German strategic alternatives '43-'45

[m39 white death]

Having gone through this game many times, and assuming both players are playing straight up and honest, it appears that the Germans will get crushed in the air starting with the appearance of the Yak-9 and culminating in the obliteration of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front with the appearance of the La5fn in March of '43. If you add several months for refit and training of new planes, the Soviets will be able to field well trained (65 exp or higher) full (200+planes) formations of fighters in mid '43 and can attrition the Fw190A squadrens at 2-1 and still grind them down. Once the P-51 appears, the Germans really will be unable to put any kind of force against the Soviets as they will be losing Fw190's at the rate of 100+ per turn just to the USAAF.

Consequently, complete Soviet air supremacy must occur in late '43, resulting in the destruction of German forces on the Eastern Front and the loss of the game. It appears to me that the only way to stave off total collapse would be to begin research of the Fw190D early on, perhaps late'41 once it appears that Moscow can't be taken. With two full factories put on research totaling 40, the Fw190D should appear in Dec of '43, right about the time the P-51 shows up.

I would like any input on the viability of this strategy. Again, assume both players are playing honest and Moscow was not taken in '41.

[JagdFlanker]

interesting! have you experimented trying to see if you CAN get the D9 that early using your described method? if it is relitively reliable, then it sounds like a great plan!!

having just compared the original 3.3 german - sov fighter production with deniss's new aircraft he did up for the mod i was very pleased to see that with the extra Bf 109G and the Fw 190A5/A8 the germans keep a general fighter dogfight superiority until january '44 instead of early/mid '43. i guess that fighter production will dictate what the actual advantage is!

anybody know off hand when the german airforce really started to hurt in the war?

[Denniss]

The original game version did not have newer/better models for the Me109G and Fw190A series and they are needed to simulate available planes undergoing constant development (that's why I included the 109G6 and more 190A versions) .
It was included for the russian side - see LA5FN or LaGG3-s33 or more Yaks but not for the german side .
And with only 40 points of research you'll only have a 40% chance of the Fw190D arriving 1 week earlier - you'll need much more than only 40 points

The german planes have usually always been better than the russian planes unless production was hampered by bombing(late 1943+) so some special resources(strategic materials and oil/fuel) have not been available and by lack of good pilots

[DiRaC]

Guys, I don't quite get how the reseach works out. I thought that even you set some of your factories to reseach, the chance of getting the new type earier is pretty low. Someone said it also depends on the resource and heavy industry you owned. I don't how the reseach point comes out. Can someone explain to me?

[Denniss]

Count all factories you set to research for Fw190D together (their size) and this will be the percentage of receiving this plane one week earlier .

Example : You set three factories with size 12/9/5 to Fw190D research do 12+9+5 = 26 = 26% chance of receiving the Fw190D one week earlier .

Heavy Industry is needed for factory growth - the more HI the faster a factory growths unless its capacity + production cost ( capacity 10 + prod cost of 7 gives 70) reaches a set value or exceeds HI

[DiRaC]

Thank you!
But the thing I still confuse is that the percentage is only for one week earlier? What is the difference if I set factories to research one month before and one year before?

[JagdFlanker]

max factory size= 75/unit price. but a factory has a small chance of still growing a little past the max size by 2 or 3 more points, i think.

[JagdFlanker]

i just notice there's a problem with using the factory capacity as a measurment to get early production - i change any factory to Fw 190D and it's production is reset to 0! so i might guess that the chance is hard-coded somehow, and mabe each factory has a chance to roll a dice below a certain number to win a week's early grace. i have never seen any info anywhere's aboot it!

[Denniss]

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

i just notice there's a problem with using the factory capacity as a measurment to get early production - i change any factory to Fw 190D and it's production is reset to 0! so i might guess that the chance is hard-coded somehow, and mabe each factory has a chance to roll a dice below a certain number to win a week's early grace. i have never seen any info anywhere's aboot it!

Please check via Pool -> Fw190D9
It seems in city display only the real production is displayed but not research

[m39 white death]

The two factories I'd convert in the winter of '41 would be the He111 factory and the Vienna Bf109 factory, which should give you a production/research of around 40. As I understand it, that gives you a 40% chance each turn that the arrival of the Fw190D will arrive one week early. So, you move the arrival date up on average four turns for every 10 turns. Thus, if you begin research on the first turn in January of '42, you should have the Fw190D at the end of '43 based on probability.

Implementing this strategy is an attempt to pull a draw as the axis player by preventing a catastophe in the air which will begin in the middle of '43. Relying on the Me262 is a problem because it cost too much and can be attritioned. I think the best move would be to research the bf109k, but it doesn't appear on the research list. Since it only cost 3 instead of 4, you can raise the research probability to 50 instead of 40 with the same two factories, meaning it should arrive in the fall of '43. This would guarantee axis air parity in the east and west for the balance of the game.

[Denniss]

What version of WIR are you using ?

If standard WIR 3.3 make sure you use an editor to give the Me109G mvr/dogfight of 23 and Fw190D a cannon rating of 10

[agors]

ORIGINAL: m39 white death
Implementing this strategy is an attempt to pull a draw as the axis player by preventing a catastophe in the air which will begin in the middle of '43. Relying on the Me262 is a problem because it cost too much and can be attritioned.

Hi Air Force Leaders [:D],

everybody argues against the jet-fighter Me262 because it's too expensive. That might be true but on the other hand much more jets will return home after fighting. You wrote about their attrition. What do you mean? Actually I thought this is more a problem for teh traditional fighters.

Any comments[&:]?
Andreas

[Denniss]

The problem is you won't get enough Me262 to fill all your units so you have to have something fighting in the air that's good and cheap to maintain Air Superiority (at least partial AS) then you have some free resources to produce Me262 .

[m39 white death]

I'm going to do some research on fighter production and variation in the next few days. I'll be checking production numbers as well as trying to ascertain whether the values used in the game are accurate. I believe that in evaluating combat strength for a fighter, speed and climb rate should be given the most, if not all, consideration. Thoughts?

[JagdFlanker]

i found this, if this helps you or denniss - yes it is for a game (air warrior), but it could help a little!

http://www.musketeers.org/Aircraft.htm

of coarse, you could just steal denniss's ootstanding stats!