Revamped German Strategic Options

[ritterkruz]

Like all the other fanatics out there, I've done a lot of reading about WW2. One of the more interesting books was based on Admiral Raeder's plans for a much more balanced and powerful surface navy... by 1941/2. This would include several more Bismarck class and a couple of good-sized CVs. Another book (oh yes, before the internet, there were b-o-o-k-s, remember?)[:D] detailed how Germany was well into the planning for a 4-engine strategic bomber. (No, not just the Condor; more like a super He 111.) One of these strategic alternatives, let alone both, may have pushed England over the edge, had they been made available in time. Does WaW allow for any such changes in the equippage of a major power's military forces? Is there much lead time for final production adjustments before the fighting breaks out?

[Forward_March]

I'm interested in this, too. Is there a Graf Zeppelin that is in production when the game starts? Do the Germans have more options than just trying to build tanks and more tanks like in Axis and Allies? (How I hated that game!) Moreover does Germany have the production capacity to build some decent fleet elements before it must turn to the enemy in the East?

[SpharV2]

Yes, the Germans start with a couple of powerful fleet vessels in production, one of which is the Graf Zeppelin. Normally I disband those units because the war against Russia will take precedence over all else before too long, but if you wanted to try, you could build up your navy for a showdown with England. Of course, considering how far behind you start, it would take a long while to catch up.As for modifying initial starting units, I'm not sure, perhaps one of the other beta testers who's been around longer could tell you. What you're referring to in the first post is the Z-Plan I do believe, but it wasn't planned to be ready before 1946 or thereabouts when the war was supposed to start. Remember, the first naval shots fired were from a WW I vintage ship sitting in Danzig, the German navy was still woefully unprepared for war in '39. And unless you've got the kind of unattackable production base the US has, a fast naval buildup is darn near impossible.

[Joel Billings]

Yes, the Germans start with a Carrier Fleet and a Heavy (Battleship) Fleet in production, due to arrive in the Spring of 42, and another Heavy Fleet in Winter of 41. Most players scrap (or postpone) these, but that's a choice you have to make. We actually make it easier than it was to build carriers and battleships, in that they take only 2 1/2 years to build from scratch.

The Germans can also research their heavy bombers into bigger, better bombers. All of this takes production points, and whether it's a good strategy or not is up to the players to find out.

As for making changes to the starting setup, there is no editor provided, but everything runs from data files. I expect the modders to put out additional scenarios by changing these data files. It's not that hard to do and we will encourage modders to do this.

[Montbrun]

...the "Amerika" bomber...

Brad

[Cheesehead]

Like all the other fanatics out there, I've done a lot of reading about WW2. One of the more interesting books was based on Admiral Raeder's plans for a much more balanced and powerful surface navy... by 1941/2. This would include several more Bismarck class and a couple of good-sized CVs. Another book (oh yes, before the internet, there were b-o-o-k-s, remember?)[:D] detailed how Germany was well into the planning for a 4-engine strategic bomber. (No, not just the Condor; more like a super He 111.) One of these strategic alternatives, let alone both, may have pushed England over the edge, had they been made available in time. Does WaW allow for any such changes in the equippage of a major power's military forces? Is there much lead time for final production adjustments before the fighting breaks out?
[/quote]


Sounds like HOI is the game for you if you want to play a "bizarro" version of WWII. WaW will give you the options to build the Kriegsmarine and strategic bombers for the Luftwaffe...I don't know that this strategy would be wise. If the Germans emphasized these production strategies they would have been ill equipped for Barbarossa. I'd love to play you as the Allies when the game is released.

[Cheesehead]

ORIGINAL: ritterkruz

Like all the other fanatics out there, I've done a lot of reading about WW2. One of the more interesting books was based on Admiral Raeder's plans for a much more balanced and powerful surface navy... by 1941/2. This would include several more Bismarck class and a couple of good-sized CVs. Another book (oh yes, before the internet, there were b-o-o-k-s, remember?)[:D] detailed how Germany was well into the planning for a 4-engine strategic bomber. (No, not just the Condor; more like a super He 111.) One of these strategic alternatives, let alone both, may have pushed England over the edge, had they been made available in time. Does WaW allow for any such changes in the equippage of a major power's military forces? Is there much lead time for final production adjustments before the fighting breaks out?

Sounds like HOI is the game for you if you want to play a "bizarro" version of WWII. WaW will give you the options to build the Kriegsmarine and strategic bombers for the Luftwaffe...I don't know that this strategy would be wise. If the Germans emphasized these production strategies they would have been ill equipped for Barbarossa. I'd love to play you as the Allies when the game is released.

[ritterkruz]

I'm gonna love this game. There was, years ago, an Avalon Hill grand strategic game that played really well, but didn't include the Pacific theater. "Third Reich", I think it was called. Anyways, it's not so much "bizarro" variants of WW2, it's just the whole idea of mucking around with plausible alternatives to what actually happened. Which is what we do for fun.[:D] Regarding German strategic wisdom, we can be thankful that Hitler and company weren't successful. Because they went to war well before Speer "recommended", Germany was only partly mechanized, had no strategic bomber, and was in the middle of a surface Naval program in Sept 39 that was lacking in both U Boats and surface ships. etc. And it still took the combined power of most of the rest of the world almost 6 years to slay that particular dragon. I'm gonna love this game. (P.S. I'm playing my first PBEM right now in UV, so I'll be learning how to lose gracefully for some time yet before I'm up for WaW)[;)]

[solops]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The Germans can also research their heavy bombers into bigger, better bombers. All of this takes production points, and whether it's a good strategy or not is up to the players to find out.

As for making changes to the starting setup, there is no editor provided, but everything runs from data files. I expect the modders to put out additional scenarios by changing these data files. It's not that hard to do and we will encourage modders to do this.

OK, but is the AI powerful enough to deal with such variants or initiate such themselves?

[Joel Billings]

It's programmed to play various strategies that we think are good ones along with reacting to what the other players are doing with their research. It's not as smart as a human player, but it'll challenge you at first. Once you know the game well, there are many ways to give yourself a fun and challenging game (various cheats for the computer that you can control along with only playing one player slot and having the AI play your allies).

[Holz]

Has anyone actually tried to take Britain out in a game, ignoring Russia, isolating Britain with subs and air, and building enough transports to drop an invasion force capable of taking and holding the island? I haven't seen it in any of the AARs so far. Russia and the US don't join till 43 if not attacked, so you'd have some time to try it at least. Does anything happen if Britain is taken over? Does the rest of the empire keep fighting? It seems like there should be some effect, though I'm guessing they won't be producing many units without the british factories.

[paullus99]

I've concentrated on Britain before & it usually leaves me unprepared for the Russian campaign later on. There are advantages - but once the US gets involved, it becomes very hard to hold a captured England - putting you right back where you started.

[Cheesehead]

ORIGINAL: ritterkruz

Like all the other fanatics out there, I've done a lot of reading about WW2. One of the more interesting books was based on Admiral Raeder's plans for a much more balanced and powerful surface navy... by 1941/2. This would include several more Bismarck class and a couple of good-sized CVs. Another book (oh yes, before the internet, there were b-o-o-k-s, remember?)[:D] detailed how Germany was well into the planning for a 4-engine strategic bomber. (No, not just the Condor; more like a super He 111.) One of these strategic alternatives, let alone both, may have pushed England over the edge, had they been made available in time. Does WaW allow for any such changes in the equippage of a major power's military forces? Is there much lead time for final production adjustments before the fighting breaks out?

I'm reading Gerhard Weinberg's "A world at arms: A global history of WWII" and in it he mentions Raeder's belief in a dominant German Navy. Let me quote from page 70:

"Admiral Raeder thought that England had gone to war in 1939 for fear of a deteriorating naval situation later when the German navy had completed its construction program [postponed by Hitler in anticipation of war with France and Russia]. Like most German, but unlike most Japanese, naval officers, Raeder considered only Germany's construction plans and their implementation while ignoring the naval construction programs of other powers. This curious form of blindness--there is no reference to the fact that Great Britain and the U.S. had begun substantial naval building programs in the 1930s and that the ships being built would some day be completed--awaits investigation."

Kinda sounds like Raeder was living in a fantasy world.