Allied Sub/Jap ASW "Cauldron"

[Burkowski]

Just wondering if anyone else shares this experience? I am playing the campaign as IJ. It's mid-January 1942, and I have described the general situation in another thread..

A battle has developed that has become a war unto itself... in the four-hex area just west of Formosa, I have gradually become engaged with the AI in what I can only describe as a "cauldron" of activity... the intensity and number of forces involved have increased over the past month... right now, there are at least 12-14 identified US and Dutch subs just in those hexes, and I have either risen to that occasion (or caused it?) by slowly feeding in more ASW forces... I have at least 8 ASW TFs, mostly MSW, PG, PC, but now have committed some fleet DDs, when I could spare them, from as far away as Camranh Bay and the Home Islands... in addition I have assigned both IJN and IJA ground-based air to ASW ops, even up to Bettys awaiting deployment from Formosa to developing front line bases... all in all, in seems curious that such a great portion of forces from both sides should be concentrated in such a small area... there are relatively few IJ targets, since most of the ground forces from Pescadores, etc. are already well on their way to the front...

So, I'm wondering, is this Allied AI "doctrine" at work ( I have Allied sub doctrine off, I think)?... are these four hexes the happy-hunting ground in most campaigns?.... is it a test of wills, where AI acts, I increase response, AI ups the bet, etc.? ...

In all, the outcome so far is mixed--- a few torpedo hits, mostly on ASW forces themselves and lots of sightings (and a fair numer of claimed hits by my pilots), but so far no dead Allied subs showing on the Intel screen...

Anyone share a similar experience? Any ideas on how to better scoop up those very obvious Allied bad-boys? [&:]


Regards to all,

Burkowski

[caslug]

I have the same problem, but usually the "hot" hexes are the ones adjacent to Takao/Tinian, at times I would see 4-8 Allied subs in that area. Actually, it's a good to camp for allied subs, because your convoys usually have to transit by formasa either north(pecadosore) or South(tinian/Apari). I was able to kill at least 8 or 10 subs, I setup ASW group with 1-3 DD, 1-3 MSW, 3-6 PC/SC, two of theses groups w/ LB on ASW. Only lost about 1-2 small ships and I'm up to 10/42 now.

[viking42]

I have experienced the same thing many times.
plasying the japanese, i take it as a fun time for my ASW vessels, you just have to concentrate asw there and you get trained DD aswel as a lot of point in no time!

[DJAndrews]

The route between the major resource and supply areas must pass either north or south of Batan Island, or through the Pescadores. I've seen the situation you described regularly in these hexes. Geneally speaking, the AI seems to line the China shoreline from Taan to Takao because this the most popular route for AKs and Tankers.

What I'm amazed at is the londevity of US subs under these conditions. I've got more than 100 aircraaft flying anti-sub missions and still they attack the ASW task forces. I've had as many as 7 reported hits on one sub and it still came back for more the next turn.

Similar "killing" areas occur near PH and San Fran, but the US ASW had huge TFs that are way more effective, so the IJN don't generally stick around for long.

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

The route between the major resource and supply areas must pass either north or south of Batan Island, or through the Pescadores. I've seen the situation you described regularly in these hexes. Geneally speaking, the AI seems to line the China shoreline from Taan to Takao because this the most popular route for AKs and Tankers.

What I'm amazed at is the londevity of US subs under these conditions. I've got more than 100 aircraaft flying anti-sub missions and still they attack the ASW task forces. I've had as many as 7 reported hits on one sub and it still came back for more the next turn.

Similar "killing" areas occur near PH and San Fran, but the US ASW had huge TFs that are way more effective, so the IJN don't generally stick around for long.

Andrews, agree whole-heartly.

It is worse with a good player. I have a PBEM game and the Allied subs are crushing me at the "Killing Zone" I have had four separate ASW TF with 5-10 ships each. In a two turn game, each of the TF have a sighting at least once a day. In a single turn of two days, my ASW TF had 9 separate sightings, no attackes, and the sub came up three times and sunk transports passing through. I feel for you !!

[Burkowski]

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

The route between the major resource and supply areas must pass either north or south of Batan Island, or through the Pescadores. I've seen the situation you described regularly in these hexes. Geneally speaking, the AI seems to line the China shoreline from Taan to Takao because this the most popular route for AKs and Tankers.

What I'm amazed at is the londevity of US subs under these conditions. I've got more than 100 aircraaft flying anti-sub missions and still they attack the ASW task forces. I've had as many as 7 reported hits on one sub and it still came back for more the next turn.

Similar "killing" areas occur near PH and San Fran, but the US ASW had huge TFs that are way more effective, so the IJN don't generally stick around for long.

What I'm amazed at is the londevity of US subs under these conditions. I've got more than 100 aircraaft flying anti-sub missions and still they attack the ASW task forces. I've had as many as 7 reported hits on one sub and it still came back for more the next turn.

DJAndrews et al:

Yes, that longevity and/or tenacity, I fear, is but a taste of the future... I have tried to increase the quality of my ASW forces both by selection and by spending PP points, but based on my limited experience as the Jap side so far, I am not making much of a dent.. I understand that sightings have value of their own in suppressing the subs at work, but I would have hoped for more hits and, at least some kills.... some of the Allied subs (two Dutch boats, Thresher) seem to have been lurking west of Formosa for weeks and have been seen lots but, at least according to the Intel screen, not taken down... I have lost a handful of MSW and PGs and the subs have gotten through to sink a TK and an AK... Mavis seem to be effective in the ASW search role when I can spare some... I am using them at 1000 feet, based on old UV advice from someone... does that still seem reasonable for WitP?


Burkowski

[viking42]

bump about the mavis?

[Burkowski]

Viking42.

I am 57 years old and still a computer newbie.... what the hell does "BUMP" mean?

Whatever it is, I'll do it, if it's not illegal or indelicate... [:)]


Burkowski

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: Burkowski

Viking42.

I am 57 years old and still a computer newbie.... what the hell does "BUMP" mean?

Whatever it is, I'll do it, if it's not illegal or indelicate... [:)]


Burkowski

just means, like in real life, if you are standing next to someone and agree with them, you give them a slight elbow and say "Yes, I agree with that" [8D]

[Burkowski]

TNX, KPAX.

My liberal education continues....


Burkowski

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: KPAX

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

The route between the major resource and supply areas must pass either north or south of Batan Island, or through the Pescadores. I've seen the situation you described regularly in these hexes. Geneally speaking, the AI seems to line the China shoreline from Taan to Takao because this the most popular route for AKs and Tankers.

What I'm amazed at is the londevity of US subs under these conditions. I've got more than 100 aircraaft flying anti-sub missions and still they attack the ASW task forces. I've had as many as 7 reported hits on one sub and it still came back for more the next turn.

Similar "killing" areas occur near PH and San Fran, but the US ASW had huge TFs that are way more effective, so the IJN don't generally stick around for long.

Andrews, agree whole-heartly.

It is worse with a good player. I have a PBEM game and the Allied subs are crushing me at the "Killing Zone" I have had four separate ASW TF with 5-10 ships each. In a two turn game, each of the TF have a sighting at least once a day. In a single turn of two days, my ASW TF had 9 separate sightings, no attackes, and the sub came up three times and sunk transports passing through. I feel for you !!

Increase your ASW TF's to 15 and include some DD's.

1. Each ship in a TF gets a chance to spot and engage the sub. The more ships you have in the task force, the more chances you have to engage and kill the sub. At the same time, the sub gets one shot only.

2. Each ship engaged gets a chance to increase experience. If you engage a sub with 5-10, you lose out on chances to improve experience on some of your ships.

3. PC/PG experience is generally in the 35 - 50 range, MSW exp is in the 30's, DD's are generally more like 60 - 75. Higher experience means more spotting and more attacks. Below 50, attacks are sporadic at best. Including several DD's in your ASW TF's gives you the contacts and chance to fire at the subs. Think of the DD's as momma lions teaching the cubs how to kill.

4. The manual states that TF's begin to be less effective with more than 15 ships.

5. I use the 12 AA / 2 ASW DD's to thicken up my ASW groups and convoy escorts. For example, one of my ASW groups has 3 DD, 2 MSW, and 10 PC.

6. Larger TF's are more likely to make contact with the enemy.

7. More ASW ships mean more attacks on the sub once spotted. More attacks = more hits = more dead subs.

8. Each hex the ASW task force moves through, it gets a chance to spot and engage a sub. Move the ASW TF's through as many potential sub contacts as you can.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: KPAX

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

The route between the major resource and supply areas must pass either north or south of Batan Island, or through the Pescadores. I've seen the situation you described regularly in these hexes. Geneally speaking, the AI seems to line the China shoreline from Taan to Takao because this the most popular route for AKs and Tankers.

What I'm amazed at is the londevity of US subs under these conditions. I've got more than 100 aircraaft flying anti-sub missions and still they attack the ASW task forces. I've had as many as 7 reported hits on one sub and it still came back for more the next turn.

Similar "killing" areas occur near PH and San Fran, but the US ASW had huge TFs that are way more effective, so the IJN don't generally stick around for long.

Andrews, agree whole-heartly.

It is worse with a good player. I have a PBEM game and the Allied subs are crushing me at the "Killing Zone" I have had four separate ASW TF with 5-10 ships each. In a two turn game, each of the TF have a sighting at least once a day. In a single turn of two days, my ASW TF had 9 separate sightings, no attackes, and the sub came up three times and sunk transports passing through. I feel for you !!

Increase your ASW TF's to 15 and include some DD's.

1. Each ship in a TF gets a chance to spot and engage the sub. The more ships you have in the task force, the more chances you have to engage and kill the sub. At the same time, the sub gets one shot only.

2. Each ship engaged gets a chance to increase experience. If you engage a sub with 5-10, you lose out on chances to improve experience on some of your ships.

3. PC/PG experience is generally in the 35 - 50 range, MSW exp is in the 30's, DD's are generally more like 60 - 75. Higher experience means more spotting and more attacks. Below 50, attacks are sporadic at best. Including several DD's in your ASW TF's gives you the contacts and chance to fire at the subs. Think of the DD's as momma lions teaching the cubs how to kill.

4. The manual states that TF's begin to be less effective with more than 15 ships.

5. I use the 12 AA / 2 ASW DD's to thicken up my ASW groups and convoy escorts. For example, one of my ASW groups has 3 DD, 2 MSW, and 10 PC.

6. Larger TF's are more likely to make contact with the enemy.

7. More ASW ships mean more attacks on the sub once spotted. More attacks = more hits = more dead subs.

8. Each hex the ASW task force moves through, it gets a chance to spot and engage a sub. Move the ASW TF's through as many potential sub contacts as you can.

This is why ASW is completely whacked.[:(]

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
This is why ASW is completely whacked.[:(]

If you can't beat em, join em.

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: Burkowski

TNX, KPAX.

My liberal education continues....


Burkowski

Whats a liberal ?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
This is why ASW is completely whacked.[:(]

If you can't beat em, join em.

No doubt. [:D]Hope they fix it though.

[DJAndrews]

After ten days in the "Cauldron", the SS Searaven has moved on, sinking an empty AP in a lightly protected convoy as it exited the area. In the last two days the Searaven was attacked by a specially designated 20-ship ASW TF, 5 times without being hit. It was also bombed by Nells on ASW patrol.

A charmed sub, if there ever was one. It was replaced on-station by the SS Tambor which was immediately sunk and by the SS KXV which received 4 depth charge hits. The IJN is not sorry to see the pesky Searaven go.

[Jmsimer]

I have noticed almost identical behavior playing as the allies against Japanese AI. In Mid-1942, it seemed like the entire Japanese submarine force descended on Townsville, for no readily apparent reason. I had a convoy or two going to Townsville, but not many - most of my convoys were going to Noumea or Brisbane. Anyway, I flooded the area with ASW forces - but here is where the experience differs. My DDs, DMSes, and MSWs had a lot of success, sinking about 30-40 Japanese subs in about two months with the loss of less than ten ships, mostly MSWs (a number of other ships were damaged but, since all these battles were within 180 miles of Townsville, they survived). Once I recaptured Gili Gili, this Townsville sub swarm stopped. Now I almost regret recapturing Gili Gili when I did - I was well on my way to permanently eliminating the Japanese submarine fleet as a significant factor in the war.

By the way, although I noticed a lot of success by my ASW ships, I didn't see any effects at all from the 10 or so squadrons of aircraft that I had on ASW patrol in the area - Catalinas and Beauforts, mostly.