On busting bunkers and other things...

AStott · Post by **AStott** » Tue Jun 06, 2000 5:53 pm

Actually, this happened to me to, except that I had about 6-8 units in one battle disappear on me. Bad thing was that some were trucks carrying troops, so I could no longer access those units either. Even worse, one of the units in one of the trucks was my A0 unit. Nice thing was that I still clobbered the guy I was playing against. If we hadn't both forgotten to check how many turns were left in the game, I would have held more than just one of the three victory points when the game ended. As it was, the game was a draw...

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Tue Jun 06, 2000 6:12 pm

I would say that by the time we get up to some of the fortifications that have a fairly good size gun and several MG's, that in all likelihood we ARE talking about quite a major fortification. These are (or were) fairly common in Europe. The fort I was talking about was only armed with one cannon, 2 MG's and 2 mortars, easily the equivalent of most bunkers in SPWaW. And while it was fairly large, it certainly would fit tidily in a hex. I am inclined to agree with you about things like the log rifle pit, but it's really hard to say whether, for example, the coastal gun should be in a massive concrete blockhouse, or perhaps only in a hastily improved gun pit. I imagine there were plenty of both. Assuming that every fortification in SPWaW is a hastily thrown together shelter (where again, I am more inclined to agree with you) robs us of the opportunity to test ourselves against any of the famous 'lines', or even a good, solid border post. Maybe more variety/clarity of description is needed.

[This message has been edited by Seth (edited 06-06-2000).]

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Jun 06, 2000 7:59 pm

Try to save the game if you have disappearing units...that one has never been reported before. It sound like a pbem game, were you using passwords?

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:13 pm

In my case it was a simple WWII solitaire campaign. I'll look to see if I have a save still remaining from that game, probably later today.

Dean Robb · Post by **Dean Robb** » Wed Jun 07, 2000 5:17 am

Originally posted by Seth:
I would say that by the time we get up to some of the fortifications that have a fairly good size gun and several MG's, that in all likelihood we ARE talking about quite a major fortification. These are (or were) fairly common in Europe...Assuming that every fortification in SPWaW is a hastily thrown together shelter (where again, I am more inclined to agree with you) robs us of the opportunity to test ourselves against any of the famous 'lines', or even a good, solid border post. Maybe more variety/clarity of description is needed.

Good point. Some of the fortifications are self-explanatory: Rifle bunker, log machine gun nest, etc. Maybe there needs to be differentiation of fortifications, like concrete bunker or wooden bunker, with appropriate armor values.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Jun 07, 2000 5:28 pm

Sorry, my search for the phantom PZ38 was fruitless, the saved game is gone.

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Wed Jun 07, 2000 6:09 pm

I don't think it is always very realistic to have units disappearing on you. For example, in my Japanese campaign.. I target an AT gun with a tank in a range of 3 hexes, fire at it.. LOS clear and even making the AT-gun take casualties. What happens? Yes, the AT-gun disappear during the next turn, nowhere to be seen. I must say, I admire these japs, who under the surveillance of my tankers can sneak away to cover towing their heavy AT-gun, all invisible to my tankers.

I'm a sergeant in the artillery and know how heavy it is to tow guns manually, it takes time, sweat and lots of muscling (especially in rougher terrain) and it's not easy to sneak :-)Ok ok, the AT-guns are lighter.. but still.. if you keep eye-contact with a target you engaged it simply can't just disappear.

It is completely different with a mg group hiding in a forest, an infantry squad crawling around in rough terrain.. they can reposition, jump into cover, or whatever.. but troops handling heavier equipment that you caught sight of can't simply hide with the equipment and everything without you knowing where they are hiding

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed Jun 07, 2000 6:12 pm

I had a disappearing unit. I started a Gerry campaign in '39 but wanted an onboard SPA unit in my core force when they were due to come availible. I did not know the upgrade rules so I created a new unit witht the editor called place holder with a modified wespe to be availible in '39. The whole unit had an FO, 3 placeholders and an ammo truck. It was there for the first scenario. For the second, the place holders disappeared but the FO & ammo truck were there. OK, I thought, I guess my editing was hosed up. Then the next scenario, the FO & ammo truck disappeared and they were not edited! I have the games saved but I'm not sure if this is a valid situation since I edited.

------------------
An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Jun 07, 2000 6:55 pm

Larry, are you doing your little cheat in order to try to get some artillery to actually be 'in contact' in '39? I wouldn't do it, but if that's your reasoning, we're sure thinking along the same lines, as I was thinking that SPA might stay in contact, which I mentioned in another thread. BTW, does it?

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed Jun 07, 2000 7:28 pm

Originally posted by Charles22:
Larry, are you doing your little cheat in order to try to get some artillery to actually be 'in contact' in '39? I wouldn't do it, but if that's your reasoning, we're sure thinking along the same lines, as I was thinking that SPA might stay in contact, which I mentioned in another thread. BTW, does it?

No. I read your other thread. I made this up before I even knew of the "in contact" problem. I just wanted a SPA unit complete with FO & ammo in my core. Since it was not really supposed to be in the force structure in '39, I just deployed it off to the side and did not use it. Then it disappeared so I have not yet had a chance to play with SPAs to see if they have better contact chances.

I understand that with the patch I can start out with towed howitzers then upgrade to SPA so this will not be a problem. I just wanted to confirm that I've had units disappear and let Matrix know that I have the games saved if they want them.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Jun 08, 2000 5:00 pm

The patch makes it much easier to suppress teh living daylights out of forts and entrenched troops with heavy artillery. But when you lift the barrage to attack, you better get there quick becasue depending on their morale, they will "shake it off" and re-man their guns in a couple of turns.

Dean Robb · Post by **Dean Robb** » Sat Jun 10, 2000 5:57 am

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
The patch makes it much easier to suppress teh living daylights out of forts and entrenched troops with heavy artillery. But when you lift the barrage to attack, you better get there quick becasue depending on their morale, they will "shake it off" and re-man their guns in a couple of turns.

Which is EXACTLY the way it worked in real life! You're nearly quoting the Lesson Learned I read this afternoon on proper shock tactics (author's term). Shock the enemy, then run the infantry in RIGHT behind the shock (arty, tank fire, air strike, etc.).

The author even went so far as to say that it's worth running the risk of losing some of your men to artillery to close with the enemy before he can recover from his shock because a delayed assault will cost many more casualties.

Some graphic examples of the high cost of delaying the assualt were supplied...