Ridiculous

[rroberson]

As many of you know Im a big old WITP fanboy. I am willing to go quite far to come up with reasonable explanations for some of the dumber things that happen in this game. I still feel like its pretty near nirvana everytime I boot this baby up. But this is insane.

So I spot my opponent reiyc moving Minesweepers to PM. A foreboding thing which means carriers and combat troop ships arent far behind. I have expected landings for a while , reiyc likes to bomb the hell out of places before invading and Moresby has been the subject of 150 bomber raids for a couple of weeks straight. So I slide a pair of carrier groups into N. Australia and put them into port. The idea was to rest my air and sea crews for what I believe will be a decisive naval engagement. Well sure enough Reiyc swings a deathstar carrier group south towards australia clearing my shipping out. I know precisely where he is thanks to B-17 recons. I put my two carriers to sea right away....now understand...I know I will lose both carriers. Reiyc has between 3 and 4 carriers pounding my shipping...My only hope is to damage his group enough that he withdraws them (ie coral sea) and delays his invasion. In March, the allies still cannot expect to win naval duels against the Japanese.

I close with his carrier groups...I get the turn and begin watching the results and to my delight, not only do i close with his battlestar...IM two freaking hexes away it. Not only will I get a full strike, my torpedo planes will join the party. Soon I see not one, but two sightings by Dauntless Dive Bombers. I'm reasonably certain up to now I have gone unsighted though once I launch Im sure to get a loud response from his planes.

My first strike goes up, 27 Wildcat fighters and two scout planes. That's right, the turn before I was so certain of a carrier battle I even changed a couple of scout planes on my cruisers to naval attack. Now im pretty dumbfounded. The fighters are airborne over the enemy, a couple of scout planes...but nothing else. I try not to worry, they are launched just havent arrived. I watch as his planes savage my carrier group...expected...and then...the turn ends. Where are my freaking Divebombers...torpedo planes...what the hell.

Now I know for a fact I prepped this group for battle. 99 morale almost across the board (one of my fighter groups was at 79) Prior to putting to sea I made sure all my leaders were good to great. Hell I was so paranoid the day before I went back and looked at everything and ordered scout planes from some of my cruisers to naval attack. I was throwing everything i have against him. This is utterly unsatisfactory. I am so disenchanted with the results that it has stolen my desire to boot the game up again. There is no way that my planes should not of launched. The weather was obviously fine, the enemy was spotted, the morale was high, what the hell. Right now I am honesty sick about this. Reiyc is an awesome opponent who has kicked my ass across the pacific in our game. The game will go on despite the absolute ridiculousness of this turn because Robby doesnt take his ball home when things don't turn out right. But Robby is very pissed at the programming of this jewel.

[Ron Saueracker]

Well this is something I'm not too surprised got passed the testing! Sending SOCs on a one way mission vs carriers. You are one mean bastard of an Admiral, Halsey had nothing on you except, well, he was the real thing. The simple fact is that the programmers and what have you probably never thought of this situation and it got interwoven with the un coordinated strike routines.

Kinda sucks in a PBEM though, Rob. Bummer.[8D]

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Well this is something I'm not too surprised got passed the testing! Sending SOCs on a one way mission vs carriers. You are one mean bastard of an Admiral, Halsey had nothing on you except, well, he was the real thing. The simple fact is that the programmers and what have you probably never thought of this situation and it got interwoven with the un coordinated strike routines.

Kinda sucks in a PBEM though, Rob. Bummer.[8D]

Yes, but what happened to the rest of his strike?!

[Mike Scholl]

Gotta agree, Robbie. SHAFTED is the word that sprang to my mind. But given how
much hard work, planning, and just plain luck it takes just to get an Allied CV force
into position to "put some hurt" of the opposition in this game, a result like your's
would make anyone "sick at heart". Your PBEM opponant should at least ship you
a six-pack so you can drown your sorrows.

I've about decided that sailing the Allied CV's anywhere before a full complement of
TBF's arrives is just asking for trouble. Maybe knowing such "dissappointments" await
the Allied Player is why GG insists on keeping the CV replacement rule in the game?
Lord knows a "Midway" isn't a very likely occurance.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Gotta agree, Robbie. SHAFTED is the word that sprang to my mind. But given how
much hard work, planning, and just plain luck it takes just to get an Allied CV force
into position to "put some hurt" of the opposition in this game, a result like your's
would make anyone "sick at heart". Your PBEM opponant should at least ship you
a six-pack so you can drown your sorrows.

I've about decided that sailing the Allied CV's anywhere before a full complement of
TBF's arrives is just asking for trouble. Maybe knowing such "dissappointments" await
the Allied Player is why GG insists on keeping the CV replacement rule in the game?
Lord knows a "Midway" isn't a very likely occurance.

Well, then we're right back to UV again with respect to the naval air model. Not good.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Well this is something I'm not too surprised got passed the testing! Sending SOCs on a one way mission vs carriers. You are one mean bastard of an Admiral, Halsey had nothing on you except, well, he was the real thing. The simple fact is that the programmers and what have you probably never thought of this situation and it got interwoven with the un coordinated strike routines.

Kinda sucks in a PBEM though, Rob. Bummer.[8D]

Yes, but what happened to the rest of his strike?!

What I meant was that it is such an unexpected occurance, perhaps it porked the routine.

[rroberson]

I guess this just strikes a nerve with me. I have had wierd things like this before in my first PBEM game with Xargun, where not once, but twice I got the jump on his carrier groups (slipped in unsighted) only to lose the battle, badly. That was explained away logically (even though I still have a big problem with it) I want someone to try to explain this away logically.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

I guess this just strikes a nerve with me. I have had wierd things like this before in my first PBEM game with Xargun, where not once, but twice I got the jump on his carrier groups (slipped in unsighted) only to lose the battle, badly. That was explained away logically (even though I still have a big problem with it) I want someone to try to explain this away logically.

I wanna see the explanation too, but Idon't think one is forth coming in this instance. Sort of a Japanese tactic. Can't fault anyone for missing this puppy in my opinion.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

I guess this just strikes a nerve with me. I have had wierd things like this before in my first PBEM game with Xargun, where not once, but twice I got the jump on his carrier groups (slipped in unsighted) only to lose the battle, badly. That was explained away logically (even though I still have a big problem with it) I want someone to try to explain this away logically.

Oh, the seemingly automatic counterstrike thingy? Guess the time scale of the game does not mesh well with undetected first strike carrier exchanges. Bummer again. That the PBEM where 4 of your CVs are gone by Xmas?[8D]

[rroberson]

Nah, thats our second game, we restarted after the patch out of fears of inconsistant databases. He our first game I jumped him twice, he never knew I was there until the dive bombers came screaming out of the skies. The results of the strike were less then satisfactory....light damage. He proceeded to wreck my attacking carriers. This happened....twice in that game.

What you are refering to in our current game...he was fishing around south of Pearl 2 weeks after the war and caught saratoga on patrol. I never knew he was there ...it was a damn good move. He also caught two of my carriers south of Rabaul...Im still not sure how yet since I havent gotten past this thing with reiyc. I was under teh impression they were teaming well south of Rabual, ah well, he is playing a much tougher game in our AAR so I wil lbe hurting for a while in that one.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: rroberson

I guess this just strikes a nerve with me. I have had wierd things like this before in my first PBEM game with Xargun, where not once, but twice I got the jump on his carrier groups (slipped in unsighted) only to lose the battle, badly. That was explained away logically (even though I still have a big problem with it) I want someone to try to explain this away logically.

I wanna see the explanation too, but Idon't think one is forth coming in this instance. Sort of a Japanese tactic. Can't fault anyone for missing this puppy in my opinion.

It seems to me, in general, the probability bell curves in this game are very flat with very large standard deviations, thus allowing an extremely wide range of possiblities to occur, which at the further ends, tend to be well beyond realistic. Seems they either need to tighten up the deviations a bit or perhaps check out some other kinds of probablity distribution models that may better apply other than the old bell-curve...

[Xargun]

It seems to me in my PBeM experience that the US is able to get the jump on the IJN CVs most of the time - I attribute this to radar. Usually the US planes arrive first and get mauled by my zero CAP, but 20-30 SBDs survive and land a couple 1000 lbers on my flight decks... THEN, my CVs launch a counter strike - usually a good strike, sometimes not depending on the actual damage done by US planes... In my half dozen or so CV clashes as japan I have only ONCE got the first strike in against allied CVs and that was at a range of 5 - so I'm sure the range was the key factor - not anything I did..

The only thing I can think of that screwed up the strike may be attributed to the CV coordination rule that affects allied CV TFs to prevent the uber Death Star. Any time in 42 that the allies have 100+ aircraft in a single TF the chance of an uncoordinated air strike is doubled... (manual pg 130). So my guess is that by enabling your float planes to include them in the attack actually caused the check to fail after the TF asigned some zero cover for the few float planes. Thus only a handful of float planes were launched on the attack.. Then the Japanese counterattack arrived and mauled your CVs stopping future flight operations... Its sounds cheesy and I would be quite mad if it happened to me as well, but looks like you were the subject of a random chance...

Xargun

[rroberson]

well 18 dive bombers times four is 72, add 27 torpedo bombers that is 99. So what you are saying is by adding the two stinking scout planes it scuttled my raid. Absolute madness. This needs to be addressed. What is the point of the allied player even bothering before 1943.

[Oznoyng]

I feel your pain. My only PBEM game is Mogami...

So there I am on Dec 8th, and I have reset my attack planes to Naval Attack/Port and I'm 3 hexes from PH. Mogami sorties his BB's and heads towards Lahaina. The first strike goes in - without escort. Fortunately, there is no CAP and the strike sends another BB to the bottom with multiple torps into most of the remainder. A second strike, also without escort (or cap) hits a DD group and gets an MSW, and a pair of DD's. AM phase ends and PM phase begins. I am ready to can some Zero commanders for not joining in the fun. My heart is in my throat as the PM phase begins, I am praying "Don't hit Pearl like that! Don't hit Pearl like that..." Well, they did. Fortunately, Mogami didn't have his CAP up and I got through and put some holes in a bunch of minor combatants.

So, I asked myself "Did I stand down my zeros?" Checking it, I had 90 plus morale, less than 25 fatigue, no damaged, set to escort/CAP, and at 15k altitude. The only thing I could see that might be a problem was the fact that they all had target Pearl Harbor (I adjusted the fighter group that was targeted for PH and then "changed all fighters in hex"). I changed that, but I didn't stick around another turn to find out if I had fixed it by removing the target.

Later, I think the same setting prevented a LR CAP over my Miersing invasion force from flying. It may also have been weather, because alot of my af was grounded for several turns in Malaya area. Unfortunately, the other
airgroup that was supposed to be flying LR CAP was flying cap over some *barges* after I targeted the wrong TF... Fortunately, I didn't take horrible damage, but I was certainly frustrated.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

well 18 dive bombers times four is 72, add 27 torpedo bombers that is 99. So what you are saying is by adding the two stinking scout planes it scuttled my raid. Absolute madness. This needs to be addressed. What is the point of the allied player even bothering before 1943.

Quite possibly it does need addressed - but the number is 100 aircraft in the TF... So if you have 2 CVs you have 180 aircraft... By the rules in the book (and how I understand them) this would give you an 80% of of launching an uncoordinated airstrike against a target. SO what I think is that it checked the float planes first (maybe it does this by ship order in the TF or some other magic formula) and launched the float planes.. Then made a roll to add some escorts (I doubt float planes - or any planes for that matter - would attack enemy CVs without some escort) and then failed to add anything else to the air strike - waiting for the next one to use your SBDs and TBFs... Its just that you never got the chance for another strike...

Like I said I do not know for sure if this is the cause or what.. a beta / designer should answer this one.. BTW, I sent you an email... check your mail

Xargun

[crsutton]

Could have just been random bad luck. Perhaps some testing is needed.

[rroberson]

Going from memory here.

carrier one. 24 fighters, 36 dive bombers 12 torpedo planes 72
carrier two. 27 fighters, 36 dive bombers 17 torpedo planes 80

my home cap was set for 90 on one carrier I believe 70 on the other so at most 12 fighters hould of gone on the strike (27 did).


Now numbers and all that are all well and good. But there is no way any sane admiral would send the float planes off for a quick bomb run and leave the warbirds on the decks for the 2nd wave. That is what needs to be addressed.


Now maybe Im crazy ...it is the football season and we have Northwestern in a couple days, so IM sure Im crabbier then normal...but this really has me up in arms.

[Oliver Heindorf]

Guys, here is my opinion : this is a wargame. it simulates the war. in war, NOTHING goes ahead like it was actually planed. you planned your strike to be escorted. Think about this : maybe your bombers took off first becasue the fightes had shorter legs (i.e. fuel). the day is almost over, lets say its about 3 p.m. Dauntless after Dountless is roaring in the sky, the air is full of noise from the engines. above the carrier, the SBD strike group is forming and waiting for their escorts. the pilots are watching the crew men to make the last 2 SBD's ready for launching. Suddenly, the equippment which throws the Aircraft in the air has a malfunction. the estiminate repair time will be 2 to 3 hours. the admiral has to decide : Strike with no escrts NOW or recover the planes and hide away. just an idea what might have happen in the real world. this game simulates even this possibllities with those things. it is bad when it happens, but heck, this is a simulation, not an arcade game [:'(]

[John B]

It does seem pretty difficult for an Allied CV force to repeat the kind of results in 1942 which happened historically. After a few very painful encounters with the KB etc, in previous playings of the campaign game going up to the end of June 1942, I've come to the conclusion the wisest strategy is to venture out with my CVs only when I've clear information that the Jap CVs are somewhere else. This time around I've set up Lunga as a kind of unsinkable aircraft carrier, and I'm hopefully letting the KB use up its best pilots in repeated attacks, which it seems to be making, possibly trying to lure my CV task force out from Noumea. No chance; I lost "Yorktown" in the kind of fiasco described at the start of this thread, and ain't sticking my head out again yet awhile [:(]

[rroberson]

sure a plausible explanation for no fighters on a strike. Problem is, in this case there were no no bombers on the strike. the Dauntlesses could of circled the carrier forever since the enemy was a scant 2 hexes away and not been hurting for fuel. Torpedo planes and fighters might of had an issue forming up since they have shorter legs...but come on...if there was a malfunction on one of the flight decks, then a partial strike should of gotten off. Plus the strike should of gone down in the AM turn.