witp patch

[scout1]

I have to say its refreshing that a gaming Co. actually is willing to discuss a feature
that will go into an upcoming patch. Others treat it as a trade secret for some reason that has always escaped me.

I regularly surf the WITP Wishlist. If I may oversimplify, of all the various suggestions, I believe they fall into four categories.

1) User Interface/Information Flow (Presentation)
2) Game Play
3) Map Enhancements
4) Other (aka, everything else)

Given the depth and scope of this game, it can and will take a long time to play. That's both good and bad (mostly good though). However, I think part of the bad can be mitigated by many of the suggested improvements concerning in the first category.
Navigating the information flow would greatly reduce the "cycle time" of the frustrating part of the game and permit more time to the fun part (thinking and planning).
So, all that being said, has/is/will MatrixGames post a listing of the features likely to be introduced in the next patch. This doesn't have to be a definitive list/cast in stone. Wouldn't trust it anyway, things happen. But could be broken down into listings of

a) Probable incorporation
b) Want too, but may/may not make this cut
c) Want too, but won't make this cut
d) Back burner (haven't decided)

See I didn't ask to hard question which nobody is willing answer (When ??????????)
Because I already know the answer ...... It depends !

[Mr.Frag]

Sorry, not going to happen. We are not even permitted to discuss things that *may* happen under then NDA agreement we live with. Too many things can happen between now and then that will completely change the outcome.

All you'll ever see is "thats fixed now" and even saying that is risky as while it may be fixed in the current test version, there is nothing to say it will not be broken again in the next test version which means you now think something is "fixed" that is not.

The same with "when". No dates ever. All you'll ever get is "It is being worked on". If you don't "expect" anything, you can't be disappointed when you don't "get" anything. If you are "expecting" things and don't "get" them, this place turns into real ugliness.

[pasternakski]

Hey, Frag ... I think the cat's starting to get the upper hand on the mouse. How long do you think it will be before he smashes him one last time and he never gets back up?

[scout1]

Mr. Frag,

This is exactly the point I was making. Gaming Co's keep their cards way too close to their chest. This is a classic example. I didn't ask what will definately be going into the next patch. Only the things being considered. The only absolute would be those things that aren't going into the next patch .... Those things that aren't even being looked at. Don't get me wrong, the information that has been discussed is very refreshing in this industry.
Unfortunately, this is but a light breeze vs the wind storm of information.
I'm curious as to the rationale. I can't see it being competition sensitve. Not like there's another game out there competing with WITP which could benefit from this type of information. Now the 3D shoot'em game types would be another story. Alot of competion, alot of trying to distinguish ones self in the crowd.

Frankly, this is one kick ass game that is very deep. Like anything with this much depth, information flow and manipulation is everything. Years ago, the aerospace industry introduced electronincs. It had so much potential and the pilot would now have instant access to all kinds of data. Well guess what, the very first compliant was that the pilot was being overwhelmed with too much information. Pretty soon, the pilot was being fed
a) critical at hand info
b) summary/cusory elsewhere and most importantly,
c) the pilot could re-configure how the information was provided.

Obviously, I have a pet peeve concerning the manner in which information is provided. Personally, if this game has a weakness, this is it. And, frankly, should be the easiest to implement/change. Doesn't impact the AI, just the front end/human interface stuff.

[Mr.Frag]

Twice now, you have seen huge threads develop because people seem to think that if they bitch and whine and rant and rave enough, they will get whatever they are screaming about. Think how bad it would be if you saw posted that your top 30 issues are not being given a second thought. Now remember that *your* top 30 are different from everyone elses top 30.

On one hand, people complain that they have to restart games due to bugs. On the other hand, they scream about adding features which means bugs not getting fixed. You guys choose your own poison (not aimed at you personally) by demanding features instead of bug fixes.

The end road to this will eventually be lots of features and the same old bugs let in because there was not time or money to fix them. I want a bug free game so I can invest 3 years of my life into playing it against someone. I don't care about extra toys as long as there are bugs. Whats the point of a new feature when you can't play the game?

Folks really need to ask themselves what they want. It is an A or B choice. It is unlikely that 2BY3 can continue to crank out new stuff forever for free. Bugs or Toys?

Cast your vote but think seriously about it.

[samuraigg]

Twice now, you have seen huge threads develop because people seem to think that if they bitch and whine and rant and rave enough, they will get whatever they are screaming about.

Nice way to talk about a legitimate concern and request from the community.

[scout1]

Mr Frag,

I understand the frustration. There are 500+ plus people on the Mtrix forum everyday. Some persentage is on WITP. Everybody has an idea (or more than one). Heck, the Wish list has a huge number of postings. So yes, there are 5 gazillion different, "sir may I have another ?" But this forum is a very good means to voice these. Does it mean any will be heard, no. But silence (from the industry) basically means they aren't willing to even share where they are going.

I agree with you completely about bug fixes. I don't want a buggy game that has no replay value because of these issues. I also don't want a game that got the hard part right and fumbled on the easier part.

I may be way off base, feel free to stump on me, but I don't think this game has any "serious" bugs. Do I want to see as many of the current bugs fixed, absolutely.
Will 2 by 3 indefinately support everything, no. But I still don't see why its not reasonably to say what is being considered or not. No trade secret here. If I don't get me concerns addressed ?

a) I grip on the forum forever, but soon all will no that it's not worth reading
b) I accept fate and continue gaming
c) I go play in somebodies else's sandbox (like there are many left).

[RalfBHV]

The end road to this will eventually be lots of features and the same old bugs let in because there was not time or money to fix them. I want a bug free game so I can invest 3 years of my life into playing it against someone. I don't care about extra toys as long as there are bugs. Whats the point of a new feature when you can't play the game?

Hello,

i, and many forum-user too, want a bug free game too. But a little information about the patch, will help to make the scream silent.

Nessaja

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Nessaja
But a little information about the patch, will help to make the scream silent.

Nessaja

Sorry, this painting was stolen last week.

[doktorblood]

Users have the child-like habit of interpreting proposed changes and fixes as promises. The devs are better off not saying anything because if a certain change doesn't work out there won't be users claiming that they broke a promise that the devs never really made.

[scout1]

I don't agree, or if I did, then my advise is to publically state that there will be NO updates/patches at all. Then surprise the community later. Otherwise, this is nothing more than telling your child that you have a surprise for him/her but refuse their repeated requests as to what it is.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

Users have the child-like habit of interpreting proposed changes and fixes as promises. The devs are better off not saying anything because if a certain change doesn't work out there won't be users claiming that they broke a promise that the devs never really made.

I agree completely. And I dig a pygmy.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Twice now, you have seen huge threads develop because people seem to think that if they bitch and whine and rant and rave enough, they will get whatever they are screaming about. Think how bad it would be if you saw posted that your top 30 issues are not being given a second thought. Now remember that *your* top 30 are different from everyone elses top 30.

Funny, I thought many had trumpeted 2by3 as one of the rare companies that listen to their customers. If you describe those customers voices as whining and ranting, how exactly are you helping promote 2by3's reputation?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
If you describe those customers voices as whining and ranting ...

I always listened to my pre-adolescent children - until they started whining and ranting.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
If you describe those customers voices as whining and ranting ...

I always listened to my pre-adolescent children - until they started whining and ranting.

That's fine for you, as their Father you're responsible for them. Posters here don't have a financial stake in 2By3 or Matrix, are not responsible for them, and should not be in a position to potentialy insult those customers, or call their posts whining.

From reading threads in here it's obvious that there are some very obnoxious posters complaining about the game. I don't think anyone needs it pointed out who they are as it's quite simple to ignore them. But speaking about whining and ranting, simply because of forum disagreements does more harm than good IMHO.

[David Heath]

Guys

Both Joel and myself have had customers whine and rant, this is not to say everyone does. This bottom line is we (Matrix & 2by3 Games) will not give any advance list on anything. We of course will take suggestions and get in the ones that are possible and/or make sense to us. When we release a patch we will state which items were fixed or enchancements.

I did see a thread asking about know bug list. We have a list of items we are working on. We can not confirm which are bugs or not until the programmers review the list, check the code and/or save files. If it a bug we always try to fix it and those changes are put into the next patch.

We are very happy to hear from each and everyone of you and as you know we are always looking to improve our games.

David

[freeboy]

Joel and David,
Thanks for putting up with us when we are less than we could be as your client/customers... your two companies are THE BEST !!!

[von Murrin]

Well, anyone using Bill the Cat and Opus for an avatar must have their head screwed on properly by definition.[:'(]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
If you describe those customers voices as whining and ranting ...

I always listened to my pre-adolescent children - until they started whining and ranting.

That's fine for you, as their Father you're responsible for them. Posters here don't have a financial stake in 2By3 or Matrix, are not responsible for them, and should not be in a position to potentialy insult those customers, or call their posts whining.

From reading threads in here it's obvious that there are some very obnoxious posters complaining about the game. I don't think anyone needs it pointed out who they are as it's quite simple to ignore them. But speaking about whining and ranting, simply because of forum disagreements does more harm than good IMHO.

You might want to remember that Frag does not speak for Matrix/2by3. He has disclaimed that over and over again. As for my post, I thought maybe a bit of levity might lighten the mood here somewhat.

In any event, my position is that posters on these forums ought to be seeking improvement in the game by pointing out possible bugs, glitches in game execution, and possible errors in presentation of unit capabilities. Most do, and I am sure that Matrix/2by3 are thankful for that.

When, however, it comes to advocacy of major redesign or alteration of the OB for the selfish purpose of turning the game into something that is satisfactory to only one person or a small segment of the customer base, there's something else afoot, and it needs to be pointed out. I have never characterized posters here as "whining and ranting," but I can see why those with a bona fide interest in preserving the integrity of the game and keeping it true to the design intentions that formed its foundation in the first place would be tempted to do so.

In any event, here's my final whine and rant: "Just play the game."

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Guys

Both Joel and myself have had customers whine and rant, this is not to say everyone does. This bottom line is we (Matrix & 2by3 Games) will not give any advance list on anything. We of course will take suggestions and get in the ones that are possible and/or make sense to us. When we release a patch we will state which items were fixed or enchancements.

I did see a thread asking about know bug list. We have a list of items we are working on. We can not confirm which are bugs or not until the programmers review the list, check the code and/or save files. If it a bug we always try to fix it and those changes are put into the next patch.

We are very happy to hear from each and everyone of you and as you know we are always looking to improve our games.

David

Gentlemen. I understand the points you and Frag are trying to make. But you fellows
need to understand some things as well. It is Human Nature to beleive that "the squeek-
ing wheel WILL get some grease". And that in the absense of DEFINATELY NOT, most
people today assume that (at least where there desires are concerned) the answer is
"probably yes". Maybe it's a holdover effect of the "ME Generation", but most folks seem
to suffer under the illusion that they are important, worthwhile, and deserving of consi-
deration.

You could save yourselves a LOT of headaches if you posted a couple of files of informa-
tion. one would be something on the order of:
1) GOOD IDEAS THAT ARE SIMPLY CANNOT BE INCORPORATED IN THE GAME BECAUSE
OF CODING RESTRICTIONS. (trying to deal with them impacts so many other things
that it would take an entire new wave of ALPHA and BETA testing just to try and get them
into acceptable shape. If anyone wants to send us a check for $100,000 to cover the
"have to redesign half the game costs for one of these", we'll re-consider).
2) THE DESIGN TEAM SIMPLY DOES NOT FEEL THAT THIS ISSUE IS WORTHWHILE OR
NEEDED IN A GAME OF THIS SCOPE OR LEVEL OF COMMAND (the "Stop bugging us
about the Midgets, Brady..., they are just not going to happen." file).

It would at least provide some positive feedback for the forumn, and give you all a
"quick response" answer for the second/third/ umpteenth time something came up as
a request. A simple (SEE REASON ONE) or (SEE REASON TWO) would cover the issue.
Agree or not, the forum followers WOULD have an answer, and could move on to things
that might still "be in play" as far as patch possibilities.