Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition

[Adam Parker]

Rule 17.1 talks about amphib units having a dice or a number of dice icons in their unit control area to be rolled against when landing for attritional losses. Nice idea.

Q1. If a unit has more than 1 step and only 1 dice shows, does this mean that only 1 step is ever at risk of attrition?

*****

The number in the hex icon next to the dice represents the range at which the enemy can cause an attritional roll once landed.

Q2. The rule states that any enemy unit of any type within the range will contribute to the attrition roll. So do supply units and other non-combat units roll for attrition?

Q3. Does this rule mean that each enemy unit actually rolls once against each dice listed?

Q4. If yes to Q3 does this mean that more than 1 attritional loss can be caused from 1 dice or do the rolls for a particular dice stop once its number is rolled regardless of there being more enemy units capable of rolling?

*****

Lastly, the rule mentions: "Strongpoints within the displayed hex range of the landing unit will contribute to the chance of attrition. Since only the the number of steps is important, destroying a single step Strongpoint has the same effect as removing one step from a three step fort, or killing a step from a unit."

Q5. Is this last sentence a typo? Should it be there? It really makes no sense to me given the context of the rule!

Thanks,
Adam.

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Rule 17.1 talks about amphib units having a dice or a number of dice icons in their unit control area to be rolled against when landing for attritional losses. Nice idea.

Q1. If a unit has more than 1 step and only 1 dice shows, does this mean that only 1 step is ever at risk of attrition?

Yes, each die present represents chance of a step taking attrition. 2 dice = 2 steps will be at risk. etc...

*****

The number in the hex icon next to the dice represents the range at which the enemy can cause an attritional roll once landed.

Q2. The rule states that any enemy unit of any type within the range will contribute to the attrition roll. So do supply units and other non-combat units roll for attrition?

Its the total number of enemy steps that matters. Think operning scene of Saving Private Ryan... more steps within range (hex icon next to blue die), more chance of catching hell during the landing. Strongpoints, Forts, and Units contribute equally to the number of dice calculation.

Q3. Does this rule mean that each enemy unit actually rolls once against each dice listed?

No, see above. It's the collective chance of catching hell during the landing.

Q4. If yes to Q3 does this mean that more than 1 attritional loss can be caused from 1 dice or do the rolls for a particular dice stop once its number is rolled regardless of there being more enemy units capable of rolling?

N/A

*****

Lastly, the rule mentions: "Strongpoints within the displayed hex range of the landing unit will contribute to the chance of attrition. Since only the the number of steps is important, destroying a single step Strongpoint has the same effect as removing one step from a three step fort, or killing a step from a unit."

Q5. Is this last sentence a typo? Should it be there? It really makes no sense to me given the context of the rule!

Its exactly correct. See above. More steps within range, more likely another die will be there.

Thanks,
Adam.

[Adam Parker]

Oh I think I get it.

Say a US landing unit has a dice of 6 and an attrition range of 4 hexes. It lands and say 12 enemy steps are within this 4 hex range, then there will be 12 separate dice rolls by the enemy and if any one of them is a "6", the US unit will lose 1 step?

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Oh I think I get it.

Say a US landing unit has a dice of 6 and an attrition range of 4 hexes. It lands and say 12 enemy steps are within this 4 hex range, then there will be 12 separate dice rolls by the enemy and if any one of them is a "6", the US unit will lose 1 step?

Adam,

There's a calculation (details specified in editor by scenario designer) that counts number of enemy steps within the range set by the scenario designer. The total number of enemy steps present is divided by a factor (again set in editor by scenario designer). The result is the number of dice the unit has to throw for attrition during landing.

In your example a "6" on the blue die means only a die result of 6 will cause attrition step loss. The number of blue dice present in the unit pop up is the number of attrition rolls that will happen.

In BIN you see "5" on the blue dice during D-Day landings. This means a die result of 5 or 6 will result in an attrition step loss to the landing unit.

JSS

[DBeves]

JSS - I think what is confusing is that the manual seems to imply that there is a direct correlation between the number of steps in range and what the number a die roll required will be...ie something that the player can work out looking at the map.
eg.
four enemy steps in range = a die roll of x for each step.

Haven't played with the editor yet but does this mean that a gamer cant directly work out what the die roll will be before he reaches the beach ? and what the effect of eliminating a step that is in range will be on the attrition die rolls in the display..

Makes it a little difficult to work out priority targets for navel fire during the first turn.

Also ... can the formula vary at each beach or is it a scenario wide thing ? ie does a step in range at omaha lead to a different die roll than for a step in range at Juno ?

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: DBeves

JSS - I think what is confusing is that the manual seems to imply that there is a direct correlation between the number of steps in range and what the number a die roll required will be...ie something that the player can work out looking at the map.
eg.
four enemy steps in range = a die roll of x for each step.

Haven't played with the editor yet but does this mean that a gamer cant directly work out what the die roll will be before he reaches the beach ? and what the effect of eliminating a step that is in range will be on the attrition die rolls in the display..

You actually can figure it out as you know the range to count steps and you see the number of dice the units going to have to endure (lucky you can move off the beach before landing if you see all four dice on a four step unit!).

Makes it a little difficult to work out priority targets for navel fire during the first turn.

Key here is to open the landing hexes first. Then only fire on strongpoints/forts influencing landing hexes (Carentan may be the one exception to this rule).

Also ... can the formula vary at each beach or is it a scenario wide thing ? ie does a step in range at omaha lead to a different die roll than for a step in range at Juno ?

There was only one formula to enter in the scenarios I'm building. There is something where the range of steps influencing the landing changes over time(?) that I missed when building the scenarios. Will have to go back and look into that piece.

[DBeves]

Thanks for the answer JSS...
I like the bit regarding the editor being able to reduce the range over time .... merely because along with some of your answers to some other questions it seems the editor is capable of some very useful and nifty things as far as scenario design goes.

But I am still a little unclear over the whole beach attrition thing...
If I land a four step unit at sword and two enemy steps are in range what does this equate to as far as the die rolls go ?
Does it mean only two dice will be rolled - and what determines the number on the dice themselves.
Or does the two steps in range lead to a die roll against all for steps but with a higher number on the die roll ie a lower probability of damage than if three steps were in range?
And by way of example what difference is made to the above example if I manage to eliminate one of the steps.
As far as I can see there are two things at play here - 1. The number of Die that are rolled and 2. the actual number on the die to cause casualties.
Ive looked everywhere - uncluding the editor and can't seem to find the actual formula explained. Is it as far as you know ? or is it an internal calculation the mechanics of which are not revealed any where yet.

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: DBeves

...it seems the editor is capable of some very useful and nifty things as far as scenario design goes.

[:D]

But I am still a little unclear over the whole beach attrition thing...
If I land a four step unit at sword and two enemy steps are in range what does this equate to as far as the die rolls go ?
Does it mean only two dice will be rolled - and what determines the number on the dice themselves.
Or does the two steps in range lead to a die roll against all for steps but with a higher number on the die roll ie a lower probability of damage than if three steps were in range?
And by way of example what difference is made to the above example if I manage to eliminate one of the steps.
As far as I can see there are two things at play here - 1. The number of Die that are rolled and 2. the actual number on the die to cause casualties.
Ive looked everywhere - uncluding the editor and can't seem to find the actual formula explained. Is it as far as you know ? or is it an internal calculation the mechanics of which are not revealed any where yet.

DBeves,

Believe the beachlanding attrition is set (no editor fields or adjustments to be made).

Airborne drops follow the same process for attrition. This data is set by the scenario designer in the editor. See section 4.6.1 Drop Zone Data Details in the editor guide pdf for explanation & example. The beachlanding calculation is identical to the airborne landing calculation as I understand things.

Think of attrition landings as catching hell events. The more enemy steps around, the more hell your units will catch![X(] The landing unit "rolls the dice"; the collective enemy steps in range merely determine how many dice must be rolled. The most dice your unit can ever roll is one for each of its steps (i.e. a 3 step unit influenced by lots of enemy steps will never roll more than 3 dice... one for each of its steps).

If the catching hell factor means three dice will be rolled at the landing site... a four step unit will only roll three dice, a two step unit in the same landing stack will only roll two, and a one step unit in the same landing stack will roll one die.

JSS

[Black Cat]

I had a complete 4 step 29th. Infantry unit lose all 4 steps upon landing on Omaha. It had 4 blue dice showing and was within 3 hexs of 4 German units. This is the first time I have seen this in many restarts but it did happen.


Usually you will lose 1-2 steps at Omaha. Sometimes 3.

While this is just opinion, and I do like the Game, I think the Beach losses can be too heavy at times, especially if you get poor Die Rolls on the Naval Bombardments.

[marc420]

Hmmm, might want to watch Saving Private Ryan again. Actually, my impression was that maybe the damage to units coming ashore might be too light. I could easily the units that hit Omaha, like say the 116th Regt of the 29th Div ((???)) getting hit very hard. Having one of these units eliminated or knocked down to say 1 step would not be too unhistorical. Those first wave regiments, engineers and tanks at Omaha were hit very, very hard.

Just thought of something while typing. The DD tanks the Americans used were almost completely destroyed in the landing. Most sunk, the few that might have made it to Omaha were under 88 fire. Seems like maybe those units survive too well in BIN.

But as usual with SSG's work, the overall effect seems pretty close to correct.

[willgamer]

Here's 2 odd things I've discovered so far playing the Allies on Omaha:

1. Cheesy but- you can run a unit, say one of the tanks, along the entire coast exposing the landing attrition cost for each hex before commiting any other units. Plus the tank will still have enough mp to still land on turn 1!

2. I used the naval bombardment to exclusively destroy strongpoints. Easily eliminated all within 4 of that beach hex toward the middle of Omaha that's farthest away from the Krauts. That hex then showed NO landing fire from forts, only from 1 German unit. Great hex to bring in the entire landing (again, except for the cheese)!!!

[DBeves]

I think your first point is actuall intended in the design of how the game works....

To turn the thing round a bit ... I for one would be for hiding the attrition rolls completely from the player ....
Display them after at least one unit has actually landed (Only for that beach) might be slightly more acceptable ... but the whole bit about a unit being able to select the least dangerous beach hex on a grand tour of those available is unrealistic and unnecessary within the game system.
As far as all I read ... where a unit was going to land on D-Day - down to the actual yard - was predetermined and they were going to land there no matter what... the only variations from this were due to veering off course accidently.
At least for the initial assault wave the beach hex tey land at should be pre-determined and to a very large extent unchangeable by the player. And only after they have landed should the player be given the attrtion die rolls - so that some leeway is given for follow up units to change course based on information received from the initial landings

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: DBeves
... I for one would be for hiding the attrition rolls completely from the player ....

Totally agree.

In fact only through play can this rule really be worked out. Basically, an amphibious unit approaches the beach and at the time it comes within the attrition range of the enemy a dice or number of dice will appear in its unit info.

The number of dice directly correlates to A FORMULA involving the number of enemy steps in range.

As enemy steps in range are reduced - say through naval bombardment, the number of dice applicable to a unit will decrease (not the number on the dice) - but as it's formulaic not necessarily 1 for 1. A single dice may equate to 3 enemy steps in range etc. Working this out exactly, is nigh impossible for the player.

Regardless, if the player wishes to bring these amphibious units ahore with dice showing on their info screen, these units will be required to roll that number of dice. There will never be more dice showing for a unit than a unit has steps. For each dice rolled equal to or greater than its number shown a unit will lose a step.

JSS - this entire rules section needs to be re-written! Thanks to all the guys including Gregor on the Run5 thread "Coming Ashore" for indirectly helping me see the light. And for your efforts too.

But yes DBeves, definitely hide this info from the player to avoid gamey tactics and ensure fate as it was.

Adam.

[PresbyterJohn]

I don't think the die should be hidden at all. You must know what sort of a situation you are sending the troops into when the shooting starts. If it's too hot then you don't land. You just shouldn't be allowed to recce the beaches with a lone landing craft.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Prester John

I don't think the die should be hidden at all. You must know what sort of a situation you are sending the troops into ...

I'd respectfully disagree. The only operational decision we should receive as a commander is where to land pending our estimation of the best position for destroying the enemy and progressing to establish a beachhead inland.

Once the first wave lands and takes damage, then it is for us to estimate what to do with the next - bring them in or hold off, apply more protective fire or delay the build-up.

It is then for the skill of the commander to locate quieter sections of the landing zone for exploitation. By trial and error.

Giving the player full info regarding the range of enemy influence and the amount of that influence is just too much aforethought imo.

The battery at "The Manor" threatening Utah for example, wasn't deemed or known to be a threat until the landings were well underway and then dealt with by the 101st in response. Here, we "know" of it up front, as we know the range of all enemy units/steps that will pose a threat the landing zone the second we loiter off shore and as a result, we can then assign preparatory naval fire against it (I envisage it as the coastal fort directly to the west of central Utah).

Just my .02 but imo a very exciting rule and mechanic nonetheless. The second I can put the new supply and OP rules under my belt I'm away with this game! Very glad I bought it but a struggle to divert the funds amidst the unexpected bills.

Adam.

[PresbyterJohn]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Prester John

I don't think the die should be hidden at all. You must know what sort of a situation you are sending the troops into ...

I'd respectfully disagree. The only operational decision we should receive as a commander is where to land pending our estimation of the best position for destroying the enemy and progressing to establish a beachhead inland.

Once the first wave lands and takes damage, then it is for us to estimate what to do with the next - bring them in or hold off, apply more protective fire or delay the build-up.

Then why have any control over the landing at all since it is not something the commander should have any control over? Just have the units appear on the beaches in their historical locations and take damage accordingly.

It seems to be one of the premises of the game that you have to be able to hold off on a landing if you want to. Not being able to see the hazard until after you have landed defeats this idea. And it goes hand in hand with the ability to re-position the fleet to provide supporting fire. It is an artificial construct but is does serve the purpose of giving the game a mechanism of altering the supporting fire to support the sections of the beach that are under the most intense defensive fire. If you can't see the dice when the landing craft approach the beach then you can't tell where the strongest opposition is.

[DBeves]

Prester....Nice to see you again

I agree with most of what you say...My argument is primarily about the initial assault wave - I think it perfectly proper that a player has the ability to alter where units land after this and have some idea of what the likely resistance will be at a beach where units have landed previously. The naval bormbardment example you give is a good one in that there are numerous examples on D-Day of destroyers steaming directly to support units on the ground.
My point relates to the player being able to glean all of this information before he has landed a single unit. I am fully aware that the game (as far as I know) has not been coded to allow a separation between the initial assault and subsequent follow up waves - and that this would likely be a big change. (I strongly believe that the initial assault wave of troops should not be allowed to change the beach at which they land - either by scenario design or by making the player choose a beach hex in game and force him to commit to only that beach).
I think that to predetermine the beach at which ALL troops land would be worse than what we have now but that only revealing the attrition die rolls after you have landed at least one unit might be do-able with respect to it not being a massive code change and that perhaps a change to the scenario editor introducing a flag for units that they must (or not) preselect a landing hex would givve a more realistic portrayal of events and limitations.
I make the point that had the US forces known omaha was going to be as diffcult as it was to get ashore because a full german division was cacarrying out a full landing excersice prior to this - would they have gone in at all...you point is extremely valid in that AFTER the initial landings they had the decision as to whether to reinforce or withdraw (something that came close to happening I believe) and the player should have that choice too.

[PresbyterJohn]

I don't think I would complain too much if the first turn was actually started half way through with the naval bombardment completed and all of the first wave landed. In this way the Allied player truly has no control over how the landings are executed.

However, if the Allied player is to have some control over what happens with the initial landing then he needs access to information about the defensive "firepower" that will be directed at each hex. This will allow a reasonable deployment of the naval gunfire. A unit moves onto a beach hex and accepts the odds and lands, or naval gunfire is applied in direct support until the odds are acceptable enough to make the landing. Making the die roll visible is the mechanistic equivalent of giving the Allied player the intelligence to deploy the naval gunfire.

Now if you are going to take that away you may as well take the whole day one landing away and automate it in the same way as the para landings are automated.

[Capitaine]

Personally, I like being able to delay landings if I see fit. Admit there's some unhistorical tactics here, but they may not be infeasible tactics. If the Allies want to wait till more of the beach is decimated, so be it. They delay landing that way.

BTW, I don't disagree w/ the logic of the opposite camp, but I just don't feel it is crucial to the game to enforce historical first wave landing sectors. The point about the targeting of the armada also bears on this: Should we then have no control over the "predetermined bombardment targets" of the fleet?

Edit: Some of you may recall Atomic's game "Utah Beach", where there was no landing b/c their thought was that the initial landing WAS predetermined. You started with the positions and losses incurred historically after the landing. If you want to do the landing itself, you ought to be able to make your moves as it currently stands in BiN.

[marc420]

Before the landings, the Allies had massive amounts of air recon photos of the beaches. Also, commando teams had been coming ashore at night to scout the beaches.

The allied commanders should have a pretty good idea of the fire power that could be directed at each beach hex, even on the first wave. I was just reading Ambrose's book, and I got the impression that the heavy opposition at Omaha was not unexpected. Both the Allies and the Germans knew that if the Allies were to land at this area, they had to land at Omaha.

After the first wave, the Allied commander would absolutely know which sectors of the beach were still under fire and how heavy the fire was. No need to lose a tank unit trying to go ashore to find out. German fire could be observed from ships, and the guys crouching under the sea wall say Hail Mary's could tell them the beach was under fire.

So, if for some reason you didn't see the dice roll numbers, then the game would need to have some other mechanism to tell the player the same info. I don't see any reason to think that at any point the allied commanders were just blindly sending troops to the beaches to see how much fire they would draw.

Maybe there should have been another overlay, kinda like the Penalty OP display, where the allied commander could see the amounts of fire each landing hex would draw. But to me, being able to see the dice rolls before landing is pretty much the same thing. It may look a little odd that a tank unit cruises up the beach until it finds its best landing hex, but in the bigger picture scheme of things to me this does an ok job of simulating what the Allied commanders would know.

If you want to limit the control over landing hexes, then that should apply to only a portion of the troops on D-Day. The first waves would pretty much have to roll in as planned, and probably could be out of the direct control of Bradley and Montgomery. However, the later waves on D-Day could have been diverted to other landing areas. On Omaha, for a stretch the naval officers in control on the beach halted all further landings for awhile due to heavy fire. And I believe there was discussion at Bradley's level of redirecting follow-up waves to another landing area. So anything that limits the player's ability to control landings chould only apply to a limited number of units.