Effect of DL on combat ?

[RoyalOak]

Hi all,
Some questions about DL :
- in the rules, (10.1), it is said that "The DL indicates very recent intelligence about the enemy and it is the DL that has an impact on combat results.
What kind of combat bonus can I expect ? Has anybody have a formula/number about this ? The rules only give one : the probability of knowing that an enemy ship is sunk = DL x 10%.
- Does the DL affects in any way the FOW in the combat animation ? (more precise report if the DL is high ?)
- Does the DL (that is, the level before the engagement) affects surface combat in any way ? (rules said that prior to engagement, each ship rolls for detection).

I'm just wondering if it's useful to use a lot of search/recon planes (as, per the rules, (10.1.1.1 Add 1 to DL : TF spotted by search aircraft (per aircraft that spots the TF - only notified of first plane each phase). I'm currently using the floatplanes in the TF's mainly as ASW assets. Can I expect better combat results if I let them in naval search ?

Also, how do I use recon flight to spot the TF ? Just leaving them in recon without a DH ?

Same questions about land combat : is it useful to send recon planes in a hex where combat actually took place ?

Thanks for your help,
Paul

[Xargun]

Recon is used for reconning bases - don't believe it has any other use..
If you want to locate ships, use naval search...

The DL of an item determines if it can be attacked or not.. The higher the DL of a TF the better the chance of it being attacked by aircraft within range.. It also determines if ships are identified or not - which affects attacks as well... A CV TF is always attacked over merchies...

There is a way to do broad land searched, but I don't remember how.. Perhaps Frag or Nik or such can remind us..

Xargun

[RoyalOak]

Thanks for the quick answer Xarg.
About the recon planes and TF, rules seems to say it has an effect (10.1.1.1 : Add 1,2 or 4 to DL : TF spotted by a recon flight).
Are the rules incorrect on this ?

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Recon is used for reconning bases - don't believe it has any other use..
If you want to locate ships, use naval search...

The DL of an item determines if it can be attacked or not.. The higher the DL of a TF the better the chance of it being attacked by aircraft within range.. It also determines if ships are identified or not - which affects attacks as well... A CV TF is always attacked over merchies...

There is a way to do broad land searched, but I don't remember how.. Perhaps Frag or Nik or such can remind us..

Xargun

For UV that statement is absolutely wrong, and I'd guess it's the same with WitP.

[Mr.Frag]

There are separate DL's at the TF level vs at the ship level inside a naval encounter. DL's assist in target selection but there are other factors as well. It is simply 1 of the factors.

Recon = land, naval search = sea.

[RoyalOak]

What about combat air missions ? Does the level of the DL of a TF affects chance an air strike will be launched ? That is, if I a have a level of 5, do I have more chances to launch an airstrike than with a level of 3 ? Does it affect the precision of the attack ? The number of planes launched ? The chance to have a coordinated strike ?
WHat's the meaning of "impact on combat results" in the rules booklet ?

Sorry to insist, but I will soon start my first PBEM game, and I want to give the best of myself [:D]

[Mr.Frag]

DL definitely affects how much is launched and or whether anything is launched.

Competing DL's can at times drive you nuts at times ... A Capital ship target can pull aircraft to it like flys to sh...

What *in* the group gets hit is also affected.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

DL definitely affects how much is launched and or whether anything is launched.

Competing DL's can at times drive you nuts at times ... A Capital ship target can pull aircraft to it like flys to sh...

What *in* the group gets hit is also affected.

Only problem with this is that if a transport TF and a CV Tf are both spotted equally, your planes will prioritise the CV TF every time I believe.. So unless you have a lot of bombers the transports will get away scott free... Sometimes its better to sink the troops than the CVs... but you don't get the choice...

Xargun

[Mr.Frag]

Sometimes its better to sink the troops than the CVs... but you don't get the choice...

It's a value thing ... pilots like glory ... they have ego problems ... not one born who will pass up a CV to go for a boring transport

[Joel Billings]

The DL of a base or of ground units is a big factor in determining casualties at that base or ground unit that result from enemy action (air attacks, naval bombardments, ground attack). It's always a good idea to recon and get the DL's of the enemy higher before and during attacks. Since according to the chart in the manual, ground combat increases the DL by just 1, I'd have to say that it is very important to recon enemy units before you attack them. I remember doing tests on naval bombardments. During these tests I found that units that were previously detected with high DL values were taking much greater punishment than those that had low (or 0) DL levels. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this is one of the most important and most overlooked aspect of the game.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Sometimes its better to sink the troops than the CVs... but you don't get the choice...

It's a value thing ... pilots like glory ... they have ego problems ... not one born who will pass up a CV to go for a boring transport

They bombed the Utah.[;)]

[Tankerace]

LOL... poor old target ship. Guess they found out 2X4s can't stop 800kg bombs, didn't they?

[BartM]

using the "recon" planes vs others able to "search", they have listed, Recon, Naval Search. to add to the questions, would any other plane be better at naval search then a recon plane ? or both are equal at determining DL ? a float plane that detects a surface contact is the same as a recon plane detecting the same contact ?

[RoyalOak]

Thanks Joel and Mr. Frag, that is exactly the answer I was searching.
One more : do the recon planes in naval search add 1 or up to 4 to a DL of a TF (that is, are they considered as search planes or recon planes) ?

Another about design : it seems pretty easy to have a DL of 10 on land units. All you need is just 3 recon flights with elit pilots, or 5 recon flights with average ones, and then just a flight the following days (as DL of a LCU cannot drop from more than 2 per turn if it stays in the same hex).
If you take a look at WWII history, it was FAR from being so easy :
- before D-day landings, allies do not know the presence of the 352th division on Omaha
- Market Garden : again, at just one hex distance (60 miles), the allies were not able to detect the 9th and 10th SS Panzer.

I will prefer a more progressive system. That is, it should be quite easy to gain the 2-3 first DL. The following ones should be a lot more difficult to reach.

There is at some extend the same problem with CV TF : the rules (10.1.1.1) say that DL is augmented by 1 if TF has carrier(s) launching a strike mission (per unit that attacks/escorts from TF).

So, even if I can completely surprise my opponent and ambush his CV (ala Midway), I'm sure to take a retaliatory strike, unless my first attack is able to put enough damage to prevent any launching.

Now let's see the following case : I have a DL of 2 on my opponent CV TF, and I'm undected. I launch a strike with 3 CV. Now, my opponent has a DL of 9 (assuming 9 airgroups are launched). So, if DL plays a great role in combat, his counter strike has a lot more chance to inflict serious damage than my initial one.
The AAR i've read seems to confirm this : in the first game between Rroberson and Xargun (newbies AAR), the jap CV were ambushed two times. In both cases, US CV take a lot more damage.

This can also be the explaination of the strange result of another of Rroberson CV battle (thread is here). In sending his recon planes in air strike mission, the US player has just offered to his opponent a big boost in DL, and then was destroyed by the retaliatory strike.

Any toughts ?

Paul

[Mr.Frag]

DL's degrade quickly. Play #15 and ground your aircraft, watch everything in China that is not in contact with enemy troops vanish in a couple of days.