Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

[mogami]

Hi, Just to report that my airgroups are working correctly now. They return with 0 aircraft and 0 pilots.

[Brady]

"There is no precedence for converting floatplane pilots to Betty Pilots or transport pilots to fighter pilots. "

Historicaly their is, as noted in Japanese Naval aces and Fighter Units in WW2, these units or men inroled in the traing programes for these units did in part convert to fighters.

Howeaver this is realy mute, as Mogami has noted the system he has come up with will work, while not entirely historical, as the whole upgrade rotune for the Japanese is not Historical, the system if managed will give you better than the Japanese got.

[esteban]

ORIGINAL: Drongo

2. Do hard core research on the A6M5/A6M8/A7M2.
If it is possible to upgrade a squadron from the A6M5 to the A7M2, then skip research on the A6M8. (I haven't been able to determine if you can skip an upgrade.)

The units with A6M5s can upgrade directly to the A7M. They do not require the A6M8 to have been researched or available before hand.

Cheers

Has anyone beside Drongo been able to go straight from the A6M5 to the A7M2 Reppu? I just want confirmation on this, as I am setting up R&D for my PBEM game.

[Erik Rutins]

Just bumping this useful thread...

Regards,

- Erik

[ZOOMIE1980]

This whole thread, editted, would make a good Appendix for a manual modification....

[DBS]

Actually it does. I takes a 12 to 18 month process down to a 9 to 15 month process. Time reforming is unproductive time. Japan cannot afford unproductive time. Reforming a squadron should take less than 90 days imo, probably more like 30. Maybe the Grognards could debate it, but 90 days seems excessive.

I think the problem here is not the aircrew - represented in the game individually and with whom we understandably get obsessed - but the groundcrew. This also applies to the debate over whether there should be an Experience loss for upgrading. As Elf notes, a pilot may not have too much problem converting from one aircraft type to another, at least within the same role. For example, plenty of RAF pilots early in the war made quite rapid changes from Gladiators to Hurricanes easily enough. They just sometimes had a problem remembering to lower the undercarriage... But the groundcrew now have to master a new aircraft, probably a new engine in particular. I have often wondered whether the 4th Fighter Group's familiarity with the Spitfire ever had any bearing on its famous conversion from P-47 to P-51 in 24 hours.

Anyway, the point I am long-windedly making is: under what circumstances will the Disband/Reform option usually be used? If it will normally be used by, say, the Allied player for units stuck in the Phillipines or DEI in 1942, then the 90 days rule is reasonable - some aircrew might escape but most of the poor groundcrew were historically lost. However, how many Allied players use this option? I have so far had no problem in slowly evacuating air units even from restricted HQs.

If therefore this Disband/Reform option will be used primarily by the Japanese player for Mogami's training scam micons/m16.gif then consideration should be given to reducing the time-lag on reappearance for this option only, to say 30 days.

David

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Production thoughts:

Transport Aircraft:
In general, transport aircraft should have the lowest attrition level of any aircraft in the game. They don't get shot down very often, and you should be able to minimize operational losses. In other words, you shouldn't need to have a very big pool of these guys sitting around. You should produce what you need, with a reasonable cushion, then convert production to other types. If it was possible to convert all transport production to the MC-21, L3Y, and H6K2-L, I would. Unfortunately, the only upgrade path available is one that makes little sense, so your job here is to get a big enough pool and use the factories for something else. Specifics follow:

1. Change production of L1N1 Thora
The TBO for the L1N1 is 84 a/c, yet you already have 34 in squadrons and 111 in the pool. Building 5 more a month seems like a pittance, but that is 10 Nakajima engines and 270 HI saved.

2. Convert Ki-54 production to researching another type after producing approximately 60 of them.
You need 48 a/c to upgrade one squadron of Ki-59's and bring your replacement group into play. Adding 12 more gives you a replacement pool. One month of Hitachi engine production then convert to Nakajima, and two months of Ki-54 production, then convert.

3. Produce another two months on the MC-21, then convert to another type.
You have one fully equipped squadron of MC-21's and get no others. You are only producing for the replacement pool here and you don't need that many for it. Producing two more months gives you a pool of 12 for 12 aircraft that should never see combat. If you run out, you run out. Meanwhile, same reasoning as on option 1 above.

4. Double production on the H6K2-L
The H6K2-L has long range, can deliver to dot bases, carries more than any other transport, is durable and armored. The tragedy is you only get two squadrons of this one - 24 a/c with only 8 a/c in them to start, a pool of 8, and production of 2 per month. With no operational losses, you will get your squadrons to full complements in April or May. Personally, I'd rather have this capability sooner and be able to sustain some losses, so I will double the production (to a whopping 4!).

5. Double production on one Ki-57 II Topsy plant and convert the other.
You get 168 Topsy's and 10 per month seems like a decent production rate for them. However, that production is split between two plants. I would double one plant to 10 and convert the other to diversify production on another aircraft or use it for research.

6. Leave the L3Y production alone for the first 6 months. Multiply your operational losses in the first 6 months by 12 and add 36. Stop production when you get to that number.

Torpedo Aircraft
1. Research the B7A.
The B7A is the best Jap torpedo plane. With a top speed of 352 mph and a TBO of 543 a/c, getting this one a few months early can make a difference.

2. Increase the production of the B5N.
At 20 per month, you can replace the aircraft losses of a days operations from KB every month. Granted, KB will not be losing 20 a/c everyday, but 20 is nowhere close enough. I plan to increase production of the B5N to at least 80 a/c.

Recon aircraft
Recon aircraft are important - as important as the skill of your fighter pilots. Nothing is more deadly than information and nothing provides more information than your recon planes. The better they are (and the better their pilots are) the better your strikes will be, the better your warning of invasions will be.

1. Halt the H6K4 plant and let it convert on 1/1/42 to H8K, then restart it and increase production to 16 or 32. You can halt the H8K later when you have a large enough pool.
As good as the H6K4 is, the H8k is better. It is faster (fater even than both the Claude and the Nate), has longer range, is more durable, has more defensive armament, and is more manueverable. Personally, in Jap shoes, I would have considered creating a bomber version of it. That aside, I highly recommend getting your H6K's replaced with H8K's asap. Remember, if you can see it coming, you can react. This guys can give you 2 extra turns of warning on an invasion fleet and that is priceless.

2. Double Ki-46 Dinah II production
The Ki-46 is a big upgrade for the Ki-15 Babs - 77 mph faster, 10 more durability, and a hex longer range. At game start you have 20 of these guys, but putting your *starting* squadrons at full strength will require 186 aircraft, then another 117 for your upgrades. Oh, and you have air-to-air losses and operational losses on top of those. With 31 a/c producing, you will take 6 months to get all of them operational with no losses. That is too slow. Double production to 62.

3. Convert the Ki-36 to something else.
I posted already about the Ki-36 being a dog. With a top speed of 216 miles per hour, this is just a death trap for pilots against any location with CAP. Use them til they are dead since they don't upgrade to anything else. If they can be used for ASW, do that.

4. Halt or convert C5M production to something else.
The C5M upgrades to the J1N1-R Irving in October 42. The pool on this aircraft is small, but you only have 27 TBO on them. If losses mount in this squadron, draw it back until the J1N1-R is available.

5. Don't research anything in recon.
Despite the importance of recon aircraft, there aren't enough of them to get bang for your buck here and the upgrades that can be researched are not significant enough. The best recon aircraft will be the Ki-46 III and TBO for it is only 303 a/c. In the meantime, the Ki-46 is a more than serviceable stopgap until you get the Dinah III in 1/43.

LBA
YOur current LBA is fairly good compared to your future LBA. The improvements are noticeable, but you are in okay shape. Given the upgrade paths in place, no model is a big enough upgrade over it's ancestor to warrant accelerating arrival dates.

1. Halt Nells and let them convert to G4M1 on 1/1/42, then restart.
You save 20,000 supply and the HI. Let the game upgrade you for free in return for delaying production a bit. Pools for both the Nell and the Betty are very large and you can let the Nells and Betty's range against naval targets early without fearing CAP as much, so it isn't really critical to convert G3M's to G4M1's early. You definately want these guys fully stocked, but they are overstocked with big pools to start with. Only when the G4M2 comes in should you try to build large pools of aircraft, since it is a terminal upgrade.

2. You might want to halt the Ki-21 for a while and see what happens.
With a pool of 401 a/c you can lose alot of a/c before you need to think about restarting. If losses get too large, you can restart the plant.

Float planes
1. The E7K2 Alf should be halted.
It has 140 in the pool already and 140 in operation. Evaluate the need for replacements after 6 months and look at what will be needed for new construction, then convert or restart as appropriate.

2. Consider cancelling the F1M2 Pete.
With a tiny range, the Pete is not all that useful for naval search. I plan to put every one on ASW. Given that, I am going to evaluate the need for replacements, build up a pool of them, and stop when I get the number I think I need. Since the majority of losses from this plane are going to be operational losses and going down with the ship, I do not plan to have much wiggle room in my stockpiles of it.

3. Consider canceling the A6M2-N completely.
I have never seen anyone extol the virtues of this aircraft. I probably need to look at it's mission options, but unless I can be used as an armed naval search, recon, or ASW, I probably will never have more than the one operational squadron I can get from the pool I have at start.

Fighter Bombers
There are only 3 Jap FB's and the A6M5c has no upgrade path. The only candidate for action is the Ki-102a Randy (TB0 = 468 a/c), which is the upgrade for the Ki-46 II KAI Dinah (60 a/c), the Ki-45 KAIb Nick (36 a/c), and the Ki-48 Lily (336 a/c). Another 36 a/c come as a reinforcement. The biggest hit on the Randy is a smaller bombload than the Ki-48. It is faster, vastly more manueverable, more durable, armored, longer ranged, and better equipped with guns. The Ki-48 can carry a torpedo, but the Randy can't. I would be tempted to research this one if I felt I could afford it. I put a premium on aircraft that give aircrews a better chance to survive. and the loss of bombload, while significant, is offset by the far superior ability to deliver it to a target. I dont't know if I will actually upgrade it or not, but I definately will give it some thought.

Fighters
This is the most complex category of aircraft, the place wehre you will research the most, and the place with the most opportunity for an impact upon Japan's fortunes in the war. Put simply, the faster you get better aircraft into your front line squadrons, the fewer pilots you will lose. Get the best fighters you can as fast as you can.

1. Increase A6M2 production.
There are 239 a/c operational now, you need replacements for them. Another 330 Claudes need to be converted to A6M2's. I plan to at least double my production of A6M2's.

2. Do hard core research on the A6M5/A6M8/A7M2.
It is all about pilots and numbers of aircraft. By the time you are done, you will have 1910 aircraft in Claude/A6M2/A6M5 squadrons. The faster you get upgrades - any upgrades - the more pilots you will preserve. If it is possible to upgrade a squadron from the A6M5 to the A7M2, then skip research on the A6M8. (I haven't been able to determine if you can skip an upgrade.)

3. Do research on the Ki-43 IIa Oscar.
No, I am not nuts. If you look at the upgrade paths for the Ki-27 Nate, they mostly go to the Oscar - and then nowhere. Unfortunately, there are around 1000 Nates that upgrade to the Oscar. The Oscar is not a bad aircraft, but by late 43, it will suck. It has *very long range*, more guns than a Nate (though still undergunned), is faster, more manueverable, and can carry a bomb. The sooner you get it, the more opportunity you will have to exploit it's strengths - and in more numbers than any aircraft other than the Zero series.

4. Ignore the Shinden
No. Again, I am not nuts. The Shinden is an upgrade to the George and the Jack - both of which are comparatively good aircraft with longer legs than the Shinden. You are better off upgrading 1900 odd A6M's early with A7M2's than you are if you upgrade 465 Jacks and Georges.

Dive Bombers
1. At least double production of the D3A Val
See notes on the B5N. Same deal.

2. Research the D4Y
See notes on the B7A. Same deal.

Was curious to note that when you covered fighters you mentioned nothing about the Nates being produced on turn 1. Do you leave these alone??? I have seen many discussions about converting them immediately to something else. Will you run out if you do this???

[esteban]

I usually convert the larger Nate factory in Gumma to production of Kates. I tend to leave the second Nate factory in Harbin as Nates, though I halt production. There are 710 Nates in the replacement pool at the start of the game, and that is enough for quite awhile, without having to build more. I do not know if Nate casualties jump dramatically in late 42, or not, so I keep the second facility around in case I need to produce some more to tide me over until the Oscar 2 arrives.

The Harbin factility converts to Oscar 2 production, which is nice to help speed the upgrade from the Nate to the Oscar 2.

[Oznoyng]

Hmmm... yep, I just missed it. All things being equal, I would probably convert those to A6M2's, but I have become more cognizant of IJA/IJN rivalry since then. Switching Nates to Zeros would probably not go over well with the IJA. If assuming the limitation of the IJA/IJN rivalry is important to you as the Japanese player, I would put both Nate plants into researching Oscars, or simply halt them until Oscars were ready to produce.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: esteban

I usually convert the larger Nate factory in Gumma to production of Kates. I tend to leave the second Nate factory in Harbin as Nates, though I halt production. There are 710 Nates in the replacement pool at the start of the game, and that is enough for quite awhile, without having to build more. I do not know if Nate casualties jump dramatically in late 42, or not, so I keep the second facility around in case I need to produce some more to tide me over until the Oscar 2 arrives.

The Harbin factility converts to Oscar 2 production, which is nice to help speed the upgrade from the Nate to the Oscar 2.

the gumma facility does not convert to Oscar 2's as well???

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Hmmm... yep, I just missed it. All things being equal, I would probably convert those to A6M2's, but I have become more cognizant of IJA/IJN rivalry since then. Switching Nates to Zeros would probably not go over well with the IJA. If assuming the limitation of the IJA/IJN rivalry is important to you as the Japanese player, I would put both Nate plants into researching Oscars, or simply halt them until Oscars were ready to produce.

....also what do you do with the claudes on turn 1? let them auto convert like the nells?

[Oznoyng]

I convert them to Zeros.

[2ndACR]

The Claudes I convert to A6M2 turn 1 and increase the size to 16. By the time they auto convert I will have already
produced some a/c from it and be on my way to full production.

The Gumma factory will also convert if you want to wait that long.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

! usually convert the larger Nate factory in Gumma to production of Kates. I tend to leave the second Nate factory in Harbin as Nates, though I halt production. There are 710 Nates in the replacement pool at the start of the game, and that is enough for quite awhile, without having to build more. I do not know if Nate casualties jump dramatically in late 42, or not, so I keep the second facility around in case I need to produce some more to tide me over until the Oscar 2 arrives.

The Harbin factility converts to Oscar 2 production, which is nice to help speed the upgrade from the Nate to the Oscar 2.


The Claudes I convert to A6M2 turn 1 and increase the size to 16. By the time they auto convert I will have already
produced some a/c from it and be on my way to full production.

The Gumma factory will also convert if you want to wait that long.

doesn't the oscar II not come out until 1943? i thought factories did not auto-convert after 1942.

[edit] nope im wrong the manual says after 42 they auto-convert whenever the next aircraft upgrade is researched.

[2ndACR]

Punt for Tophat.

[Tophat]

bump for kevini!

You'll find that aircraft engine question you have answered in this thread!

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The problem with allowing massive anhistorical changes in aircraft production is the player is able to look at the numerical values for a "future" aircraft (or game it out in a different scenario) then go back in time and otimize production in an omiscient fashion. The decision-makers could not have known these things for sure without protoypes or even combat use.

The history of military aircraft is replete with failed ideas that SEEMED like a good idea at the time (insert your favorite lemon here). There is the additional issue of turf battles on iaircraft production decisions...and perhaps..I dont even know in 1940's Japan...the profit motive.

Still...if it balances the fight in 44-45 it might be fun.

I just finished reading this thread - lots of valuable advice, especially from oznoyng and mogami, great job, folks.
There is, however, a tendency I noticed of people insisting that historical practice be followed faithfully. There even seems to be some amount of code in the game to urge players (gamers) in the same direction. Well. IMHO, playing WitP (or pacwar, for that matter) along historical lines is not quite gaming, it´s more like reenactment. It´s also a bit pointless. I mean, all the allied player has to do is from 1942 on to hunker down in India/Burma, Australia and PH/West Coast, preserve his forces (he can´t do much else anyway) and wait for 1944 when his numerical superiority will enable him to steamroller the Japanese into the ground. Winning any scenario from, say, March 1944 on for the Allied side is a no-brainer. I remember playing around with the Phillipines scenario as Japanese in pacwar - hopeless even when I wielded the power of The Editor. I grew tired of seeing strikes of hundreds of Bettys, Frances, Peggys, Judys, Graces in 80+ experience units throw themselves at a US carrier task force just to suffer a 90% loss rate in exchange for single bomb or torpedo hits. This is, I understand, quite historical. The Japanese cause is so hopeless that Gary Grigsby had to invent the automatic victory concept (US throws its hand in because the voters can´t stomach the losses anymore) that is highly suspect historically (there was just too much patriotic/racist fervor worked up in the US population to make anything except total destruction of Japan acceptable as end to the war) just to generate a Japanese "win". If the game limited us to investing the hundreds of hours the full campaign takes just to come to a preordained end it would turn boring fairly quickly. IMHO, the game should allow for scenarios with significantly altered startoff conditions (alternate history resp. counterfactuals) and give plausible results even when the game should veer far off the historical track. It doesn`t do that as it is now. For instance, Shinano and Ibuki will be built as carriers and Ise and Hyuga will be converted to half-carriers no matter how many carriers you have actually lost. The player should be able to have a choice what path his shipbuilding takes. Same goes for aircraft production. And for the japanese player the training level of new pilots automatically degrades quite irrespective of resource levels and pilot loss rates. Somebody elsewhere in this thread suggested incorporating a training scheme that would produce pilots at a constant level of training if you can afford to give it enough resources and time. That would be a good thing. Automatically degrading pilot quality the way it did historically is a bit like having the A-bombs explode in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 even if the Allied player didn`t own the Marianas or have any B-29s combat ready. Nobody would accept that.
At least, WitP is improved in that respect compared to Pacwar, which wouldn´t even upgrade the armament on the four Japanese Midway carriers if by any chance you didn´t lose them (they were sunk at Midway, right? So no need to upgrade them in 1944).

Sorry for the rant, but some of the grognards can wear you down.

[esteban]

Wow! Paragraphs are your friend!!

[byron13]

ORIGINAL: esteban

Wow! Paragraphs are your friend!!

MikeMike just has fewer but bigger friends, that's all.

[Greco, Thomas A]

For those of us that take your article as the production bible, may I suggest that you identify the city for each airframe factory suggested for shut down or retooling. You identify engine factories well, just do the same for the rest of the production pipeline. It took me 7 hours to set up Jap turn 1 in my most recent PBEM and too much of that time was endless recycling throught Jap cities looking for Ida and her siblings. Also I fully expect (or at least fervently hope) that you will update article for June 1942 and thereafter.