kamikaze

K G von Martinez · Post by **K G von Martinez** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:11 pm

Some more informations about the Mistel:
as far as I know they were used only in the attempts to destroy the Soviet Oder-bridges in the last days of WWII(they were seen as very valuable targets, some German pilots made suicide attacks there, too). This way you could bring a far bigger payload of explosives against your target. Furthermore it requires only the amount of fuel for one way of the bomber, and aircraft fuel was very scarce in the last days of WWII in Germany, but there were many planes who were grounded only by lack of fuel!

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:55 pm

Originally posted by AbsntMndedProf:
Toundra posted:
As I understand it, the FW sat on top of the HE-111, which was packed full of explosives. The pilot of the FW would 'fly' the combination craft until he got in range of his target, then he would release his HE-111 payload and guide it by remote control into the target.

This could be simulated in the game by giving the fighter slow speed, large size, one piece of the biggest bomb available, or a custom made very large rocket. The former case would be usable in an exported scenario, while the latter might be more accurate reflection.

AbsntMndedProf · Post by **AbsntMndedProf** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:23 pm

Here is a webpage with some pics of the Mistel beasty:

http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/luftwaffe/inside/0887406688.html

Eric Maietta

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:39 pm

Originally posted by kgvm:
Some more informations about the Mistel:
as far as I know they were used only in the attempts to destroy the Soviet Oder-bridges in the last days of WWII(they were seen as very valuable targets, some German pilots made suicide attacks there, too). This way you could bring a far bigger payload of explosives against your target. Furthermore it requires only the amount of fuel for one way of the bomber, and aircraft fuel was very scarce in the last days of WWII in Germany, but there were many planes who were grounded only by lack of fuel!

If I remember correctly they were used against the Bridge at Remagen.

The B-17 that Kennedy died in was a different system, manual take-off then radio controled to the target. The Mistel was flown from the piggy back fighter util it reached the target then released and radio guided to the target by the fighter pilot.

K G von Martinez · Post by **K G von Martinez** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 4:11 pm

Well, looked at home and found out that the Mistel was first used against the Mulberry harbours in Normandy, but not very successfully. Second use was in March 1945 against Oder bridges.
The Mistel had a payload of 1.5 to 3.5 tons of explosives, far more than the biggest German bombs.

K G von Martinez · Post by **K G von Martinez** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 5:17 pm

Another link, sorry only in German
Mistel
According to this the Mistel was notremote controlled, but depended on the targeting of the pilot before he separated with the fighter.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 8:15 pm

kgvm:

Well, looked at home and found out that the Mistel was first used against the Mulberry harbours in Normandy, but not very successfully.

This does intrigue me a bit, because I recall that the Mulberries were a big secret, however, one of them was knocked out due to harsh weather, or so the story goes. Given that it was secret, it would've been a pretty rude shock to some people to admit that one of them had been destroyed by a German secret weapon of sorts, or that it had fallen to sabotage.

I read a book once, sorry but I haven't the faintest idea of what the name of it was. But they had said that the big secret Norden bombsight was captured fully intact by the Germans and that the advancing Allies found it that way someplace. Only problem I had is that the way the book was written I couldn't tell if they were saying that this captured bombsight was proof that German bombers had the Norden sight on some or all of their bombers, or that given time that would've been the case. Anyone know if the Germans actually used that bombsight any? Perhaps only on the Arado 234? I'm sure most Americans wouldn't believe the Germans had one intact, much less that they may had got around to using it themselves. Anyone know?

K G von Martinez · Post by **K G von Martinez** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:05 pm

IIRC the Germans got the blueprints of the Norden bombsight in 1940 or 1941. They had a number of very successful spies in the States at this time.
Sorry, I wasn't able to locate my source at home (a book called "Das Spiel der Füchse"), so I cannot give more details.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:37 pm

kgvm: Thanks for the response. When you think of how that book I mentioned was wrote, that it was found in a German lab somewhere, it almost confuses me all the more. Saying the advancing Americans found it in such a place would tend to indicate that the Germans had not used it yet (but it would certainly shatter the myth that the US was the only one that had it), since you would figure the US would've examined most German airplanes and concluded what they believed all along that the Germans didn't have it. But, then again, one is supposing that the ones that found that bombsight in that one place were privy to knowing what was on all German aircraft, when that is actually very unlikely. In order to believe that it being found remotely would indicate it's not being used in the German air arm, one would also have to believe what the US said that they were the only ones that had it. If the US would've gone overboard to make themselves as the only ones that had it and possibly cover up any German use that had been made, why would they suddenly let or not let that information out at that point?

Another question strikes me too. If the Germans had it (particularly in some of their planes), then why didn't they expose the myth that the US was the only one that possessed it (and there might be reasons not to let the US know that you had one or many)? Also, did the Germans realize that the Norden bombsight was made such a big deal out of, in America? And if the Germans wanted to shatter that belief, be it that they were using them or just had one intact, would common Americans ever hear about it? I can understand not informing the public if you knew the Germans had one intact, in fact I'm sure they expected it would happen sooner or later, but what if the Germans were using them, particularly if extensively, is it wise then to try and act as though you're the only one that has it still?

It seems the fact that it was so esteemed they wouldn't even let the British have them, but just because they weren't keen on giving that bombsight to their Allies, says nothing for it possibly being captured by the Germans, no matter how much emphasis crews were trained to destroy the thing when going down or landing in enemy territory.

If the blueprints were available to Germany in the time you indicated, that would probably mean that if it was placed on planes, it might've been restricted to AR234s, HE177s, ME262bs etc. Of course the bombsights might've been able to be changed on more planes that that, but if the Germans captured it then, wouold they have been thinking at that time how great it was? I could see it just lying around in a lab somewhere for a long time, because until the US went to strategically bombing Germany, what would tell the Germans that it was necessarily such a great thing? Would they even bother to build one and test it? Would they be politically motivated to claim it as inferior to their own and then ignore it?

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:43 pm

Originally posted by Charles_22:
kgvm: Thanks for the response. When you think of how that book I mentioned was wrote, that it was found in a German lab somewhere, it almost confuses me all the more. Saying the advancing Americans found it in such a place would tend to indicate that the Germans had not used it yet (but it would certainly shatter the myth that the US was the only one that had it), since you would figure the US would've examined most German airplanes and concluded what they believed all along that the Germans didn't have it. But, then again, one is supposing that the ones that found that bombsight in that one place were privy to knowing what was on all German aircraft, when that is actually very unlikely. In order to believe that it being found remotely would indicate it's not being used in the German air arm, one would also have to believe what the US said that they were the only ones that had it. If the US would've gone overboard to make themselves as the only ones that had it and possibly cover up any German use that had been made, why would they suddenly let or not let that information out at that point?

Another question strikes me too. If the Germans had it (particularly in some of their planes), then why didn't they expose the myth that the US was the only one that possessed it (and there might be reasons not to let the US know that you had one or many)? Also, did the Germans realize that the Norden bombsight was made such a big deal out of, in America? And if the Germans wanted to shatter that belief, be it that they were using them or just had one intact, would common Americans ever hear about it? I can understand not informing the public if you knew the Germans had one intact, in fact I'm sure they expected it would happen sooner or later, but what if the Germans were using them, particularly if extensively, is it wise then to try and act as though you're the only one that has it still?

It seems the fact that it was so esteemed they wouldn't even let the British have them, but just because they weren't keen on giving that bombsight to their Allies, says nothing for it possibly being captured by the Germans, no matter how much emphasis crews were trained to destroy the thing when going down or landing in enemy territory.

If the blueprints were available to Germany in the time you indicated, that would probably mean that if it was placed on planes, it might've been restricted to AR234s, HE177s, ME262bs etc. Of course the bombsights might've been able to be changed on more planes that that, but if the Germans captured it then, wouold they have been thinking at that time how great it was? I could see it just lying around in a lab somewhere for a long time, because until the US went to strategically bombing Germany, what would tell the Germans that it was necessarily such a great thing? Would they even bother to build one and test it? Would they be politically motivated to claim it as inferior to their own and then ignore it?

Another question comes up, did the Germans have a need for the Norden? Consider that the HE 177 was their first attempt at any thing remotly resembling a stratigic bomber and it had dive bombing capability. It occurs to me that the German bombing philosophy precluded the need for a high altitude bomb sight.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 12:13 am

pbear: Yeah you're right, but that might fit into the political umbrella somewhat. It also perhaps fits into the specific area I mentioned, where they might've considered it too inferior to mess with, particularly when dive-bombing was the big thing for them. I don't think the AR234 was ever built with dive-bombing in mind and I certainly wouldn't expect that of the ME262B.

As to what the book told me about that bombsight being intact in some sort of laboratory, was it there by itself, or was practically every nation's bombsights examined there, etc? In other words, someone who wants to focus on the uniqueness of the Norden might disregard what the Germans were commonly doing with enemy equipment, or indeed what they were doing in that labratory also. To the people in the laboratory, for whatever reasons, it may not have been anything too terribly noteworthy to them, unless of course they heard what the US thought of it, and then there might be the matter of at least trying to make the US look bad in some way.