How about kamikazes?

Gary Grigsby's World At War gives you the chance to really run a world war. History is yours to write and things may turn out differently. The Western Allies may be conquered by Germany, or Japan may defeat China. With you at the controls, leading the fates of nations and alliances. Take command in this dynamic turn-based game and test strategies that long-past generals and world leaders could only dream of. Now anything is possible in this new strategic offering from Matrix Games and 2 by 3 Games.

Moderators: Joel Billings, JanSorensen

User avatar
neuromancer
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 9:03 pm
Location: Canada

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by neuromancer »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
ORIGINAL: neuromancer
so the Japanese fell in love with the concept.

Thanks for adding some bizarre humour to the thread [:D][:D]

[:)]

The Japanese had a real problem with when something worked (sinking a CVE in this case), they would run with it even when it stopped being nearly as effective.

It is seriously debatable if the Kamikazee was really more effective than using the same planes as they were intended to be used. There were a lot of planes to get relatively few hits.


But after the US figured it some counter-measures, they weren't nearly as good.

But - apart from furious barrage of AA fire - there were NO really effective, kamikaze-specialised counter measures. I've read accounts of some US admirals who said that luckily for all war ended *before* any effective counter measure for kamikazes was invented. And something to the tune of paraphrasing famous Churchill quote "the only thing I was ever afraid were the subs" (insert kamikazes instead of subs).

Yes and no.

It was hard to stop entirely, this is true. But what worked very well was picket ships.

Admittedly the 'Polish Minesweeper' method (no offense to any Poles that may be reading) but it did more or less work.

As I said, the Divine Wind (fart of the Emperor?) tended to attack the first thing they saw. To return from a mission (period) was a sign of failure. So they would fly along and dive at the first ship they saw was a great way to succeed at the mission without losing honour. What it was not, was militarily meaningful.

As geozero pointed out, few Capitol ships were hit by them. Mostly they were Destroyers or smaller. The pickets.

I don't know if the pickets were organized specifically as 'trip wires' for the Kamikazees (I know military practice is to have picket ships anyway, but they could have had fewer ships, and mostly smaller ones for the Kamikazees to go after).

The dual advantage of smaller ships for the Kamikazees to dive after is that they would be harder to hit, being smaller, faster, and more agile. And if they did get hit, fewer people died, and the ship was easily replaced (the bloody economics of war).

I am sad to note that kamikaze attacks seem favorite, and nigh on unstoppable tactics of today's terrorists as well.

Circumstances are right for them.


But all this may *still* not be enough to warrant any special rules within the scope of this game, that much I agree with.

This game works with abstract values, and that's its beuty. Geo asked recently whether "jet aircraft" are modelled. They're not modelled as such, but any advanced aircraft in the game may be considered "jet" if that makes the player happy. If you build tank unit with attack factor 9 or 10, you're free to imagine it's Tiger. So, if Japanese player manages to research anti ship attack to 4 or 5 by '45, he can imagine it's dedicated kamikaze unit and that's it [:D]

O.

True, true.

Which is why the idea of just adding a few air groups to represent activating anything that could fly is reasonable, but without any special rules. As I said, technically these should be low quality units (barely trained pilots in mostly obsolete aircraft), but that would be a pain to code specially, so just activate 2 or 3 fee units, and call it a day.

War winner? Hardly. But it would probably be annoying.
User avatar
geozero
Posts: 1816
Joined: Wed May 22, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Contact:

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by geozero »

But - apart from furious barrage of AA fire - there were NO really effective, kamikaze-specialised counter measures.

After the first few Kamikaze attacks surprised the naval commanders, the reaction was typical American – swift and decisive. The US Navy equipped hundreds more AA batteries on their capital ships and carriers, and used more “picket” vessels and specialized destroyer AA platforms with hundreds and hundreds of AA guns of different caliber to deal with the threat. They also began using more and more of the proximity fuse shells for their AA batteries.

The US Navy, again in typical fashion, quickly employed new tactics and used ever more fighter aircrafts for CAP missions. They also switched from industrial targets in Japan to air fields.

These new weapons and tactics devastated the Kamikaze suicide pilots. As can be seen by the time of Okinawa, where 1900 Kamikaze aircraft only sunk or damaged 75-100 small ships with no major capital ship sunk or severely damaged can attest to the effectiveness of the AA barrages and the futile Kamikaze.
kamikaze attacks did some real damage, and accounted for more ships than "conventional" air attacks in last year of the war.


That’s because by 1945 most, if not all, of the Japanese carriers were sunk or severely damaged, and there were almost no trained carrier plane crews left alive. IN fact there were basically no ships capable of leaving Japanese docks due to the shortage of fuel. Similarly there were few land-based aircraft since the US forces had wiped out most of them.

So of course, the Kamikaze can be “perceived” as doing real damage, but in reality it was mass suicide in an unprecedented way. Very few capital ships were damaged or destroyed.

The Japanese could have trained all those thousands of so-called pilots to defend the home islands from the bombers (hell many were only trained for take-offs since they were no expected to return - what a way to instill confidence, huh?).

What's perhaps even more important, they shatered nerves of their opponents, reducing combat effectiveness.

There is no account by ANY reputable author or historian that the American commander’s nerves were shattered by the Kamikaze. While it is certain that the first waves surprised American Naval Commanders (much like the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor), it did not shatter nerves, but instead helped the US Navy from the lowly seaman to the top most commanders have a greater determination to utterly destroy the enemy.

Where do you get some of that stuff…
JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.
User avatar
Oleg Mastruko
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: geozero
There is no account by ANY reputable author or historian that the American commander’s nerves were shattered by the Kamikaze. While it is certain that the first waves surprised American Naval Commanders (much like the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor), it did not shatter nerves, but instead helped the US Navy from the lowly seaman to the top most commanders have a greater determination to utterly destroy the enemy.

Where do you get some of that stuff…

From American books, mostly. Every respectable author says that kamikaze's effect on nerves (nerves, not morale!) of seamen subjected to daily kamikaze attacks was significant. Well, that much seems pretty obvious to me anyway... "Determination to utterly destroy the enemy" is one thing - having thousands of lunatics flying into your head *daily*, for weeks, is another.

Quote from Spector: "Take it from the voice of experience - warned one combat veteran - if my company makes one more invasion you had better tell the medical corps to be sure and have 42 straightjackets for there are only 42 of us left." (OK thiy guy is an army man, not navy, but you get the picture.)

I don't doubt this guy was "determined to destroy the enemy" but there's only so much a man - any man - can take.

And I never said "commander's nerves" - you put that in my mouth - commanders are supposed to be more collected than their men.

Read something about *non combat* casualties among *Navy* personel in Okinawa campaign. Translated = seamen who just couldn't stand doing the "picket duty" you try here to depict like almost some sort of vacation.

I'm surprised by stubbornnes you show when discussing anything, no matter how irrelevant, how small, or how much the "opposing side" tries to remain calm. Now here you "know everything" about various, relatively unimportant tidbits for a game you have never even seen, and you really know very little about.

I can hardly be motivated to continue this discussion, when, after all, I DO NOT argue that kamikazes must be included in WAW at all costs. I'm OK either way. But, to neglect they were vicious and powerful weapon, you are belittling efforts of allied seamen who had to withstand their attacks in *the real war* (not game).

Having said that - I see no need to argue more, we all said what we had to say, this thread is already counter-productive as regards the game development...

O.
User avatar
geozero
Posts: 1816
Joined: Wed May 22, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Contact:

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by geozero »

Oleg,

My firend, I did not know we were arguing, perhaps debating would be a better term. Anyway, I consider you Oleg a colleague, as much involved in games and military history as I am. That is why I presented information and opinions. Otherwise I would not care. Bu t I do care. I care about wargaming, about Matrix and about the games being developed.

I am well versed in many battles that we have discussed here on this thread and elsewhere. And I know that you are too, you sound intelligent, and I admit it is good to debate with you, as you do bring up good points and suggestions. Very few others are up to the challenge of discussions.

You are right I know nothing about War at War other than what I've read here in these forums. I am not a tester, and have no insightful knowledge, so I am at a disadvantage debating or discussing the game play with you. Which is why I look to you and other testers for information about the game.

Having said that, if there is an issue or suggestion made in the forum by a non-tester or anyone for that matter, which I feel I can add some viewpoint, then I feel compelled to state my opinion and facts as I know them - much as you would, and would hope that you do. Only from discussion of these issues can we sort out what may be a crucial or needless gaming requirement for the game. Wouldn't you agree with that?

I do not know why you feel that I've argued with you, and I hope you don't take the debates and discussions on these boards too personal. However, military history is in my blood for generations. My grandfather fought in WW1 and trained men during WW2, my dad and uncles were military men, as I was too. I don't profess to know every tidbit, but after you stated certain things, I looked over some of my reference material which contradicted a few things. No biggie...

I do not know the game as well as you do. That's why I'm in these forums - to read and learn. And hopefully to provide some other view points.

And I thank you for being frank and open in these discussions. Keep up the good work. I sincerely hope that you are not angered at me.
JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.
User avatar
Oleg Mastruko
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: geozero
And I thank you for being frank and open in these discussions. Keep up the good work. I sincerely hope that you are not angered at me.

No I am not, everything's cool... [8D]

O.
User avatar
geozero
Posts: 1816
Joined: Wed May 22, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Contact:

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by geozero »

Peace.
JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.
a19999577
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:53 pm
Location: Lima, Peru

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by a19999577 »

I'm glad to see things can be solved in a civilized manner! [:)] After some of the threads in the "General Discussion" forum I was beginning to lose hope...

Cheers!
YohanTM2
Posts: 986
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 5:43 am
Location: Toronto

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by YohanTM2 »

I think it was an excellent debate, heated at moments, or warm at least, but only as far as stating a position, not disparaging towards an individual.
a19999577
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:53 pm
Location: Lima, Peru

RE: How about kamikazes?

Post by a19999577 »

Yup, I agree. Very good points put forward. I am only sad because I didn't bring the subject up earlier, so it would have had a better chance of getting included... [:(]

Anyhow, after following this debate, I have become convinced of the "add x amount of additional air units when Japan is reduced to y territories [which, considering that Volksturm and stuff is already coded as well, shouldn't be that hard, I think...], and if you want to think they are smashing themselves against the US Navy, that's fine, because it's all somewhat abstract" position. [edit: I am not being sarcastic, btw] No need for special rules.
Post Reply

Return to “Gary Grigsby's World at War”