First Winter Counterattack

[a19999577]

I'm following the Case Geld AAR and this issue has come up. How does this work? Does it give the USSR an additional 'edge' during the first winter it fights against the Germans, in addition to the regular effects of Winter?

We all know that Winter 1941-1942 was particularly hard on the Germans. But why was this so? Was it because (A) it was a particularly harsh Winter or (B) because the Germans failed to prepare for it, believing that 'major combat' would be over before Winter? Or would adequate German Winter preparation have reduced its effect, despite the harshness of the Winter?

If the designers believe it was (A), then wouldn't its effect have to be limited to that particular Winter (Win '42 in the game?)?

If it were (B), then why would an invasion launched in Winter have to suffer from the same effects, a year later? All troops would have started with Winter equipment, and experience from those early months would surely aid them for the next Winter.


Then again, if it's a matter of play balance, then I find that equally valid (as this is a game, after all)

[Becket]

I will have to look at the rule again...I *think* it's an additional defensive bonus for Soviet troops, but I must confess I haven't read the rule in a while.

One could debate the impact of winter forever, but to me, the game assumes that Barbarossa still suffers the same flaw: the belief that the USSR could be defeated by defeating the existing Red Army forces massed in the west. Halder thought they'd won the war in July of 41. He was wrong. The Germans entered the Russian campaign completely unprepared not just for a winter battle, but to fight a long term campaign of any sort. For my money, the "First Winter" rule reflects part of the adjustment process to a total war footing in the east. The regular winter rule reflects more of the "Rasputitsa" type effect.

[a19999577]

Makes sense. The 'first Winter counterattack' rule when applied to an attack launched the previous Winter could simulate German logistical weariness or something, not necessarily lack of preparation for Winter itself. Unless the Axis player has stockpiled huge amounts of supplies and has repaired all rail connections...

What would happen if the Axis player did a much more *cautious* Barbarossa? As in he attacks one or two turns and then explicitely sets up a 'defensive perimeter' and ceases to advance, ensuring that all his rail is fully repaired? Would the Axis player still be penalized? The Clash of Steel Russian Winter rule penalized Axis units according to how far east they were, so an Axis player setting up a 'defensive perimeter' wouldn't have as much trouble.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: a19999577

What would happen if the Axis player did a much more *cautious* Barbarossa?

He gets creamed. [:D] Seriously, the German player cannot afford to have the Russian campaign last more than 6 turns, as by that point the canny Soviet player should have massive forces coming on line.

I will look at the rule later tonight and post about exactly what it does...I've just forgotten the details.

[Becket]

As promised, here are the winter rules, which are modifiers to the evasion rating of a unit being fired at (cumulative):

Here's the regular winter rules, they apply in all cold weather areas, not just the SU.
+1 when defending in a cold weather area during a winter (Jan/Feb/Mar) turn (unless a German unit in a cold weather Russian Nationality area during the first winter turn following a German declaration of war with Russia)

Here's the special first winter turn counterattack rule (penalty to German defense and bonus to Soviet defense)
-1 when a German unit in a cold weather Russian Nationality area during the first winter turn following a German declaration of war with Russia
+1 when defending in a cold weather Russian Nationality area and shot at by a German unit during the first winter turn following a German declaration of war with Russia.

[neuromancer]

As a note, some large scale games for the Russian front have two winter rules.

Usually there is he standard rule, it gives an advantage to the Germans initially because they hit so hard and fast. But the obvious drawback of this tactic was that they weren't prepared for a long term campaign, so when the winter sets in, they take damege, or the Russians get a bonus, or whatever.

There are also often the Von Paulis rules. Apparently Von Paulis had advocated caution, ensuring that the supply lines were adequate for the offensive (he was apparnetly over-ruled). If this rule is used, there is no first turn advantage, and no winter damage either because the Russians are so over extended.

I don't know if this is feasible in WaW, its just a thought.

Personally I always thought that the Germans should have realized early on that their supply lines were over extended, and withdrawn back a bit to shorten their supply lines, and strengthen their defensive lines. In the spring they could have returned to the offensive. But Hitler was a nut.

There have been some arguements about whether Germany every could have 'won' the war. Some have stated no, but not because they weren't capable of it (although they had such supply issues that it is questionable), but rather because Hitler was in charge. Really, if they had got rid of Hitler in Spetember '39, or maybe sometime in 1940, the Germans may have been much more dangerous. As if they weren't already dangerous enough.