Rampant pro policy thread

[The MSG]

I whine by not purchasing...

Then again UV wasn't really my cup of tea, so that can have something to do with it as well. [;)]

[wodin]

This is a cut and paste from a post of mine in another thread. Its more relevant here.

The only worry I can see at the moment with Matrix games is the price issues. I for one have no problem with them, I know what I buying and that I'm going to enjoy the game. However its doubtfull I would spend slightly more than normal on a game genre I didnt even know whether I'd like it or not. Especially as it is a download which then limits its second hand value in my opinion. Just a thought. Im seeing so many people being put off by the price of BiN and WiTP that its starting to worry me. These people are either newbies who are needed in this hobby or are old timers who just arent willing to part with money for a game they have been waiting for which is alos a worry. So many companys are falling by the wayside in the Game industry that every game sold counts.

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'.

Firstly, that 33.99 is NET of VAT.. they STILL havn't fixed that, despite multiple complaints the last time. You pay £39.94.

Secondly, whatever the "RRP" for Doom 3 is, the price across the usual range of online retailers AND stores was £25 to £35.

Granted I have no problem in paying more for BiN than Doom 3 (a tenner in my case), but it's not quite the value buy you suggest.

They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick.

Oh I know about the discount thing on Doom, I was trying to make a point about the price of a mass-produced game versus a niche/specialist game ....... but I might have missed the target[:)]

[Hexed Gamer]

There really is only one danger with high prices.

If a Matrix Games title is worth it it's worth it.

But, and just so people don't think I am some nut only interested in being right, if the game is represented elsewhere, and someone put it out for less, then the consumer is going to pick the cheaper item in most cases.

For comparison purposes only, and there is no garantee I will get a bang on analogy, in the realm of grand strategy, I am currently inclined to put up Strategic Command against anything else WW2 grand strategic.
Now SC is not full global, but it is definitely a seriously good purchase, both price wise as well as satisfaction wise.
It comes in at 19 bucks Canadian on the shelf currently, but entered into the market a couple of years back at 29 bucks I believe.
Compare that with other offerings in grand strategy.
HoI comes in at twice that. Even if you like the game, it is still twice the price. And no, I never thought it was half as good let alone twice as good as SC.

Currently we have Gary's game A World at War under construction.
Looks good. But it will be competing with SC2 for my dollar. And if SC2 comes out substantially lower than A World at War, odds are I will not be concerned that one is not full global in simulation.

The biggest barrier to price is not whether the price is high, but whether we actually even need the item.

I own the real World in Flames. The board game. Naturally having it on a computer will be "handy". But how far can handy be stretched. That's the question. Is it worth buying the game at a high price, just to replace the board game?

BiN looks to be a good purchase, but, if the person is a die hard player of TOAW, you better really have a good reason to buy a game, that the person can already effectively represent on the other game.
WW2 only has so many decent events to simulate. And TOAW can simulate each and every one of them.

Title redundancy is the only danger Matrix Games is going to really have to deal with.
People don't buy what they don't need.

HTTR, a great game, the only thing special about it though, is the command system if you ask me. Otherwise, I already own games for Operation Market Garden.
I only bought HTTR for the specifics of the games design.

I don't think the average gamer is going to see a price and go, "oh I couldn't possible want that game", half as much as "oh wow, yet another game where I invade Normandy as the Allies somehow".

If the hobby doesn't keep a supply of inovative "ways" to game coming, that more than actual price will influence it negatively.

It's just a matter of time before the 3d real time notion becomes been there done that to a point where it is no longer enough to move a title.

[tracer]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Well hell isn't it obvious Tracer

Who forgot to send Tracer the memo hehe

Heck, no one told me...how the hell you been?

Some of Hexed Gamer's statements didn't seem quite 'Les-like', so it took me a while to catch on.
Anyhow, here's a 'welcome back' gift for your new persona. [:D][:D][:D]

[Hexed Gamer]

cute Tracer hehe, but I am sorta fond of the japanese school uniforms

Lets see, the old me retired. He was last seen I think somewhere in the South Pacific. Muttering something about New Zealand.

Well considering how crummy the early summer was.

I am just me these days. I still get around.

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: tracer

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Well hell isn't it obvious Tracer

Who forgot to send Tracer the memo hehe

Heck, no one told me...how the hell you been?

Some of Hexed Gamer's statements didn't seem quite 'Les-like', so it took me a while to catch on.

It's the old 'stream of conciousness' (or unconciousness[:D][:D]) style of the posts which are a dead giveaway really. I was just too polite to say anything before[;)]

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick.

In fairness the "small print" was actually quite large, but your post and the fact I only read it (the small print that is, not your post) because I was looking for it make the point nicely.

I'm sure it's not dirty tricks, but it is starting to verge on obstinate stupidity. I'm not sure if it's Digital River or Matrix, but somewhere it still just isn't sinking in that the headline price should be VAT inclusive for products aimed at consumers rather than businesses (who can reclaim it). It WILL lose Matrix both goodwill and repeat business... but we have made the point so many times now without a satisfactory response.. well, it's their loss [:(]

[David Heath]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'.

Firstly, that 33.99 is NET of VAT.. they STILL havn't fixed that, despite multiple complaints the last time. You pay £39.94.

Secondly, whatever the "RRP" for Doom 3 is, the price across the usual range of online retailers AND stores was £25 to £35.

Granted I have no problem in paying more for BiN than Doom 3 (a tenner in my case), but it's not quite the value buy you suggest.

Well we did fix it as best as we could. The prices DO NOT show VAT and when you enter the store you are warned of that. But we did change the store so that you are not charge until you see the WHOLE price including the VAT charges as well.

David

[Larac]

MHO

Wargaming is a hobby, one which I enjoy.
I have about 30 Boxed war games, at least 30 mini games rules, 12 armies in miniature for said games.
A host of RPGs, a large collection of German Board games.

Very few any one peice was over 50 dollars.

But I spent well over 600 on a set , Rules, Mini, paints and terrian.

Now I saw Matrix a few months back, looked over the products and read the fourms. Found BIN and was told to expect good things. I like WWII, so I Bought it day 1.

It hurt my hobby allowance I give my self, Fixed Income now, when I collected most of the stuff listed I was in much better shape in all ways. Pre car wreck days.

Is BIN worth 60?
Hours of Entertainment/price

I think BIN will turn out to be a great investment for my war gaming hobby.

Most games retail at 40-50 in the states, then bargin down quickly.

BIN I see being a direct product only will not decrease in price for a long time, if ever. SO buying day 1 does not make me feel cheated later on.

It is a large amount for a single game, yes. But I expect to have 6-20 new quality sessions added by the community before a year is out. That for me triples the game appeal.


to each thier own, but 60 feels right for the game,
Lee

[Erik Rutins]

Eric,

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames
They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick.

Oh I know about the discount thing on Doom, I was trying to make a point about the price of a mass-produced game versus a niche/specialist game ....... but I might have missed the target[:)]

We made the text regarding VAT very obvious and we laid out BEFORE the last screen (whereas the setting DR had before was just fine print on the final screen) what the VAT charges were by country. Because of the differences, we don't know the exact price until we have your address.

We also added an actual VAT Pop-Up window so that (unless you have a pop-up blocker), you CANNOT miss the fact that VAT is not included in the prices.

We also changed the structure of how the store works. Initially, DR had no final confirmation screen that showed all charges (including VAT) before the final acceptance and transfer of payment. Now that screen exists.

This is as good as we can get with this store and I think that it provides ample information to warn the customer that VAT will be applied as well as to give them a chance to review and cancel if they want based on the VAT charge.

Moreover, we also fixed the conversion problem that was causing some prices in other currencies to be either higher or lower compared to the expected exchange rate.

Regards,

- Erik

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: Larac

Most games retail at 40-50 in the states, then bargain down quickly.

In Australia, most top notch games, are released at AUD89. Even the junk games are often released at AUD89

BIN is less than that and therefore a bargain.

But it is more than a bargain. It is one of the best wargames ever. It’s predecessor, TAO2, was played for years by dedicated wargamers.

If no games follow BIN, BIN will be played and new scenarios created, for 5 years or more!

If I were to get DOOM 3 ( and I will not) the box would be thrown away immediately. I am sure the controls are simple, so the manual would soon follow. All I want is the CD, a DVD box to store it in and a shelf to store the DVD boxes.

Can’t imagine what any body wants a box for.

But I do understand the argument – no box and no printed manual so there ought to be savings. And the counter argument is that the savings get eaten up by the low sales of wargames generally.

Both good arguments.
-

[bostonrpgmania]

well
If not anybody wants the box, why matrix games sells boxes?
There are demands and there will be supply
as simples as that

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


We also added an actual VAT Pop-Up window so that (unless you have a pop-up blocker), you CANNOT miss the fact that VAT is not included in the prices.


- Erik

Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could.

" We made the text regarding VAT very obvious and we laid out BEFORE the last screen (whereas the setting DR had before was just fine print on the final screen) what the VAT charges were by country. Because of the differences, we don't know the exact price until we have your address"

1) You have separate order screens for the UK and the rest of Europe and since the UK rate is fixed you should be able to display the price with VAT.

2) On the initial order screen with the games available there is no mention that the prices quoted are pre-VAT. I then click 'add to cart' and the following information is printed -

"*Information about VAT
Any digital products sold into the European Union include a VAT (Tax) charge of 17.5%.
Any physical products sold into the European Union include a VAT charge. However the VAT rate, and hence the total price, may alter once your shipping destination has been selected.

For customers from Austria 20%, Belgium 21%, Denmark 25%, France19.6%, Germany16%, Ireland 21%, Italy 20%, Netherlands 19%, Spain 16%, Sweden 25%, and UK the national VAT rate of 17.5% will be applied. For all other EU customers, the UK VAT rate of 17.5% will be applied.

A VAT invoice can be viewed and printed at the end of your purchase."

imho, this is not clear, it states that the price includes VAT but since the order screen is supposedly UK only (other EU citizens would surely use the 'Europe' order screen) one could quite easily presume that the initially quoted price included VAT.

Think of it this way, the first page is your 'shop window', it lists the products you have available and the price. How would you feel if you walked into a shop, saw an item you wanted to buy, took it to the checkout at which point the shop assistant told you that the item you wanted was 17.5% more expensive than as priced 'out front'. Imho your 'shop window' should at least boldly state 'Note: These prices do not include VAT'.

I dunno, maybe it's just me

[MadDawg]

Personally I dont have a problem with the pricing at all...people know it up front and can decide if its worth the purchase based on the information at hand. It will either work or not based on sales, and people will vote with their wallets one way or another.

What I *personally* do have a problem with is the state WITP was released in. It was buggy and even the tutorial could not be completed without a consistant crash to desktop. If I am paying a premium price for a game, forgoing the box, manual and even CD I most certainly DO expect a game to be polished when I receive it. Many games pull this off at normal prices and I do not want to play the part of a beta tester for a product I paid top dollar for.

And that is the reason I am not purchasing BIN at this point. Not becuase of the price, I would have paid double for a polished version of WITP but because, in my opinion, I expected a more solid product than what I recieved for my money.

Dawg

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick.

In fairness the "small print" was actually quite large, but your post and the fact I only read it (the small print that is, not your post) because I was looking for it make the point nicely.

I'm sure it's not dirty tricks, but it is starting to verge on obstinate stupidity. I'm not sure if it's Digital River or Matrix, but somewhere it still just isn't sinking in that the headline price should be VAT inclusive for products aimed at consumers rather than businesses (who can reclaim it). It WILL lose Matrix both goodwill and repeat business... but we have made the point so many times now without a satisfactory response.. well, it's their loss [:(]

No I don't think it's a 'dirty trick' either but I was on a roll and we all know what it's like. Anyway, I replied to Erik Rutin's post first (that 'roll' thing again[;)]) but I hope you concur.

And apologies to 'Hexed' for hijacking his thread.

[David Heath]

ORIGINAL: bostonrpgmania

well
If not anybody wants the box, why matrix games sells boxes?
There are demands and there will be supply
as simples as that

We did it so gamers without high speed internet can still get the games mailed to them.

David

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

And that is the reason I am not purchasing BIN at this point. Not becuase of the price, .........but because, in my opinion, I expected a more solid product ......

Of course WITP is made by 2by3 and BIN is made by SSG - 2 different companies - Matrix is only the publisher.

[Hexed Gamer]

Hijacked thread Eric?

I wasn't aware I owned it hehe

Silver linings ah ya gotta love em.

It sucks being poor, but it isn't all down side.

By the time I finally get the money for almost any game, you more well off people have often already bought it months ago, and already reported on all the initial headaches.

I hope you eager types now I appreciate your sacrifices

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could.

I use FireFox as well. When a site attempts to pop up a new window, you will see an "(i)" icon like this in the bottom left of the browser window:

Double-click on the "(i)" icon and a dialog will pop up showing you the site that is attempting to open a pop-up window and you can select "Unblock" to allow the site to do that. It's also possible (and quite easy) to set the block/unblock for specific sites through the Tools > Options > Web Features menu.

Regards
33