Ron and fellow Canadians

[strawbuk]

Bearing in mind Ron's views on ASW and sub performance in WITP it amusing that the Canadian Navy got stung when the brought 4 ex RN subs this year which appear er... less than active for duty.

Now look it is not good bleating about wanting your money back. If you buy used naval hardware of Ebay, 'pizza sized dents in the hull*' are a risk. Did nobody check the UK Min of Defence ebay seller rating? It's awful! See what the Saudis said about the Challenger contract ande Brit squaddies about that pair of boots they brought last year.

Yes the four U-class boats (Unfit, Unseaworthy*, Undermaintained* and Unuseable) may be a little rusty but hey why do want ultra quiet subs anyway? Trying to get round the whaling ban?


* Canadian naval spokesman - are we now to measure all naval damage in fast food - 'I shot him ful of burger buns or 'the Yamato's armour was defintely penetrated by a 1000lb hotdog'.

[Twotribes]

As I understand it there is nothing wrong with the subs, except when they were pulled from mothballed state they had some cracked and broken seals that delayed delivery.

The delay is in the installment of Canadian equipment on to the subs. I guess they dont want to be buying from the Brits for ever so wanted to change stuff to their own.

Seeing as how the defense budget in Canada is a joke, no wonder they are having trouble getting them worked up to full operational status with weapons installed.

[canuck64]

well now there are set of illustrious arguments for the defense. Please!

I do better justifying a marijuana dealership. Saying Canada got taken, which happens to buyers all the time on ebay, is a little like saying, 'let the buyer beware'-which admittedly, is Canada's fault to take. It just doesn't make a lot of money-sense on Britain's part.

Listen, in defence of my homeland, I can offer you this. ANY effort that Canada makes on its military would be wise to buffer, as only US and Brit kit would get bought anyway. Given Canada's wealth, but indifference to things military (except as a last resort), you'd think Britain would settle down and look forward to screwing Canada gently, over a period of years. But a pat on the head and a half-stale wafer after a good butt-working-over for four subs seems a bit trite and ill thought-out.

The US sells us stuff all the time. Witness the 150 top-knotch f-18s we bought from them back in the late 80's. Of course, WE fly them at and around Cold Lake Alberta (a fitting name I assure you) where ice build up on the wings had people calling them the Widowmakers....something the US hadn't really built them for in the first place.
Of course in Canada, you don't give much of a damn about the pilot. In fact, better not expect us to send out a search party on your behalf if you down a billion dollar plane....unlike the US (remember that US pilot in Serbia?)....we'll train another pilot, thank you very much...

Point of it is, we had to retrofit ALL of those f-18's, as the US Navy had never thought to really put them through trials at the north pole... which meant going BACK to the US for more purchases...
Canada will screw itself, rest assured, which means spend more money eventually, to buy left-over and out of date technology, and then mis-apply it, needing more money to retrofit.

Britain should look more toward long term relationship of take and take, given the state of its economy, than an immediate "HAHA! YOU GOT TOOK!"[:-] Just a thought towards how to make money. US readers, please give the Brits a copy of "wealth of nations" by Kennedy....

As for us Canucks...well, hells' bells-My mom works for NATO for Canada. She took me to the Canadian 'fleet' of subs in the late 80's. They were the same boats used in ww2. You cannot imagine the smell of human bodies embedded in those vehicles after 35 years.
Some dents in relatively modern boats should be the least of our worries. Our navy just upgunned itself by about 50 percent by my reckoning.
Amazingly enough, during one of my searches late at night, I discovered that CANADA AT ONE TIME HAD A/C CARRIERS!!!!

I kid you not-end of WW2, 50's, Korea-era it looks like we had some CVE's (and that's using the term generously)-largely for ASW heli ops and the like, but I gather at one point real planes were on em....good god almighty....

[UncleBuck]

I read that the dents in the subs came form the Canadians trying to land Naval Helocopters on them. [:D] Sorry.

I think All of Europe as well as Canada, needs to look to there own defense a bit more. Stop beating the us with a stick and then expecting us to protect everyone as well.


The Watch dog is getting twitchy.
UB

[Ron Saueracker]

Ha, ha, ha.... Actually pretty sad when the most "effective" branch of our military is the naval branch considering thestate it is in. It's not just the pathetic budget dragging down the military, it's the incredibly ridiculous demands and limitations placed on it by our even more idiotic politicians.

A large portion of our military are officers, and not field officers...staff officers. Most medium to high level civil service jobs go to university grads, and our military is now more an extension of our pathetic civil service than a useful organization. So top heavy with beauracrats that it is simply embarassing. Our Minister of defence has no idea what Vimy Ridge is to the military and our current PM placed Juno beach in Norway.

A few examples of our military beaurocracy in action. The research and development of combat uniforms for pregnant women. The "grey water" study and implementation....millions spent on filtering bath/shaving water waste (ships will now have to filter this while bilge and bathroom waste is still dumped I believe) and, get this, it is now no longer allowable for soldiers in the field to simply dump their soapy wash water from their wash basins onto the ground! Still use White Phosphorous rounds but don't drop the soap. LOL The Upholders were even supposed to provide duplicate privacy facilities for women...submarines are a tight fit and they were debating whether vanity sinks and mirrors were to be installed. "Remove those torpedo tubes and make way for the bath!"

I left in 1991 because of shit like this. My country is going to hell.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

I read that the dents in the subs came form the Canadians trying to land Naval Helocopters on them. [:D] Sorry.

I think All of Europe as well as Canada, needs to look to there own defense a bit more. Stop beating the us with a stick and then expecting us to protect everyone as well.


The Watch dog is getting twitchy.
UB

Give me a break.[8|]

[Zeta16]

Well it looks like a one of their subs is having a problem off the Irish coast.


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041005/1/3nk9j.html

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

Well it looks like a one of their subs is having a problem off the Irish coast.


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041005/1/3nk9j.html

That's a picture of an old Oberon class SSK but holy crap, I wonder what's going on?

Here's an idea how screwed our country is. Top CBC News Net stories...Throne speech, gas prices, online used car scams. Good grief![:@]

[Ron Saueracker]

Apparentlya fire broke out. Crew safe. Propulsion out. Being towed back to Faslane, Scotland after acceptance trials. Oooops. Hope they got the guarantee.[8|]

[Tankerace]

I think the message here is not so much don't give Canadians subs, but don't by them from Britiain.

I still think it is funny that Canada is the only country we (the US) ever tried to invade, and got kicked out. See, the Canadian military isn't all that bad... course, that was 188 years ago, but hey.

[Halsey]

That's because our Secretary of War (or whatever they called him) was an idiot. He got sacked after Washington was fired. It did scare the bejesus out of the Baltimore defenders though, they put up a helluva fight!
The best thing about the War of 1812 was Dolly Madison, boy do I love her honey buns![:D]

[anarchyintheuk]

Acceptance trials or prep work for Canada's invasion of Ireland? They would look deceivingly similiar.

[kaleun]

I read that the dents in the subs came form the Canadians trying to land Naval Helocopters on them. Sorry.

I think All of Europe as well as Canada, needs to look to there own defense a bit more. Stop beating the us with a stick and then expecting us to protect everyone as well.


The Watch dog is getting twitchy.
UB

Maybe tired's the word[8|]

[Platoonist]

In an interesting parallel to Canada's plight it's my understanding that New Zealand's air force has been reduced by budget cuts to a force in name only. Interesting article in Jane's. Apparently all future priority will be given to the army's ability to participate in peace support operations and other multinational operations.

http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military ... _1_n.shtml

[dday]

Hey I'm Canadian too <eh>, I agree with Ron 100%! Our rotten Armed Forces is so rotten .....
Please Mr. Bush <Kerry> invade us, we got nothing here to stop ya <eh>.
[&:]

[Farfarer61]

When the sub deal was signed, no less an authority than "Jane's" called it the " deal of the CENTURY", meaning it was great for Canada.

British equipment aboard is being replaced with state-of-the-art US submarine equipment.

Canadian ships process all wastewater to the highest standards in the world. There is NO discharge of ANY oily waste or fuel save by rare human error. "Black Water" (sewage) and "Grey Water" ( showers and dishwashing) are treated in "bookcells" in a processing compartment.

If desired, oily waste can be processed using a device which renders the oil concentration down to a few ( <15 or so) parts per million. The sludge will be kept aboard. Generally though, all oily water is kept and pumped to a licensed processing and disposal contractor in port at great cost.

All recyclables are processing or stored aboard as well. Plastics are melted into large frisbee-like discs and saved until the next port.

GREENPEACE ships on the next jetty pump raw sewage overboard.

FYI the Canadian Navy just completed Operation Apollo, as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. A Canadian naval officer was responsible for several years for the area which includes the Strait of Hormuz - often referred to as "The single point of failure for the Western Way of Life".

Canadian navy ships routinely deploy as integral members of USN Battlegroups and Strike Groups. This is possible only as significant investment has been made to ensure command, control and communications equipment remain compatible with the USN, the navy of Canada's most important ally and fellow NATO member.

Gimblett's book on "Operation Apollo" states it clearly. The Canadian Navy "has no peer competitor".

[GBirkn]

I'm glad to hear that the crew is OK, and hope they all make port safely. According to the BBC they're having some trouble with winds and heavy seas; it must be an unpleasant ride and then some on the surface in an unpowered submarine.

Platoonist, that's an interesting story. I see it's dated 2001 -- does anyone know if NZ actually went ahead with that plan?

[Platoonist]

GBirkn. Yup. Looks like Kiwis did go ahead with it. Here is a page showing the current order of battle for the RNZAF.

http://www.scramble.nl/nz.htm

Pretty much paired down to some ASW aircraft, helos and transport planes.

[madmickey]

Forget submarines.
Let return the British parliamentary system it is little more than an elected dictatorship.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

When the sub deal was signed, no less an authority than "Jane's" called it the " deal of the CENTURY", meaning it was great for Canada.

British equipment aboard is being replaced with state-of-the-art US submarine equipment.

Canadian ships process all wastewater to the highest standards in the world. There is NO discharge of ANY oily waste or fuel save by rare human error. "Black Water" (sewage) and "Grey Water" ( showers and dishwashing) are treated in "bookcells" in a processing compartment.

If desired, oily waste can be processed using a device which renders the oil concentration down to a few ( <15 or so) parts per million. The sludge will be kept aboard. Generally though, all oily water is kept and pumped to a licensed processing and disposal contractor in port at great cost.

All recyclables are processing or stored aboard as well. Plastics are melted into large frisbee-like discs and saved until the next port.

GREENPEACE ships on the next jetty pump raw sewage overboard.

FYI the Canadian Navy just completed Operation Apollo, as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. A Canadian naval officer was responsible for several years for the area which includes the Strait of Hormuz - often referred to as "The single point of failure for the Western Way of Life".

Canadian navy ships routinely deploy as integral members of USN Battlegroups and Strike Groups. This is possible only as significant investment has been made to ensure command, control and communications equipment remain compatible with the USN, the navy of Canada's most important ally and fellow NATO member.

Gimblett's book on "Operation Apollo" states it clearly. The Canadian Navy "has no peer competitor".

I'm not dumping on the Canadian Navy at all. I'm dumping all over the command structures (National Defence HQ...what a brass heavy office party) of the Canadian military and the politicians which make an impossible job even more so. It's amazing that they can perform at all. I'm also a big Upholder fan, great boat. Price was better in an earlier "failed" deal (government again) but hey, still a great deal.

Who cares about waste water (small amounts) when we dump raw sewage into waterways as a SOP, strip mine the oceans of sea life and otherwise pollute and exploit the environment to criminal degrees. Grey water efforts are another massive waste of money and yet another example of completey fouled priorities.

"The single point of failure for the Western Way of Life". What kind of silly statement is this? I don't get it. There are lots of reasons for the failure of our way of life and geography is not one of them. We are lucky as hell in this regard. I'd list greed and rabid consumerism as a start.

NATO is an anachronism. Kinda like a gun club these days. Got a question...Who are we allied against?