For PBEMers - How do you handle these 2 situations (exploits?) -

[Feinder]

1. Single ship TFs. Knavey and I are actually playing cooperatively vs. the computer. It's just something we sort of "backed into". But I've managed to send about 6 divisions into Rangoon via single ship TFs, in order to blunt the IJA invasion of Burma. He holds Tavoy (I still hold Moulmein), and the Bettys/Nells/Sallys based in Tavoy will clobber any TF of 2 or more ships sailing anywhere near Rangoon. But if I just load the division into the large TF, and then split the TF into single ships before it reaches to Rangoon, they all sail nicely under the nose of the bombers at Tavoy.

If it were me in a PBEM game, I'd be royally p1ssed if my bombers wouldn't launch (even set to naval attack), and I -knew- there were 40 APs bringing 6 divisions into a port, and couldn't get my planes to launch. Realistically, they'd have a field day (evidence PQ-17 was scattered and was scattered when Tirpitz threatened, and U-boats and Luftwaffe picked of 70% of the scattered ships). Which actually leads me into my next concern...



2. It seems that the computer will ignore an AF until it's either an direct objective, or has CAP there. In my example above, if I put CAP over Rangoon, suddenly swarms of Zeros and Bettys fill the skies, and plaster my AF and meager CAP into scrap. But if I put the fighters elsewhere, and leave Rangoon completely undefended the Zeros and Bettys find other targets (even tho there is now about 80,000 mean unloading at the docks). So I decided to amuse myself but putting abotut 60 Hurricanes in Rangoon, on Ground Attack. He's ignoring them too. If it were me, I'd be bombing the crap out the place, trying to crater the AF, and kill those planes on the ground. And again, if it was my PBEM game, I'd be very frustrated if I had orded a bombing run of Rangoon, and then some other target was taken.


Do you see these potential exploits in your own PBEM games? If so, what do you do about it?

-F-

[freeboy]

almost buggy

[mogami]

Hi, I'll check into #1 but #2 is easy. What is the logic of bombing an empty airfield?
Whoops reread your post. I'll check on that as well.


Are you saying you found two ways to exploit the AI and are using them? While we sort it out go back to playing like you would against a human. The AI might not be using many patrol planes (you can peek and find out how many are in range of spoting the 1 ship TF)
I can't say how many 1 ship TF get by my patrol but I do find and attack quite a few 1 ship or 2 ship enemy TF.

[Mr.Frag]

A little more information on point #2 please. Are there aircraft based there? Not sure if you are saying it leaves the base alone because there is no cap or leaves the base alone because there are no aircraft.

As to what Mogami said about #1, simply setting a group of Nells or Bettys on 1000 foot Naval Search will deal with that aspect in a PBEM ... they just *love* picking off ships like that. As far as a port attack to hit the ships, just how many ships do you have at the port unloading? Are they docked or not docked? (details like that could make all the difference to the targetting routines). Are there ships disbanded there?

One of the problems with using super long ranged aircraft, there is generally always something that looks to be a better target in range. If there were some shorter ranged aircraft at Tavoy, you would probably be seeing Rangoon getting clobbered more. I assume they *are* flying and hitting other stuff, not just sitting around playing cards...

[Nikademus]

Ye old break down the TF into single ship TF's trick...........

Not sure if there's anyway to stop it short of house rules. #2 I think i might have seen. At the time i just thought the AI had a better target in mind while i was leaving a bomber group there ripe for the picking. (and it did)

[Bradley7735]

In regards to #1: I'm playing allies vs computer. I don't run very many one ship TF's. In some situations, I do. Usually when a ship is damaged and stays in port to fix flooding. Once flooding is fixed, I sail it as fast as I can to permanent repair port. Twice I had a single PG at Lunga. Both times, when trying to escape, betties put torps into them and sank them. Both were in one ship TF's. I've run single AK's out of PM, (not into PM, but out, after they've been damaged). They seem to make it, but there is free ocean one hex out of PM. Out of Lunga, there are several coastal hexes that will allow better spotting for the betties. Once a single ship is in a wide open ocean hex, it's pretty immune. But in a coastal or port hex, it should draw LBA to attack.

From my experience, single ship TF in coastal hexes that are spotted are dead meat. But they are pretty safe in open hexes. Large (multi ship) TF's sometimes get hit in open hexes, but not always.

[Twotribes]

Yes in my computer game single ships get attacked. I supplied Rangoon and alyab ( or what ever its name, the port above rangoon closer to Calcutta) with one ship AK TF's and they got hit some while unloading in both ports and again while leaving, though not to much while approaching. At Port Morsby I have had single AK hit also. Lost 5 to 10 ships supplying the 2 ports in Burma.

[Chris21wen]

Anybody tried sticking a DD In port? If your A/C won't attack a 1 ship TF neither will his but the DD might?

[Feinder]

I figured out I could put "sneak" out some of the BFs from Sing by putting them on single ships, and sail them right thru the Malacca Straight (1-hex away from heavily occupied AFs). But on the two or three occasions that I used 2 or more ships to move a BF, I got bombed. So I started loading the BFs that needed 2 or more ships, and then split the TFs into single ships (even before they were done loading). These single ships TFs made it thru Malacca no problems. So for my "re-invasion" of Burma I...

I -know- the AI has LBA on naval-attack in Burma, because he went for a bombardment TF I had sent against Tavoy. He attacked me about 2 days out with a tonne of Bettys/Nells. Only got one bomb hit tho (I think I was lucky), but I decided to not risk the run, and turned back for Columbo.

Created a "rally point" for my single massive troop TF as Patrol - Do not retire, about 3 days steam out of Rangoon, but out of strike range of Tavoy.

At the rally point, split up my ~40 AKs/APs into individual TFs (carple-tunnel syndrome!). These single-ship TFs were set as Ragoon as the destination, with unload and "retire" on, at full speed.

The ships will basically "trickle" in (since their speeds vary from 10 to 16 kts, due to original speed and accumulated sys damage).

I figured I'd need CAP over the operation (with a working AF at Rangoon). So to start there was nothing in the way of air at Rangoon (and had kept it clear for a week). An empty airfield, meant no Japanese air attacks, so my AF was in great shape to begin the op.

I had 3 squadrons of P40s (AVG) awaiting in Columbo, within "jump" range of Rangoon. I "jumped" the P-40s into Rangoon the same turn that I "released" the swarm of single-ship TFs.

Big air battle ensues over Rangoon. I figured I'd only have to hold the skies for about a week (had Hurris and Buffalos in reserve) to cover the transports on the way in. However, AI attacked the AF, and only a few LBA went for a single transport (prob most are still out of range).

2nd day. More air battles over AF Rangoon. Only 1 or 2 attacks on the transports, but all are definately now in range of Japanese LBA. AI didn't even hit the transports that he attacked anyways, so far, so good.

3rd day. More air battles over AF Rangoon. P-40s starting to stress. No attacks on on ships unloading (they're unloading, not -IN- port). First ships are finishing the drop. Had pulled in a squadron of Buffalos to bolster CAP. Buffalos got slaughtered. Pulling them back to Calcutta ASAP ("Don't feed the Zeros!").

4th day. AVG is worn out. Figured most of my transports were at least half-way unloaded, and I considered the rest of the troops to be "acceptable losses" with no CAP. Pulled any operational AVG fighters back to Columbo. Damaged ones were to "stand down" and repair (to be immediately transferred out.

5th day. Rangoon harbor is still full of ships. There are about 8 or 9 ships that have just left. All are in Range of Japanese LBA. No attacks on Rangoon, -or- the departing transports. Hm... Maybe I don't even need the CAP.

6th day. 2/3 of transports are back at sea. Most are still in range of LBA. Only a single attack (sunk) on about 30 potential targets. No air over Rangoon (and "quietly" flying out AVG as the planes are being repaired). Japanese LBA sends massive attacks vs. other AFs that I don't give a rat's ass about.

Op is almost over. A resounding success. 4 Divisions ashore in 6 days. No troop losses. Only one (empty) transport is sunk. Last 5 or 6 slowest AKs are now leaving LBA range. So I learned...

CAP attracts bad-guys like flies on sh_t.
Single-ship TFs are the way to go.

It's a week later, and I'm currently unloading in 2 more divisions via single-ship TFs. One division is already ashore, and one is unloading. I've also put about 60 Hurri-2s on Ground attack at Rangoon for the past 3 days (target is Moul, where the rest of my army is). My Hurris have launched twice (maybe bad weather on a day?), but so far, no bad-guys attacked either my transports or AF at Rangoon (even tho Tavoy airbal is 1200+ (hold snikeys!), and Rangoon is negative 200-something).

It's all fun against the AI (again, I know he's got guys on naval attack, because he -does- attack, rarely). But again, if I were pull the same stunt on a human player (or were to happen to me), there'd be great wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Regards,
-F-

[Feinder]

Single DDs...

I have used single DDs as "commerce raiders" with mixed success. In one case, Piet Hein came upon a convoy, sunk it's DD escort, and an AP. Rah for the good guys. Second time Bankert came upon a convoy with 2 DDs as escort. He damaged a DD, and then got clobbered himself. Both P-Hein and Bankert were generally ignored by LBA tho.

So I tried...

I'm now currently using two RN CLs (Dragon and Durban) in the DEI. The armor of the CLs can withstand the 5" guns of the escorting DDs, and the added range is also useful. Working quite well. Both Dragon and Durban have attacked convoys, and sank 3 merchants and DD between both of them. The gun-battles with the escorts did little damage to my CLs (as planned).

LBA did attack Durban once this week tho. I think that CL is also a good way to go tho, because 37(!) Bettys missed (boy, was I sweating!). The CL has good maneuver (which probably helps vs. torps). Again the endurance of the CLs make them more suitable to make a run from Oz anyways, and their armor/guns can best anything that is a "normal" convoy escort (DD, PG, PC, MSW). Naturally, we run from anything looks like a CA or larger... :^)

I think this aspect seems fine tho. He -does- go after my single WARSHIP. And either way, it's actually fun playing "Graf Spee"... [:'(]

-F-

[Twotribes]

So are you advocating that if a single or even 2 air units are on Naval attack, they both make unlimited attacks on single ship convoys?

I suspect this is an exploit that cant be reasonably fixed. My advice is dont actively pursue a course using it. Your just cheating yourself.

[Feinder]

I'm not avocating anything Twotribes.

Yes, we do realize this is an appearent exploit.

The whole point of this cooperative game, was to get mine and Knavey's feet wet (who wants mess around with wimpy tutorials when there's a massive campaign). But it is our ultimate intention to play cooperatively as PBEM against two other players. We are developing strategies, and even smooting out working together (Knavey is USN, I'm RN and everybody else).

But we have "discovered" this situation in the AI, that obviously affects PBEM games. Ultimately, the player does NOT control when/what each individual squadron attacks, even in PBEM games. You can set your sqdn to Naval Attack - 2ndardy AF Attack (Rangoon), but there's no real guaretee that your bombers will actually go after a ship, Rangoon, or even launch at all.

I'm just wondering what other PBEM player have done regarding this (since we plan to play team PBEM soon). Do folks make house rules? But even so, there -is- frequent occasion for single ship TFs. But what is the measure of "abuse"? It's would be something -very- difficult to referee anyways.

My questions bear on - Has anyone found a magikal setting (lower altititude or something?) to attack the single-ship TFs? Or if there is no way to actively counter the single-ship TFs thru game settings, what have other players done operationally to to counter-act the situation? (Frankly, I can't think anything to counter it).

Or in the situation of AFs without CAP being (generally) ignored. If you DON'T put CAP up (for whatever reason), then you're "exploiting"? Of course not. But where is the line. If have 40 Buffalos and Tavoy has an airbal of 1400 (say, 200 Zeros), why should I put up CAP, and "feed" your Zeros. It's a waste of planes, pilots, and points. Still, you can't say, "You MUST put CAP at Rangoon so I can attack it!" (because a CAP'd base -will- be attacked more often than a non-CAP'd one!). It's a catch-22.

That's the thing, these are two exploits (if you will), that I can't figure out a soution to. And I either want a solution, either by mechanics, strategy, or house rules, before we get involved with PBEM.

-F-

[BartM]

have you reduced the range of the a/c on naval attack ? I have found that reducing the range on bettys and zeros will get much better results then letting them search 21 hexes to find something (same with carriers, will place fighters the same range as the bombers, giving a more compact cap/escort)

[sveint]

Single ship TFes are yummy! [:)] Bring out the subs and small surface TFes and nothing will get through (the AI doesn't know this though...)

[Twotribes]

Well one simply house rule would be ... You cant purposefully break a unit into single ship convoys to avoid air attack. If your only sending a fragment fine but if your intent is to send the entire unit you cant break the task force down into single ship conveys to avoid air attack.

I do not have a problem with resupply done with single ship convoys, my experience has been that the ships DO get attacked. I lost 5 to 10 AK resupplying akyab and Rangoon with single ship convoys.

[Feinder]

Thanks for the feed-back.

I hadn't actually thot about fiddling with the max-range of the bombers, to increase their presence locally (goes in the "Duh!" catagory!). That would certainly even help to insure that they bomb the invasion TF that is landing in the hex -next- to you, instead of flying out 200 miles to bomb the striken AK, that has already absorbed 3 torpedoes (sorry, touch of sarcasm there!).

I've played with range on CAP, but for whatever reason (probably lack of sleep, I have a 3 week old son! [>:]), it never occurred to me to reduce the max range for bombers, in order to localize the targets. I suspect if I was PBEM, the solution would be to set Tavoy to a max range of 4 or 5, and that would increase the likelihood of attacks on the transports around Rabaul. It also makes sense from what folks are saying, that dramatically increasing the detection level (ie - putting more than one patrol sqdn there) of the individual TFs would also increase the chances of lauching attacks against the individual TFs.

I also see your point about leaving keeping combat formations in the same TF. Seems like a good house rule. I'd go as far to say that, you could break down a Div into 1/2/3 Rgts, and each of them into separate TFs. But your point is certainly well taken.

Thanks for the feed-back all!

-F-

[Chris21wen]

I’ve carried a number of tests using the Coral Sea scenario. The basic setup is as follows


Japan
A single ship (AK) TF heading for Gilli Gilli set to Patrol/Do not retire.
Patrol (Emily) A/C stationed in Lae, Rabaul, Shortlands set to 100% Naval Search
All other A/C set to Naval attack.

Allies
1 x DD TF set to Patrol react range 6 at Gilli Gilli
Patrol (PBYs) A/C stationed in Port Moresby and Gilli Gilli set to 100% Naval Search
All other A/C set to Naval attack.

Test 1
AK arrived GG. A/C form PM attacked and damaged AK. DD surface attack and sank it.
No Japanese air attacks

Test 2
DD TF reacted to AK at 1 hex but no attack. AK arrived and was attack by DD and retired on hex damage. The process was repeated for the next 3 turns and was finally sunk.
No Allied or Japanese air attacks made.



Japan
A single ship (AK) TF heading for GG set to Retirement allowed.
Everything else the same.

Test 3
B-26B attacked AK when it was two hex from GG. AK retired 2 hex and sat there.
No Japanese air attacks

Test 4
DD TF reacted to AK at 1 hex range (night attack). AK retired 1 hex. Air attack from PM sank AK.
No Japanese air attacks



Japan
A single ship (AK) TF heading for GG set to Retirement allowed.

Both
All none attack A/C set to standby.

Test 5
DD reacted to AK at 2 hex range. It attack and damaged it. The AK retired I hex. It returned the next turn only to be attacked and sunk by the DD.



Japan
A single ship (AK) TF heading for GG set to Retirement allowed.

Allies
No allied Naval search

Test 6
The AK hung around 2 hex out from GG for two turns. On the third turn the DD TF reacted to it at the 2 hex range. No damaged was done but the AK retired to Rabaul.

Japan
A single ship (AK) TF heading for GG set to Patrol/Do not retire.

Allies
No allied Naval search

Test 7
A/C in PM attack AK one hex from GG. AK arrives GG. DD engages AK in night surface action. Air attack from PM. Day surface attack by DD. AK retires 1 hex. Next turn is a repeat except there is no night surface attack and the AK was sunk.



Japan
A single ship (AK) TF heading for GG set to Patrol/Do not retire.

Allies
No DD. Aircraft to Naval search and Naval attack as appropriate.

Test 8
A/C in PM attack AK 2 hex from GG. No damage. Ak arrives GG and unloads troops



Japan
A single ship (AK) TF heading for GG set to retirement allowed.

Allies
No DD. Aircraft to Naval attack. No naval search.

Test 9
AK took longer to arrive and started unloading. During the day A/C from PM attacked



Conclusion
These limited test seem to indicate that a single ship TF will be attacked by doth air and surface if its spotted. Other than using house rules one way to prevent single ship TF is to place a DD in port. Note I did try a PG in place of the DD. It did attack but did no damage. The AK then unloaded its troops being attacked again etc. The PG experience and leadership were both 40 and below.

You should note that there wasn't one Japanese air attack even though GG was well with range of the Nells and Bettys stationed in Lae and Rabaul.

[Twotribes]

I recently occupied Gili Gili in my game, the resupply is by single ship TF, I will keep watch as to what happens, I know that In Burma the Japanese attacked my rangoon and Akyab single ship convoys while resupplying. Generally the didnt attack on approach, but did attack in port and after they left.

[Chris21wen]

[:D]I think that happens because they sneak in without being seen, but its pretty hard to remain 'cloaked' when you unloading. They stay spotted until they get back into the open sea.