnt be allowed in the game till late 42.......

[Nikademus]

Both sides of this argument have some valid points. Thats what makes the issue so thorny. Brady however (IMHO....no flame intended) hurts his case by repeatedly pointing to generalized estimated statistics on how many Japanese pilots "graduated" in total from the schools. This is all very nice (and similar info can be gleaned from Pettie and Bergerud) however it does not answer the simple question of "how well trained were they at graduation?"

There is no question in my mind nor disputing that the Japanese pilot program broke down under the strain of an attrition war and that as that war continued and shortages of fuel began to be felt, that the "graduation threshold" for the schools became lower and lower until by 44-45 a "graduate" would be lucky to have a dozen or more actual flight hours in the cockpit of a plane. (Besides the combat results....one can see this by the fact that by late war 'op losses/accidents' began exceeding 'combat losses' in the Japanese air force) US training hours declined as well....but never to the degree faced by the Japanese, and there was no shortage of fuel or front line aircraft to prevent those pilots from getting behind the cockpit for advanced training and familiarization. Often a 1944 Japanese graduates first real experience in a front line fighter aircraft was 'after' graduation, and there is a BIG difference between flying a trainer and flying a high preformance fighter plane (mentioned in Bergerud)

As early as late 1942, Japanese pilot veterans were commenting negatively on the quality of the replacements being seen. This viewpoint would appear cooberated by feedback from some USN marine/navy pilots as well who fought over Guadalcanal and the carriers. Sometimes they'd encounter a Zero pilot who instead of utilizing their machine to counter their attack moves, instead the pilot would "freeze"....a classic newbie mistake......one that especially in a Zero, bereft of armor or self sealers, might often become that newbie's last mistake. (Allied newbies were suspectible to the same thing of course....but had a better statistical chance of surviving)

Now the above needs considerable qualification. Does this mean that said replacement pilots being referred to too with critisism by both sides of the fence are half trained exp 20-30 pilots? Maybe....but personally i think it probably refers to a greenie with more or less complete basic training who simply had not had time to become more proficient in a front line unit. In the Japanese viewpoint especially i can see the disproval given the strictness of the pre-war program. At the very least....graduates of that program would probably not, in game terms come out of training with anything less than exp=70....some of the more giftd at 75-80. Combined with rigorous operational level training and combat....you get to exp=85 and above....elite pilots. The comments on the Japanese side come mainly from this crop of "graduates"....and so IMO...its inevitable that they would view the wartime "graduates" with a little bit of disdain (not to mention worry since their own survival may depend on those men)

A similar conclusion can be made from the Allied side. They too had their share of "newbie" experiences that of itself doesnt' mean the pilot in question who got his tail peppered by a Zero (but lived to tell of it) was a half trained exp=30 pilot who espeically under Allied doctrine...would have NO business being on the front lines to begin with. An exp 50 or 55 pilot is just as likely to make a newbie mistake. I've always said this many times in the past having been playing Grigsby games since the 1980's.....the 0-99 exp scale has been around for a LONG time and exp 50-55 has almost universally been considered a "fully trained but wet behind the ears" level. Once you get to the upper tier of values you progress from extremely well trained...(60-65) to "veteran (70+) to elite (80-85+) Anything in the 90's is truely elite (and all but irreplaceable in this game)

Same token.....going into the lower tier....you get progressively more incomplete or inadequate levels of training. 20-30 in my mind is at best...half trained (in terms of basic flight training) and yes....that pilot under normal circumstances has no business being on the front lines. The Allies were never in a position to have to do this....but the Japanese increasingly were. Marianas is in my mind a prime example. Yes the Japanese were still bound to lose given the numbers they faced and the fact that they were outclassed in the air and facing record levels of AA......but it was the incomplete and inadequate training levels that made it a "Turkey Shoot". I think the pilot accounts....particular that of many Japanese pilots taking everything they had just to maintain formation much less fight speaks for itself.

Ok....enough of a novel for everyone....? still with me? [;)]

Here's where it gets more tricky.

WitP is an operational level game that allows both sides complete control of their frontline units. Mogami and Frag make valid points that if you dont want half trained pilots on the front lines, that it is *up to the player* to make sure this happens. He or she does that by rotating his airgroups and not simply committing everything to the theater or theaters of action. Even the Allies cant get away with that. Thats what the training mission is in the game for and people need to remember that this game runs in *****24 hour turns******* Things like that take time. Even under wartime abbreviation....the USN pilot program tended to take Joe Pilotwannabee a full 6 months at a miminum to bring them fully trained status (exp 50-60)

Now....on the other side of the argument.....a valid point has been made that players cant control *where* their precious small crop of fully trained or (in the IJN case) really really well trained pilots go (if you compare the starting exp level with the JAAF rating) The most recent patch has provided a partial solution to this problem by allowing the player to far more easily control which air units get any replacements at all. Yes it does require a bit more of a micromanagement but thats the price paid for the level of control that this game awards us with. If a player wants to maximize where his pilots (and planes for those types not avail in huge quantities) the best tactic is to set most/all of his airgroups to "do not accept replacements"....particularily those on active fronts. If a unit becomes depleated after repeated sorties/combats...you have two choices...set to "accept replacements" and risk getting unfinished pilots (or using up your pool of ready pilots) while still at the "Front" or, as was more common in historical practice...you rotate that group out and refit/reorg it, allowing time to integrate the new pilots into the org. This is what Japanese carrier divisions had to do after heavy combat.

Some players have complained about "pace" in this game. Tactics such as setting most/all one's airgroups to 'accept replacements' is part of the reason why IMO. In real life....few airgroups (and this was certainly the case in the SoPac) had their full OOB's. In the game it is all too convienient to just set your active units to accept replacements and let the computer auto fill your combat units. It makes for a nice picture......till you start examining the pilot roster and see that you've diluted your well oiled machine with newbie pilots at under exp 50. Such a pace is not something the Japanese machine in particular is not going to be able to sustain long...at least not without sending children out to fight. Here Frag is 100% correct in that there is no real limit on the overall "pilot pool". Neither side will ever suffer for lack of pilots. What they will suffer....and player choice has a big impact here is in the quality of those pilots.

However if players were more caring of their airgroups and become more 'miserly', not overcommitting and overspending them....this will at least in part reduce the "problem" as it is perceived. I've been playing around with this in a 1942 start scenerio (post Midway) and to a degree it is working well. However a big component of my success is that i'm not being forced to commit to an attrition war with the AI as Allied and i ***take breaks**** i.e. just because i whipped AI butt doesnt' mean i immediately go on to the next offensive just because i can. My carrier groups were not decimated for example, but they did take some losses. Right now i have them at Truk.....accepted replacements and am now setting them to "Training" to bring up those half trained wannabees to at least full proficiancy (exp 50+) More a less a stunted Mogami pilot training type program. More often that not...players with godlike control tend to overflow front line bases with combat airgroups and commit themselves to offensive operations that dwarve the actual numbers employed during that year historically. Under such circumstances, esp if your the Japanese player...i would expect the exp curve to fall even faster.

Now, in support of Brady and co., I found though that even here its almost impossible to prevent those half trained pilots from creeping into many Japanese units that i authorized to accept replacements. (and just to throw some oil on the controversey.....i experimented in this game by messing with the replacement rates and pools [:D] ) So we come at last back to the central issue. How soon should pilots, particularily Japanese pilots come in at what i myself consider a 1944 level of "graduation" (ie. exp 20-30 congrats your a pilot...now go get em tiger!) Increasing the production rate is not necesarily an answer to me....because that pool has it's exp level fixed (within up to +/-9 points) and for the IJN its rather high and generous. the IJAAF is of less concern as "graduated" pilots are in the fully green catagory (55). A system i would prefer would be a variable "general pilot replacement level based on year....the same as that which governs airgroup reinforcements.

example:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 40
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20 (banzai!!!!!!!!!!)

all the above has the same (+/-) variable of up to 9 exp points as in the current system.

Under such a system...the "high value graduate" pool for want of a better term (and terminology is another thing that is causing this rift of opinion....that and misinterpretation what what the pilot pool in this game is) by definition cannot be too high because it is fixed and in some cases (USN and IJN) it spits out very highly qualified aviators so under this definition, increasing the "high value graduate" pool to say 100 a month or more would only produce ahistorical results...particularily for the Japanese.

Anyway thats my take. I can understand the frustration of Japan players who see their precious small pool of pilots go out to fill out or replace a Topsy transport datai back in Saigon but at the same time....thanks to the latest patch, its fairly painless to prevent this from happening by paying close attention too and controlling who gets replacements and when and where. Under the current system, it may be that at the very least we should increase the starting pool.... but not the *rate* in order to better represent the Japanese "curve" that decended from pre-war elite down to competant, down to competant but somewhat wet behind the ears, finally decending to "yippie i took off without cracking up!" Even then the Japanese player will still have to micromanage to ensure that this pool isn't too quickly depleated by trying to do everything at once...(fill out existing units.....conduct offensives....replace losses during said offensives) This dilemmna is nothing short of historical in my mind. However in this i'd agree with Brady that the decline as seen should not be so quick, but with the cavet that this is so heavily influenced by *player strategy* and in that i agree with Frag and Mogami's viewpoint.

Gee....how's that for sitting on both sides of the fence. Maybe i should run for Pres of the US [;)]

[Hard Sarge]

just as a update on that unit, when it was pulled out, it was around a 89 exp, once it got it's new pilots it was down to 53, now after 2/3 days of action, it is a 62

all of those 50 and unders, were 20's to start with

just so people know, it does work both ways

HARD_Sarge

[pasternakski]

My magnum opus:

Leave it alone. Play the game.

[SpitfireIX]

Although I think the system for the Japanese is fairly close to historical, and doesn't need any sort of "fixing," I have been wondering one thing about Allied pilot replacements. Historically the US (not sure about other Allied powers) rotated experienced pilots home to become instructors--that's why America is able to crank out such a large number of well-trained pilots during the second half of the war. Is this rotation modeled at all in the game? I suspect it isn't, and I imagine that gives the US an ahistorical advantage.

[Mr.Frag]

Is this rotation modeled at all in the game?

Yes, it is in the game.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Yes, it is in the game.

Nice job of killing the "pilot pools are too low thread," Frag.

[SpitfireIX]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Is this rotation modeled at all in the game?

Yes, it is in the game.

How does it work? Are experienced pilots simply abducted by extraterrestrials every so often? [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, Allied pilots are removed from airgroups after a certain number of missions. However not every time a pilot flies is counted toward his mission total. Withdrawn Allied pilots may return later.

I have been hitting Brady over the head for many months to no avail.
He still thinks the so called "Mogami method" is some kind of work around.

It is the training system for the Japanese. The pilot pools are not the training system they are only a minor part of it.

The complete Japanese (or Allied) training system looks like this.

Airgroups arrive with trained pilots
Small amount of pilots added to pool
Pilots are trained in groups on map. This on map training is the major means of producing trained pilots. I still cannot inderstand why people can't grasp this. Along with the arriving pilots and pool pilots you have to add the ones you train yourself to get the total number of pilots Japan is training.

Japan does not have
Enough modern aircraft to equip every group. Train the groups in older aircraft.
Enough PP to move every group from restricted HQ Train the restricted HQ groups
Enough space at advanced bases after a few weeks of the war. train the groups at rear bases.

You have to disband a few groups and fill them with untrained pilots. The sooner you place a group in the reinforcement track the sooner you begin training pilots.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Both sides of this argument have some valid points. Thats what makes the issue so thorny. Brady however (IMHO....no flame intended) hurts his case by repeatedly pointing to generalized estimated statistics on how many Japanese pilots "graduated" in total from the schools. This is all very nice (and similar info can be gleaned from Pettie and Bergerud) however it does not answer the simple question of "how well trained were they at graduation?"

There is no question in my mind nor disputing that the Japanese pilot program broke down under the strain of an attrition war and that as that war continued and shortages of fuel began to be felt, that the "graduation threshold" for the schools became lower and lower until by 44-45 a "graduate" would be lucky to have a dozen or more actual flight hours in the cockpit of a plane. (Besides the combat results....one can see this by the fact that by late war 'op losses/accidents' began exceeding 'combat losses' in the Japanese air force) US training hours declined as well....but never to the degree faced by the Japanese, and there was no shortage of fuel or front line aircraft to prevent those pilots from getting behind the cockpit for advanced training and familiarization. Often a 1944 Japanese graduates first real experience in a front line fighter aircraft was 'after' graduation, and there is a BIG difference between flying a trainer and flying a high preformance fighter plane (mentioned in Bergerud)

As early as late 1942, Japanese pilot veterans were commenting negatively on the quality of the replacements being seen. This viewpoint would appear cooberated by feedback from some USN marine/navy pilots as well who fought over Guadalcanal and the carriers. Sometimes they'd encounter a Zero pilot who instead of utilizing their machine to counter their attack moves, instead the pilot would "freeze"....a classic newbie mistake......one that especially in a Zero, bereft of armor or self sealers, might often become that newbie's last mistake. (Allied newbies were suspectible to the same thing of course....but had a better statistical chance of surviving)

Now the above needs considerable qualification. Does this mean that said replacement pilots being referred to too with critisism by both sides of the fence are half trained exp 20-30 pilots? Maybe....but personally i think it probably refers to a greenie with more or less complete basic training who simply had not had time to become more proficient in a front line unit. In the Japanese viewpoint especially i can see the disproval given the strictness of the pre-war program. At the very least....graduates of that program would probably not, in game terms come out of training with anything less than exp=70....some of the more giftd at 75-80. Combined with rigorous operational level training and combat....you get to exp=85 and above....elite pilots. The comments on the Japanese side come mainly from this crop of "graduates"....and so IMO...its inevitable that they would view the wartime "graduates" with a little bit of disdain (not to mention worry since their own survival may depend on those men)

A similar conclusion can be made from the Allied side. They too had their share of "newbie" experiences that of itself doesnt' mean the pilot in question who got his tail peppered by a Zero (but lived to tell of it) was a half trained exp=30 pilot who espeically under Allied doctrine...would have NO business being on the front lines to begin with. An exp 50 or 55 pilot is just as likely to make a newbie mistake. I've always said this many times in the past having been playing Grigsby games since the 1980's.....the 0-99 exp scale has been around for a LONG time and exp 50-55 has almost universally been considered a "fully trained but wet behind the ears" level. Once you get to the upper tier of values you progress from extremely well trained...(60-65) to "veteran (70+) to elite (80-85+) Anything in the 90's is truely elite (and all but irreplaceable in this game)

Same token.....going into the lower tier....you get progressively more incomplete or inadequate levels of training. 20-30 in my mind is at best...half trained (in terms of basic flight training) and yes....that pilot under normal circumstances has no business being on the front lines. The Allies were never in a position to have to do this....but the Japanese increasingly were. Marianas is in my mind a prime example. Yes the Japanese were still bound to lose given the numbers they faced and the fact that they were outclassed in the air and facing record levels of AA......but it was the incomplete and inadequate training levels that made it a "Turkey Shoot". I think the pilot accounts....particular that of many Japanese pilots taking everything they had just to maintain formation much less fight speaks for itself.

Ok....enough of a novel for everyone....? still with me? [;)]

Here's where it gets more tricky.

WitP is an operational level game that allows both sides complete control of their frontline units. Mogami and Frag make valid points that if you dont want half trained pilots on the front lines, that it is *up to the player* to make sure this happens. He or she does that by rotating his airgroups and not simply committing everything to the theater or theaters of action. Even the Allies cant get away with that. Thats what the training mission is in the game for and people need to remember that this game runs in *****24 hour turns******* Things like that take time. Even under wartime abbreviation....the USN pilot program tended to take Joe Pilotwannabee a full 6 months at a miminum to bring them fully trained status (exp 50-60)

Now....on the other side of the argument.....a valid point has been made that players cant control *where* their precious small crop of fully trained or (in the IJN case) really really well trained pilots go (if you compare the starting exp level with the JAAF rating) The most recent patch has provided a partial solution to this problem by allowing the player to far more easily control which air units get any replacements at all. Yes it does require a bit more of a micromanagement but thats the price paid for the level of control that this game awards us with. If a player wants to maximize where his pilots (and planes for those types not avail in huge quantities) the best tactic is to set most/all of his airgroups to "do not accept replacements"....particularily those on active fronts. If a unit becomes depleated after repeated sorties/combats...you have two choices...set to "accept replacements" and risk getting unfinished pilots (or using up your pool of ready pilots) while still at the "Front" or, as was more common in historical practice...you rotate that group out and refit/reorg it, allowing time to integrate the new pilots into the org. This is what Japanese carrier divisions had to do after heavy combat.

Some players have complained about "pace" in this game. Tactics such as setting most/all one's airgroups to 'accept replacements' is part of the reason why IMO. In real life....few airgroups (and this was certainly the case in the SoPac) had their full OOB's. In the game it is all too convienient to just set your active units to accept replacements and let the computer auto fill your combat units. It makes for a nice picture......till you start examining the pilot roster and see that you've diluted your well oiled machine with newbie pilots at under exp 50. Such a pace is not something the Japanese machine in particular is not going to be able to sustain long...at least not without sending children out to fight. Here Frag is 100% correct in that there is no real limit on the overall "pilot pool". Neither side will ever suffer for lack of pilots. What they will suffer....and player choice has a big impact here is in the quality of those pilots.

However if players were more caring of their airgroups and become more 'miserly', not overcommitting and overspending them....this will at least in part reduce the "problem" as it is perceived. I've been playing around with this in a 1942 start scenerio (post Midway) and to a degree it is working well. However a big component of my success is that i'm not being forced to commit to an attrition war with the AI as Allied and i ***take breaks**** i.e. just because i whipped AI butt doesnt' mean i immediately go on to the next offensive just because i can. My carrier groups were not decimated for example, but they did take some losses. Right now i have them at Truk.....accepted replacements and am now setting them to "Training" to bring up those half trained wannabees to at least full proficiancy (exp 50+) More a less a stunted Mogami pilot training type program. More often that not...players with godlike control tend to overflow front line bases with combat airgroups and commit themselves to offensive operations that dwarve the actual numbers employed during that year historically. Under such circumstances, esp if your the Japanese player...i would expect the exp curve to fall even faster.

Now, in support of Brady and co., I found though that even here its almost impossible to prevent those half trained pilots from creeping into many Japanese units that i authorized to accept replacements. (and just to throw some oil on the controversey.....i experimented in this game by messing with the replacement rates and pools [:D] ) So we come at last back to the central issue. How soon should pilots, particularily Japanese pilots come in at what i myself consider a 1944 level of "graduation" (ie. exp 20-30 congrats your a pilot...now go get em tiger!) Increasing the production rate is not necesarily an answer to me....because that pool has it's exp level fixed (within up to +/-9 points) and for the IJN its rather high and generous. the IJAAF is of less concern as "graduated" pilots are in the fully green catagory (55). A system i would prefer would be a variable "general pilot replacement level based on year....the same as that which governs airgroup reinforcements.

example:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 40
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20 (banzai!!!!!!!!!!)

all the above has the same (+/-) variable of up to 9 exp points as in the current system.

Under such a system...the "high value graduate" pool for want of a better term (and terminology is another thing that is causing this rift of opinion....that and misinterpretation what what the pilot pool in this game is) by definition cannot be too high because it is fixed and in some cases (USN and IJN) it spits out very highly qualified aviators so under this definition, increasing the "high value graduate" pool to say 100 a month or more would only produce ahistorical results...particularily for the Japanese.

Anyway thats my take. I can understand the frustration of Japan players who see their precious small pool of pilots go out to fill out or replace a Topsy transport datai back in Saigon but at the same time....thanks to the latest patch, its fairly painless to prevent this from happening by paying close attention too and controlling who gets replacements and when and where. Under the current system, it may be that at the very least we should increase the starting pool.... but not the *rate* in order to better represent the Japanese "curve" that decended from pre-war elite down to competant, down to competant but somewhat wet behind the ears, finally decending to "yippie i took off without cracking up!" Even then the Japanese player will still have to micromanage to ensure that this pool isn't too quickly depleated by trying to do everything at once...(fill out existing units.....conduct offensives....replace losses during said offensives) This dilemmna is nothing short of historical in my mind. However in this i'd agree with Brady that the decline as seen should not be so quick, but with the cavet that this is so heavily influenced by *player strategy* and in that i agree with Frag and Mogami's viewpoint.

Gee....how's that for sitting on both sides of the fence. Maybe i should run for Pres of the US [;)]

Nice (long) post which I did read throughoutfully - thanks! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Brady]

"Thats what makes the issue so thorny. Brady however (IMHO....no flame intended) hurts his case by repeatedly pointing to generalized estimated statistics on how many Japanese pilots "graduated" in total from the schools"

Yes I would agre with this and I was forever frustrated by the generalised nature of my sources while they pointed to what certainly was a larger force than normaly preceaved in the West I had no concreat figures to draw on,that is a difinative total, even the huge listings of individual clases were vague. This is why when at first presed by Mogami on this I was hesistant to delve into this deaper since I was not going to get anywhear...then I saw one concreat Number I could make some use of...the dead...at anyrate the thing had been staring me in the face yet I did not see it as usefull all these many months. While my sources state clearly that up to 44 the system was turning out what they considered:

"The Leveal of piolet skill remained High throught most of 1943"

From the Book the Imperial Japanese Naval Avaitor 1937-45.

So to this end I would agree that what Nikademus mentiones hear:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 40
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20

Is a decent start, though I would sugest a slightly higer 42 figure since many of thse were indead graduates of the prewar programe, and that the programe in mid 43 was not all that diferent in terms of actualy piolet training, but rather light on the extras, that is the non piolet skill relater schooling that was so heavy in the prewar classes, my counter would lokk like this:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 60
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20

By all acounts the training was about half in 44 of what it had been in 43, 150 hours for flight training before CV training begane in 44 as aposed to about 300 in 43. In 45 virtualy no flight training was being conducted. What is interesting is that this of course is tied directly to the ecenomy up to a point, while it is arguable that if the Japanese are doing well in this regard late in the war thier non ready pool and indead the ready pool shoul dhvae a higher leveal of traing just how to effect this would apear problamatic, the system asumes Japan will be hurting as it did historicaly.

................................................


"He still thinks the so called "Mogami method" is some kind of work around"

It is, your premis:

"Pilots are trained in groups on map. "

Is not realy a sound one,as near as I can tell the groups arive on map about the same time the units they atemept to represent did for operations. That is the part of their work up is not part of the game system. In real life a groupe would be formed sit around the airfield at home or whearever they were formed and piolets would gater and the unit would work up to readyness, then they were prounaced as so and deployed. In the game we see them at this point, the deployed/deployable condation, we should not have to dick around with training on map to the degree that it is represented in the game at present, or rather the degree that requires us to remove about 1/3 of our force strength to acheave a reasionable leveal of traing.

[mogami]

Hi, Brady Realisticly all training should take place on map. To make it easier to understand I suggest we form Daitai and Sentai with the word "Training" in their name.
Enough to begin training a group of what ever type the player wants per month. It would be work to keep track of but it would be very accurate because it would consume supply and the number of pilots and the level they attained would be up to the player.
To make this system completly effective we would require code so the player could access his training units and click on pilot. "go to pool" There would be 2 pools. The unlimited untrained pool and the trained pool. Each airgroup would have "replace trained" or replace "untrained" If this code is not possible then we can still make a very effective system using just "training" groups. For best ease of use a size 18 that can form 3x size 6 groups would work.
I think however the Japanese player will still find that he is unable to provide trained pilots to 100 percent of his non training groups. (meaning in the end he will be training no more pilots then if he used the current so called "Mogami Method" that the game is designed to use. The reason for this is simply the amounts of supply required to train large numbers of pilots. Of course he will be able to train more early in the war. But during this period the game already provides a surplus of trained pilots if the Japanese player can only force himself to admit he cannot place every group at the front and still maintain them.

In short in WITP all training by Japan takes place on map with the addition of his groups arrive already trained and a small number of pilots are added to his pool for use in groups where it is not feasable to train pilots. (groups with less then 9 pilots as normal size. As in floatplanes on ships/submarines) Stop thinking of the pools as entire Japanese pilot training.
You have to add them to get the true total of pilots you are training but it is only a very small portion of the over all training program. A program you decide the size of and you decide the finished ratings. All through the war the "Top" rating a pilot can attain by on map training remains the same. Only the free pilots have a yearly rating and there is nothing to prevent you from training these pilots further once they are on map. (except supply and stubborness) All methods of obtaining trained pilots are a part of the historic Japanese training. However the on map portion remains the part that will train the majority of pilots in the game. The on map training is "The Japanese Pilots Training Program" not a work around.

[Mike Scholl]

MOGAMI Your patience is legendary, and BRADY's stubbornness is monumental. It
is truely a shame that the game did not offer a Pilot Training sub-routine for the Japs.
Someplace where Brady could pour his thousands of Experiance Level 10 "piolets"
and wait for them to get better. Then it sould have also included this program's
demand for oil and supply and aircraft and experianced pilot instructors and other
resources in amounts that would crimp other war production. "You CAN have better
trained pilots..., but you don't get late-war A/C and ships" (resources diverted to the
pilot training programs.) Too bad all the way around. Might have saved you this
"never-ending story" of discussion with Brady.

[freeboy]

It is exactly the shackles on the Jap production, resource managment (and oil fuel) pilot/plane production that is modeled that correctly models the war. JApan could have better used her resources in hindsight. She could have built better planes and trained more pilots. She could have taken the steps to unify the armed forces, granted with alot off head chopping. JApan could have added asw and convoys to importance after witnessing the German Atlantic successes. All these in HINDSIGHT are possible, but the game designer want to make a model of a long day by day war where JApan player faces the same historical challenges, declining relative quality and quantity.

It is this exact issue of declining quality and quantity that those what if proponents want to change... And due to the fundemental preceipt I see from the designer this will never officially be changed... my guess.

[Brady]

"Hi, Brady Realisticly all training should take place on map."

Why? This aspect of the Japanese War machine is compleatly abstracted, for all branches of the service, Land, Sea, and Air(LCU's,Ships,Planes). How for example would you aproach the huge increase in training facalitys that was undertaken during the war by Japan for her piolets? Or are you simply sugesting the building of training plane types and then transfering these piolets to the pool once the player chuses to do so. This at face value seams a bit to labor intensive, you would nead to be able to build prety much as many training planes as you wanted to do this, and to creat a variable number of traing squadrons, somthing the game does not alow for, also the system would nead to be scaled to alow for the extra suply and resources neaded to suport this, which it is not at present, remember the whole Japanese ecenmoy is not represented, nore is the industrial capaciy that created the training planes at present...So all this just to represent better somthing WiTP has wrong at present??? Something that could be easly fixed simply by doing as Nikademus sugests increasing the training leval of the pool piolets...though even this is not perfect since it is not scaleable insomuch as the war situation is concerned, so in this regard the other system would be better the more complex, time consuming and worysome one sugested above.


What we have hear is a recuring debate regarding the preception of what occured during the war with the Japanese Piolet training. Nikademus did a fairly good job of explaing how the preceptions of those in the field have come to filter down to us hear in the present regarding the piolets and the skill levals. Also we are dealing with the fact that many are defending the things they have come to except as the way it was, when presented with contradictory evidance the common...denyal phase...insues and can last a long time and in some cases never realy pass into understanding and exceptance...this is why WiTP has this so wrong imo for Japan at present, though it apears that this may be begining to change. I do recgonise that my poor spelling and gramerical skills do effect some folks abaility to fully grasp many of the points I try and make, and I do sincerly appricate the efforts by those who take the time to wade through them to reach some understanding of what it is I am trying to say.