Mortar Units

[stall84]

I imagine this might have been brought up in another thread, but for the sake of clarity Ill post it in this thread.

Has anyone noticed that it seems when you order a battalion sized unit to defend facing a direction that they tend to put the mortar company on the front line?
This also seems to happen occasionally when you order an assault. The mortar company is usually put at the front of the advance.
This seems to be occuring regaurdless of the commanders compitence.
To me, it seems highly unlikely that a battalion would send its medium/heavy mortar company into an assault at the front of the line.

Anyone else noticed this? Any reasons/fixes?

[Golf33]

stall84,

can you please confirm you have applied patch 2 (build 2.2.86)?

Regards
33

[stall84]

Yes I have installed the 2nd patch.

My current version is 2.2.0.86

[stall84]

More often than not, now that I have started to keep an eye out for it, I notice it tends to happen when you give an attack order. But it does definately occur on defensive orders as well

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: stall84

More often than not, now that I have started to keep an eye out for it, I notice it tends to happen when you give an attack order. But it does definately occur on defensive orders as well

To look at this we'll need a saved game, if possible could you send a save showing the behaviour in progress and if possible showing it in attack and defence?

Send it to support at panthergames dot com please.

Thanks
33

[Arjuna]

Re Saved Games. What would be ideal is one game where the behaviour is evident and one immediately prior ( or as close to ) the time when the force in question received their orders. For formation stuff like this the force we really want to check is the boss of the Mortar unit. So immediately before the boss starts processing the new order which resulted in the errant behaviour.

[stall84]

I will try to send a saved game showing a before and after.

Im kinda suprised no one else has noticed this.

[marc420]

well, I'm a newbie at this game, but I tend to detach the mortars so I can control both positioning and ammo usage.

I was playing the Arnhem Air Lnding Bdge scenario recently as the Germans. seems like my front line units were engaging the Ai's mortars a lot. Admittedly we had the brits surrounded in the middle of Arnhem, so there wasn't a lot of space. But where I would have formed a ring and but the mortars in the middle, it appeared that the ai had its mortars more towards the battle fronts.

And when I ordered a reinforcement group to move as a formation to the north side of Arnhem and then attack, I found its mortar just a bit behind the forward units and apparently engaging in Mauser fire with the Brits.

So its just an impression from a newbie, but I seem to get the feeling that the AI exposes its mortars more than I would by keeping them closer to the rest of the formation.

[Cage]

Just to agree on this point. I've played the game loads with painfully realistic settings, it does happen frequently that the mortar unit in a company gets set up out front on a defensive position or in attack. I think the AI struggles alot with "gun" units, AT/AA units often end up leading an attack and get slaughtered. Even on the big campaigns I now control all AT/AA units individually.

Cage.

[Arjuna]

Cage,

Are you using the latest patch ( 2.2.86 )?

[Cage]

Yes I am.

Cage.

[Tactics]

Here is a screen shot. The motorized inf in the upper right have just started their attack. As you can see, the mortar units were moved far in advance - even while the infantry were still reorging. There was some good fighting going on, so the AI should have known the approx location of the enemy, but he still let the mortars lead and moved them on to a clear hill top.

Saved game sent.



*edit* When this happened I got a little burned off. I exited the game and did not save it as it was happening. I had played for approx 1 hour before this SS was taken. Sorry.

[Arjuna]

OK this is a different aspect to what I thought you were originally referring to. This is not so much a problem with the formation code but rather with the choice of the "reserve/firebase" location. I'll check out the saved games when they arrive and try and find out why it though they were a good spot. It could be that it thought this area was friendly controlled - ie by the other Kraft units nearby. That would bias its selection.

[Black Cat]

Dave

Just a dumb question on this ( which I`ve seen although not as often as before the patch ) .

Are the Mortars coded to engage in direct fire at any time ?

[Arjuna]

Mortars are indirect fire units by nature and most of the code that relates specifically to them is focused on this aspect. However, mortar units are units and as such subject to the normal "reaction" code. So if fired upon at close range they can and do return direct fire. Moreover, if they can see an enemy target at say 2000m they can fire their mortars at them in the direct role.

[Grognard]

That would explain why Allied mortar platoons have such good APer values for their size. In a pinch they can (and I do) fill in as line infantry. They might be coded as support troops but unlike artillery, mortarmen have a combat MOS.

Indirect mortar fire will turn back low quality units but it seems slightly less effective against quality units than one would think. Some supression but from what I have noticed - pretty low casualties. No?

[Cage]

5 to 10 minutes rapid fire from 81mm mortars can cause a British Para company to fall back if it's caught in deployed status. It certainly causes casualties. Versus dug in not so effective but then that's good realism.

I know mortar units use direct fire for self defence...but I suspect they don't actually direct fire their mortars. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure. It'd be good if they did weigh in with some mortar fire where possible.

That pic above I've seen alot of similar situations, and including AT and AA units which in that situation can't shoot back and make very easy targets for incoming fire. I don't understand when an attack is launched why gun units are not automatically put into a supporting role for the infantry and armour. They can sit there and provide effective covering fire, I have to do it all individually now but it does work well in practice.

Cage.

[Arjuna]

Mortar units do fire their tubes in direct fire if possible - ie the target is between the max and min ranges.

Whether firing direct or indirect mortars do kill unprotected enemy personnel. If you want to trial this, just create a blank map and place some mortar units on one side and some enemy inf units on the other and pound them for a while. Not a reall gaming challenge but a good test nonetheless. [;)]

Hvy wpns units like AT and AA do drop off from the assault, deploy and start firing as soon as they can see an enemy unit near the objective and they are within a range where they can deliver at least 50% of their maximum firepower. Eg. A flak unit with a max FP of say 50 at 100m could stop as soon as it got to a range where it could achieve 25 FP pts. Typically for flak this is around 1000m. The thing is they must be able to see a target close to the objective. Otherwise they will continue assaulting.

[Cage]

Thanks for the mortar info, what speed do they engage at?

Very interesting about AT and AA behaviour. I have noticed my worst casualites have been from unexpected angles or flanking fire nowhere near the objective. The gun unit just keeps plodding forwards taking casualties. So I'm guessing in real terms here, the 6 pounders must have to get pretty close to deliver half their firepower. Not sure how I'll use this info within game terms. Smaller assault distances I guess. It would be nice to be able to put gun units into the reserve

Cage.

[Cage]

Off this topic question. Does the AI ever use fast movement?

Cage.