What modern tank are considered...

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Belisarius
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Belisarius »

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

M1A2 hands down IMO. Plus turbine engine is best if you have the logistics capability to keep it in fuel. Dang thing will run on just about any fuel you put in it. In desert conditions, just remember to blow the air filters out regularly. Must have lots of air.

Well, that's sorta the point with diesel engines, too. They run on almost any crude combustible oil. With less need for air. ;)

I guess the M1 and Challenger2 has got Chabham armor, but I don't know if that's a huge advantage over the Leopard2 at today's rate. A 'pard can't defeat another 'pard with frontal shots. Which says a lot.

Btw, don't the Abrams and Leopards stem from the US - German joint venture back in the 70's? IIRC, they got stuck on details and resorted to develop their own tanks, but kept the basic concept from the initial prototype?
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by 2ndACR »

IIRC they both were developed out of the failed design.

The M1 is equiped with Chobham armor, and also depleted uranium armor. They both use the same main gun, complete interchangability of ammo etc. Also a M1 cannot kill another M1 with a frontal shot either. Or I should say the same gun as the Leopard 2A1.

Engine package w/transmission can be changed out in less than 2 hours by a good maintenance crew. Much quiter and faster than a diesel powered tank. Fuel hog to the max. Burns just as much fuel basically at idle as full power. But we have a massive logistics train that goes where we go, so fuel and ammo is not a problem 90% of the time.

As to reliability, in GW1 my regiment equipped with 155 M1A1 (hvy) tanks only had 15 breakdowns during the war and 2 mission kills. Engine compartments taking hits. No crew members were injured or killed. My Cav troop maint carried 2 complete engine pacs with us, Sqdrn Support had 8 engine pacs, and I have no clue how many regiment support carried.
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Error in 0 »

According to a Norwegian tank commander, his leopard could not withstand a hit of a simple M72 (the handheld rocketlauncher). That had to be a earlier Leopard, but still... Is M1A2 impenetrable for an ie CarlGustav?

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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by 2ndACR »

The armor on an M1A2 will stop any HEAT round made. At least that is what we were taught in Armor School.
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Makoto »

hmm I wonder how those tanks in the present war got knocked around, did they run over mines?
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by 2ndACR »

I know of 2 M1A2's that have been completely destoryed in Iraq. One was hit by a new RPG that I have no knowledge of (been out too long) and the other a month or so ago. Engine took hits and the Iraqi's set it on fire after the crew bailed out.

Of course this is to be expected when you send tanks into an urban enviroment to take on basically infantry. I spent 3 years as a grunt and can tell you that I have no fear of tanks in mountains, heavy forest, urban terrain. IMO the military made a mistake getting rid of the 6th, 7th, 9th LID's. Those are the units that need to be used in those types of terrain.

Of course, any HEAT round fired from above any tank made will penetrate the top armor.
That is why they should not be used in urban terrain especially. Not sure where the M1A2 hit by the RPG was hit.
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Shaun Wallace »

The most common type of composite armour today is Chobham armour, first developed by the British in the 1970s for their new Challenger tank. Chobham sandwiches a layer of ceramic between two plates of steel armor, which was shown to dramatically increase the resistance to high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds. HEAT had seriously challenged the ability of armor to survive since its introduction in WWII, and Chobham was such an improvement that it was soon copied on the new US M1 Abrams main battle tank as well (although there it is referred to as Special Armor). It is the fabrication of the ceramic in large tiles that gives the Challenger and Abrams their "slab sided" look.

Chobham's precise mechanism for defeating HEAT was something of a mystery until the 1980s. High speed photography showed that the ceramic material shatters as the HEAT round penetrates, blowing up to a huge volume which then expands back out the hole and pushes the metal jet of the HEAT with it. The effectiveness of the system was amply demonstrated in Desert Storm, where a handful of Challengers destroyed 300 Iraqi tanks without loss, one at over five miles range.

Newer versions of Chobham include open spaces, depleted uranium and other layers in addition to the original steel/ceramic layering. The uranium layers are included primarily to increase the total mass of metal while not being larger physically. The Soviet Union has not deployed composite armor on a large scale, deciding instead to focus their efforts on reactive armor. False!

T-64:
First ever production MBT to carry combinational armor. It carried Combination K, which appariently is composed of glass fiber suspended within a plastic resin. Through a mechanism called thixotropy, the resin changes to a fluid under constant pressure, allowing the armor to be molded into curved shapes.

DOI: 1966 RHA verus APFSDS: 410 mm RHA verus HEAT: 500 mm

T-80B:
Along with the T-64B and T-72A, this vehicle substituted a Boron Carbide filled resin aggregate in 2nd generation Combination K, similar to the above mentioned GRP, but was more compact and provided better protection for the same weight.

DOI: 1978 RHA verus APFSDS: 500 mm RHA verus HEAT: 580 mm

T-80BV:
The introduction of ERA on Russian vehicles led to a massive emergancy program on the behalf of NATO to requip their ATGMs with tandem warheads. The first T0W-2A appeared after the T-80U was introduced.

DOI: 1983 RHA verus APFSDS: 500 mm RHA verus HEAT: 1 000 mm

T-80U:
The first vehicle to carry Kontakt-5 EDZ, effective both against HEAT warheads and APFSDS. It also carried an applique armor pack which is composed of a frontal steel plate about 60 mm thick backed by an insert of three layers of inert interlayer reactive armor, composed of steel plates and penapolyurethane filler. Tests by a unified Germany in 1995 found this material to have an Em of about 5.0. Also had significant increases to vehicle survivablity in other areas, mostly the armoring and cellurization of ammunition storage and the incorporation of composite steel/GRP armor on the vehicle's flanks.

Chobham armour is a composite armour developed at the British tank research centre on Chobham Common. Although the exact composition of Chobham armour remains a secret, it appears to be a combination of ceramic layered between armor steel plating, a combination that is excellent at defeating high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds.
The exact nature of the protection offered by this layering remained a mystery for some time, but it was eventually revealed that Chobham armour works in a manner somewhat similar to reactive armor. When the armor is hit by a HEAT round the ceramic layer shatters under the impact point, forming a dust under high pressure. When the HEAT round "burns through" the outer layers of armor and reaches the ceramic, the dust comes flying back out the hole, slowing the jet of metal.

Modern tanks also have to face KE-penetrator rounds of various sorts, which the ceramic layer is not particularily effective against. For this reason many modern designs include additional layers of heavy metals to add more density to the overall armor package. The metal used appears to be either tungsten or, in the case of later M1 Abrams tanks, depleted uranium.

The effectiveness of Chobham armour was demonstrated in the first Gulf War, where no Coalition tank was destroyed by Iraqi ones. In some cases the tanks in question were subject to multiple point-blank hits by both KE-penetrators and HEAT rounds, but the lower power of the T-72 and T-64 guns left them completely incapable of penetrating the armor. To date only one Chobham protected tank has been defeated in combat, an M1 that was hit by an advanced dual-warhead HEAT wire guided missile in the second Gulf War.

Chobham armour is used on the Challenger II, the Leopard II and the M1 Abrams series of tanks.

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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Marc von Martial »

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

According to a Norwegian tank commander, his leopard could not withstand a hit of a simple M72 (the handheld rocketlauncher). That had to be a earlier Leopard, but still... Is M1A2 impenetrable for an ie CarlGustav?

JT

Was that a Leopard 1 ?

Btw, are you norwegian? I just came back from Oslo. Noticed that the "Vakt" (? correct ?) soldiers at your royals residence and the Akershus Fortress parade/guard with a german G3 , is that still a standard weapon in the norwegian Army, or just a "ceremonial" / guard weapon?
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Belisarius »

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

According to a Norwegian tank commander, his leopard could not withstand a hit of a simple M72 (the handheld rocketlauncher). That had to be a earlier Leopard, but still... Is M1A2 impenetrable for an ie CarlGustav?

JT

Was that a Leopard 1 ?

Btw, are you norwegian? I just came back from Oslo. Noticed that the "Vakt" (? correct ?) soldiers at your royals residence and the Akershus Fortress parade/guard with a german G3 , is that still a standard weapon in the norwegian Army, or just a "ceremonial" / guard weapon?

I was thinking the same thing. That "must" have been a Leopard 1.

Stepping in to reply Marcs, the Norwegians use, AFAIK, the AG-3 as main infantry weapon. The AG-3 is a licensed G3. In Sweden we use the G3 too, but under license and modifications under the name AK-5.
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Error in 0 »

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

According to a Norwegian tank commander, his leopard could not withstand a hit of a simple M72 (the handheld rocketlauncher). That had to be a earlier Leopard, but still... Is M1A2 impenetrable for an ie CarlGustav?

JT

Was that a Leopard 1 ?

Btw, are you norwegian? I just came back from Oslo. Noticed that the "Vakt" (? correct ?) soldiers at your royals residence and the Akershus Fortress parade/guard with a german G3 , is that still a standard weapon in the norwegian Army, or just a "ceremonial" / guard weapon?

It was a Leopard 1. Thats the only tank we have here :) And AG3 is the standard weapon in Norway, altough I believe they now buy a newer model (G4?). This is the story of Norways defensive equipment; handful of F16 w/o night attack capabilities, a navy that has been ancered up in harbour because of low funding, a handful of TOWII as our main AT weapon....Our neighbours can feel safe [:)]


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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Marc von Martial »

True, your neighbours might feel save, but I woulnd´t want to fight my way into Norway too [;)]. I don´t think you need a big force to harass a potential invader. Looks like awesome defense and ambush country there.
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RE: Challenger 2

Post by The MSG »

Challenger 2 is equipped with an L30 gun

Wrong. The gun is designated L30 (or more accurately, the L30A1 is in use today), it is longer than 30 calibers.

I wouldn't even consider the Chally 2 until the gun problem is fixed. The UK does not have the resources alone to develop sophisticated ammo types in competition with the Rheinmetal smoothbore (developed by Germany, the USA, Israel, South Africa and loads of commercial entities) for their rifled L30. While the HESH has its advantages as a GP round, its increasingly obsolete against modern armour. There has been a decision, or at least a suggestion, that the Rheinmetall L44 or L55 should be implemented into the Chally, wich would bring it up to speed. But then there is the problem of internal redesign, mainly because the Chally has uses separet propellant bags instead of unitary cartridges... the entire ammunition stowage system has to be redesigned...

As for deciding wich is better between the M1A2 and Leo 2A5 (the most modern types in large scale service), its mainly a matter of taste. They are both very much more similar than different, both being based on a failed co-development experience by the US and Germany.

I prefer the Leo 2A5, because of its "diesel" (wich is developed from a 5000hp boat engine, so it gives a very explosive 1500hp, somewhat equalizing it with the turbine on the Abrams), wich is cheaper logistically both to keep fueled and going. Those gasturbines are damn expensive, even if they break down somewhat more rarely once they do it does costs a pretty penny to replace the powerpack.

The turbine always work on "full rev", so the Abrams burn huge amounts of fuel even idling. This is supposed to be rectified by carrying another APU-turbine to supply electricity for electrical systems and the turret when stationary. Here is were the "easier to maintain" issue starts to become clouded. While the engine alone is "simpler", its nature has forced the inclusion of another system, itself demanding additional maintenance.

It seems that the placement of the APU may have been poor, as several of the Abrams lost to fire in Iraq has had their fires started in the area where the APU is mounted, there is supposedly a "field expedient" fix for this, but wether it is fully effective I can't guess.

The gastubine also has a tendency slightly larger than the diesel to choke if driving through a water obstacle as well. This would be related to its need for greater airflow and quite logical, so I find these claims to be credible, or at least very possible.

The Abrams carries ALL its ammo in the rear-turret bulkhead, while Leo 2 carries some rounds in the hull, this would give the Abrams somewhat of an advantage in crew survivability. But then again the hull-based stowage area on the Leo is armed as well (although with no blow-out panels), so crew should in most cases be able to escape the vehicle before a brew-up in a worst case scenario with the hull stowage area penetrated.

If we bring in the Merkava 4 things start to get difficult. The all-aspect armouring seems to be greater, but the system in all is rather unknown (ie not disclosed by the IDF), so its rather a wild-card IMHO.

The most modern Russian systems (short of Black Eagle and T-95 wich are prototypes and largely unknowns), mainly the T-80UK and T-90M still has that bad old autoloader (although updated) wich nearly guarantees a catastrophic KK brewup once penetrated. The autoloader also severely limits the possibility to use long-rod penetrators limiting the effectiveness of teh gun. The gunbarrel is lightweight and wears out much faster than the Western equivalent. Additionally they are maintenace demanding contrary to popular mythology, engines and the drive train wears out much more quickly. therefore although the tanks may be cheaper to buy, they are more expensive to maintain and train on.

Armor-wise they have nifty gee-whiz equipment like Kontakt-5 advanced ERA and active defense systems like ARENA. The problem is that these systems most likely aren't foolproof to any extent and really unproven. It doesn't look like any of the systems protected the T-90's used by Russia in Chechnya from LAW's and RPG's for instance.

In Chechnya another issue materialized. Due to the autolaoader the gun on Russian tanks are capable of less lower angles of elevation and depression, limiting their usefulness in FIBUA even more.
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by The MSG »

ORIGINAL: Belisarius
Stepping in to reply Marcs, the Norwegians use, AFAIK, the AG-3 as main infantry weapon. The AG-3 is a licensed G3. In Sweden we use the G3 too, but under license and modifications under the name AK-5.

No, the HK G3, or rather our very modified HK G3is the AK4, now mainly in the AK4B version (with rail and RDS) used by Hemvärnet (the Home Guard reserve).

The AK5 is a somewhat modified FN FNC 80, soon to be replaced with the AK5C with RAS and a RDS as standard. The SUSAT 4 from the AK5B will be issued to selected marksmen, usually one per squad.
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Error in 0 »

Whats up with the swedish tiger? I have seen this so many places in Sweden, it beginning to look like a cult. I know the consept is old (70ies?), but what does it represent?

Oh, derailing thread [:)]


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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by The MSG »

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
Whats up with the swedish tiger? I have seen this so many places in Sweden, it beginning to look like a cult. I know the concept is old (70ies?), but what does it represent?

Oh, derailing thread [:)]


JT

Well, in Swedish the word "tiger" means both "tiger" as in the animal, and "keeps silent". The sentence "En Svensk Tiger" has two meanings, ie "A Swedish Tiger", or "A Swede Keeps Silent".

The origin of the picture is WW2, and it was the centerpiece of a wartime awareness campaign with the same intentions of the German "Pst!" or American "Loose lips sink ships!" campaigns.

In essence, think about what you say, you never know who is listening. ;)
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Belisarius »

ORIGINAL: The MSG
ORIGINAL: Belisarius
Stepping in to reply Marcs, the Norwegians use, AFAIK, the AG-3 as main infantry weapon. The AG-3 is a licensed G3. In Sweden we use the G3 too, but under license and modifications under the name AK-5.

No, the HK G3, or rather our very modified HK G3is the AK4, now mainly in the AK4B version (with rail and RDS) used by Hemvärnet (the Home Guard reserve).

The AK5 is a somewhat modified FN FNC 80, soon to be replaced with the AK5C with RAS and a RDS as standard. The SUSAT 4 from the AK5B will be issued to selected marksmen, usually one per squad.

Dang! How could I get that mixed up? Yep, the AG3 is, ofcourse, equivalent to our AK4. The caliber for one thing should be a dead giveaway. [:o]
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Larac »

Which country is this?

Lee

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(and i gladly live in a country that does not invade or conquer foreign soil) i do not need it....
and i gladly live in a country that does not invade or conquer foreign soil) i do not need it....
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Adnan Meshuggi »

Oh, just look in my profile... nah, sorry... i forgot to write
germany..
i am happy that we are no longer involved (at last not initally) in and war. but it is just my personell opinion [:D]
Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Belisarius »

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Oh, just look in my profile... nah, sorry... i forgot to write
germany..
i am happy that we are no longer involved (at last not initally) in and war. but it is just my personell opinion [:D]

You still make the best tanks. [;)]
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RE: What modern tank are considered...

Post by Adnan Meshuggi »

hehe, thank you, but not necessary true.

Oh, wait, you spoke about the Wiesel ? YES SIR....[:D]

the Leopard II is a great tank, but still around 30 years old. I doubt that the abrahams is better, but i think the leclerc (beeing much newer and later designed, based on the leopard-2 but improved) could be better. At last, all these new tanks are more or less a Leopard II. THe ammo of the abrahams with du is better untill the higher muzzle speed from the a6 gun will improve it.

THe big difference is the engine... gasturbine or diesel (all-fuel-)engine. For the americans, knowing they never will be invaded, this is not important, for the rest of the western world, it is a huge difference.
Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit
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