Three crawling insects

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:35 pm

As so many people are terrified with the b** word I'll use this perhaps more English correct one <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .

I don't know if these insects (two small fleas and one beetle of reasonable proportions) were already noted but here it is anyway.

Flea #1 - noted in a Japan vs. USA PBEM game 1944, v7.0, deep jungle. I had more than one situation where platoons already with many casualties were retreating in a fire hex. I rallied and rallied them but they stayed retreating for lots of turns sometimes with suppression 1. Had to wait for the fire to cease to have those troops ready again. This is annoying, not that I was going to use those troops again because they were very reduced but suppose that the enemy attacks - I cannot escape with them. Not very realistic that 3 or 4 survivors of a platoon remain trapped in a circle of flames for so long time.

Flea #2 - in the same game - I was in deep jungle in a thunderstorm so I could advance only 1 hex at a time with my foot infantry. But sometimes when I get a wreck in my way I could advance 2 hexes. Also some armour that normally would advance 2 hexes is able to move 3 hexes if a wreck is in their way. This applies only to wrecks in flames, not vehicles that were abandoned and later destroyed. Question - shouldn't the wrecks be an obstacle instead of a lagoon of oil for the troops to slide trough the hex?

Beetle #1 - noted in a solitaire test battle USA vs. Japan 1944, v7.0. I had a halftrack loaded with Arm. Engineers and a Japanese SNLF squad attacked me, the first shots from the japs made my engineers get out of the vehicle. Suddenly the sound of an explosion and a message appeared in the bottom of the screen - "US Eng. Front Hit by Type 97 Grenade" - to my disbelieve the entire engineer squad was destroyed. The halftrack remained intact until it was assaulted and destroyed 2 rounds of fire later. Naive question - are US Arm. Engineers robot soldiers with front, side and rear armour?

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]</p>

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 6:04 pm

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
As so many people are terrified with the b** word I'll use this perhaps more English correct one <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .

I don't know if these insects (two small fleas and one beetle of reasonable proportions) were already noted but here it is anyway.

Flea #1 - noted in a Japan vs. USA PBEM game 1944, v7.0, deep jungle. I had more than one situation where platoons already with many casualties were retreating in a fire hex. I rallied and rallied them but they stayed retreating for lots of turns sometimes with suppression 1. Had to wait for the fire to cease to have those troops ready again. This is annoying, not that I was going to use those troops again because they were very reduced but suppose that the enemy attacks - I cannot escape with them. Not very realistic that 3 or 4 survivors of a platoon remain trapped in a circle of flames for so long time.

Flea #2 - in the same game - I was in deep jungle in a thunderstorm so I could advance only 1 hex at a time with my foot infantry. But sometimes when I get a wreck in my way I could advance 2 hexes. Also some armour that normally would advance 2 hexes is able to move 3 hexes if a wreck is in their way. This applies only to wrecks in flames, not vehicles that were abandoned and later destroyed. Question - shouldn't the wrecks be an obstacle instead of a lagoon of oil for the troops to slide trough the hex?

Beetle #1 - noted in a solitaire test battle USA vs. Japan 1944, v7.0. I had a halftrack loaded with Arm. Engineers and a Japanese SNLF squad attacked me, the first shots from the japs made my engineers get out of the vehicle. Suddenly the sound of an explosion and a message appeared in the bottom of the screen - "US Eng. Front Hit by Type 97 Grenade" - to my disbelieve the entire engineer squad was destroyed. The halftrack remained intact until it was assaulted and destroyed 2 rounds of fire later. Naive question - are US Arm. Engineers robot soldiers with front, side and rear armour?

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]

Hola Richard.

I will try to answer a litte...

1st Flea: There is a known "insecto" or "bicho" about Japanese infantry and supression in version 7.0 Hope it will be addressed in 7.1.

2nd Flea: It's obvius... in a thunderstorm soldiers seek cover from the rain and cold... and burning wrecks give them that warm cover... It is logic that they run!

Beetle nr 1: After some thinking, two possible causes... It seems the engineers where travelling outside the halftrack, as a tank rider, and not inside the halftrack, and that is an insect... or the armored engineers are treated as a vehicle class, and that is another insect... or perhaps "US armored" engineers" are actually "armored"...

Hope this helps and don't turn in confussion... <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 6:42 pm

Originally posted by Mikimoto:

1st Flea: There is a known "insecto" or "bicho" about Japanese infantry and supression in version 7.0 Hope it will be addressed in 7.1.

2nd Flea: It's obvius... in a thunderstorm soldiers seek cover from the rain and cold... and burning wrecks give them that warm cover... It is logic that they run!

Beetle nr 1: After some thinking, two possible causes... It seems the engineers where travelling outside the halftrack, as a tank rider, and not inside the halftrack, and that is an insect... or the armored engineers are treated as a vehicle class, and that is another insect... or perhaps "US armored" engineers" are actually "armored"...

Hope this helps and don't turn in confussion... <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Olá Mikimoto,

Flea #1 - Glad that is known. I also hope that will be adressed at 7.1

Flea #2 - <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Beetle #1- Armored Engineers are infantry. Absolutely. Maybe robotic one <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

My intention is always to help and I hope that point is clear for all. If I seemed sarcastic that wasn't my intention, just to make some humour - don't know if I suceeded.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 8:33 pm

In certain instances, flea #2 would occur perhaps because that obstacle to movement also became an obstacle to the enemy spotting your unit. There is such a thing as going to the end of your shaded movement radius and suddenly getting a bonus movement hex later; that is normal. I'm unsure why the bonus hex occurs, but in rare instances it would be logical if for example you are mopping up, and when the unit originally moved there were enemies spotting the unit, but later, those enemies were eliminated, so that the odd one or two movement points left over might be enough to advance one more hex.

I think you'd have to find an all-out case for wrecks adding movement to units for it to be worthy of concentrating on, as I've surely never run into that occuring up to V6.1.

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 9:54 pm

Originally posted by Charles_22:
In certain instances, flea #2 would occur perhaps because that obstacle to movement also became an obstacle to the enemy spotting your unit. There is such a thing as going to the end of your shaded movement radius and suddenly getting a bonus movement hex later; that is normal. I'm unsure why the bonus hex occurs, but in rare instances it would be logical if for example you are mopping up, and when the unit originally moved there were enemies spotting the unit, but later, those enemies were eliminated, so that the odd one or two movement points left over might be enough to advance one more hex.

I think you'd have to find an all-out case for wrecks adding movement to units for it to be worthy of concentrating on, as I've surely never run into that occuring up to V6.1.

Hi Charles,

Your observations make a lot of sense but do not apply, unfortunatelly.

As I said I'm in deep jungle during a thunderstorm, the visibility is 2 out of jungle hexes, 1 in jungle hexes, it is very hard for anyone to see anyone. This situation happens without enemies anyway near because the area was already cleared of them.

Also it is not a matter of an extra hex as a bonus because the move radius show me that I can go to that extra hex(s) before I move the unit.

I don't know nothing about the hard-code of SPWaW but my guess is this (perhaps I could ring a bell):

The movement value for my SNLF infantry is 9. I guess the unit cannot advance more than one hex because the movement cost of a jungle hex in thunderstorm is let's say 10.

My guess is that something is wrong with the movement cost values for the "drawing" of the hex containing the flaming wreck. That wrong thing makes the particular hex have a movement cost inferior to 10, let's say 8, therefore allowing the unit to pass to the next hex.

Did it ring a bell or made any sense?

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]</p>

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:18 pm

Charles:

I wasn't completely precise in my late post. I should have mentioned that my infantry always moves one hex, jungle or no jungle, and that the "hex flea" happens not only in jungle hexes but also in mixed terrain and swamp (not sure about rough).

So if my guess makes any sense then it is reasonable to suppose this should apply to any type of terrain that contains a burning wreck.

Maybe I found this because this weather + terrain mix is not common and I'm in a limits situation regarding unit movement vs. terrain movement cost.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:18 pm

Ya gets a bow dudes, for an amusing refreshing and for once not alarmist way of stating a comment, without need to use an tired over used term <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Khan7 · Post by **Khan7** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 12:11 am

Well, having just played several battles of a randomly-generated US Paratroops vs. Germans campaign, I can tell you that when close assaulted by infantry, infantry riding in halftracks are initially treated as vehicles, that if stricken may have their suspension disable (*lol*) or be destroyed. The destroyed part kind of makes sense, I mean if you chucked a grenade into the carrying bay of an HT you might expect something catastrophic (though I'm still trying to figure out how my brave little sniper, who *supposedly* just trucks around his little sniper rifle, pulled this one off), but the "suspension disabled" one, is, well, a bit weird. So what, all their legs got blown off? So they will spend the rest of the battle crawling around helplessly bleeding, but still firing away angrily at the enemy?? Ak, visit from dimension X!

Anyway, fleas 1 & 2 I have no clue about, never seen them myself. But you've heard what I have to say about the beetle, though I must say I wasn't going to complain about it, as it was kind of tasty for my forward ambush parties to be able to wreak that kind of destruction on the worthless Nazi dogs

Matt

Capt. Pixel · Post by **Capt. Pixel** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 12:22 am

'Fleas' and 'beetles' - you guys crack me up. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 12:55 am

RichardTheFirst: Tee-hee, maybe the wrecks burn long enough that they dry out the hex, thereby increasing movement through it. OTOH maybe there's some sort of snafu where you have so many things contrary to movement applied, that the wreck ends up doing the opposite that in does in other instances (kind of sounds like what you were saying).

You ought to save that battle and send it to Paul. It ought to prove amusing if nothing else.

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 1:21 am

Charles:

I don't know if you are an expert or not from Matrix. You sure first looked like you were interested in looking into this issue. That wasn't the kind of answer I was expecting.

Please don't insult my intelligence by finding unreasonable explanations for what is clearly a BUG (there - I said it - tried to joke around the word for respect for you guys, but not now).

And if my reports that were indented to help are considered amusement material than this Forum is not what I thought it was.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 2:13 am

RichardTheFirst: I wasn't making fun of you Richard, if that's what you're worried about. I'm working alone on a saturday, like every blasted saturday, I'm sorry if my attempts at amusement meet with displeasure. If a flea, it's a very small one, but as I said, and I was serious with that one sentence, if you really think it's a bug, send the save game to Paul Vebber.

I tried to help at first, but as it proved impossible I resorted to levity. Send it to Paul ans perhaps he will comment on this, he usually does.

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 2:21 am

Charles:

Ok, man. I can respect that. Tell you what: why don't we forget the last two posts.

This flea is so small that only deserves a scratch from the little finger <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> .

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 6:07 am

RichardTheFirst: I'm glad you see it that way, I was beginning to wonder. It would appear because my tone was serious at first you mistook me for a Matrix employee, well, there are a lot of people here who pitch in on occassion, and almost none of us have all the answers too speedily, even Paul V.

I think it highly unlikely that since this thread went somewhat jokey, that it will be ignored, but unfortunately that issue being brought up, if indeed it is an issue, at this late in the game for SPWAW, may not justify very much attention given to it. Unfortunately, for yourself, you basically invited at least an amount of levity in the first place, followed by levity from the first respondent, considering you liked it from that respondent, the path to levity was even more opened up.

The post where I mentioned Paul, was a mixture of levity and seriousness. That style was followed for both paragraphs (Both having a joke line alongside a serious line). Unfortunately I see where the last paragraph might've sounded bad. It could look as though I'm saying that you can send it to Paul, like it'll do a fat lot of good (As though Paul will just ignore you or that your flea was stupid and non-existent).

What I meant to say is that you could send it to Paul, and that if he couldn't fix it, it wouldn't be a waste of time because it might provide a laugh if nothing else, because it was such a tiny flea, so tiny in fact I don't think anyone's ever seen it. As well, it's not too uncommon in America to throw "it might prove amusing if nothing else" or "it might be worth a laugh if nothing else" when giving advise. I'm not sure why, but it does seem to get used quite a bit. Another common phrase utterred at the end of giving advise, at least down here in Texas, is that people throw the pointless "or something" at the end of it, and it sort of aggravates me when I say it. Try this: "Hey Richard, why don't you send the saved game to Paul, or something?" See how dumb it is? There's no point to it, the "or something" is just excess words.

Dogfish · Post by **Dogfish** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 6:47 am

Hey Richard:

Just a thought on FLEA 2. Did you check the terrain makeup of the hexes with the burning wrecks? Possible that they are no longer dense jungle, but are now mixed or even clear do the explosions and flames. The Daisy Cutter Effect, if you will.

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 11:04 am

Charles:

For me all is water under the bridge, as the British use to say. But since you brought that up I agree it was the change of your style from serious to humorous combined with the last sentence that made me react so sensitively.

I worked in a multinational in a IT Project for many years and it was a very "political" firm. We all used to be very careful with what we write in English both because of bad interpretations and because IT requires it.

Everybody was like that, all but some few (not all) English people that used frequently who knows how many meanings for a sentence. And they had the advantage of mastering the language, which made things even worst. Everybody hated them including myself.

That's why I developed (against my will) a bit hostile attitude regarding some expressions susceptible to more than one meaning. Not only in English but also in any Language, mine is particularly good in that.

What I would say if I write your last paragraph would be something like "Hey Richard, why don't you try to send the file to Paul, the flea is small but maybe he considers it worth of a closer look" or something like that.

Turning back to the flea again: from my experience in IT, sometimes little things are a clue to the possibility of problems in a wider scale. If something is wrong with the movement costs for the hexes with burning wrecks and it was detected only because it was very evident in a limit situation, then it must be wrong everywhere. Maybe if corrected now would prevent problems in the future. Who am I to decide?

But anyway, the insect is now at daylight, if Paul or anyone else would like to see it in more detail I will gladly send the file.

Dogfish:

I did what you suggested and passed my mouse over some wrecks. Some cases are not clear, as sometimes the hex don't indicate the terrain type (just shell holes or something). But all cases that indicate the type maintain the primitive one. Trees, mixed and swamp still show even with the wrecks.

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]</p>

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 5:00 pm

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:

Beetle #1 - noted in a solitaire test battle USA vs. Japan 1944, v7.0. I had a halftrack loaded with Arm. Engineers and a Japanese SNLF squad attacked me, the first shots from the japs made my engineers get out of the vehicle. Suddenly the sound of an explosion and a message appeared in the bottom of the screen - "US Eng. Front Hit by Type 97 Grenade" - to my disbelieve the entire engineer squad was destroyed. The halftrack remained intact until it was assaulted and destroyed 2 rounds of fire later. Naive question - are US Arm. Engineers robot soldiers with front, side and rear armour?

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]

Hello

This Beetle of yours is indeed an old one..i think it appeared sometime during version 5.x..or perhaps earlier.

I've never seen an explanation why this happens but I'd guess that when an infantry unit is loaded into a vehicle the unit will 'cease' to be infantry but is instead flagged to something else..perhaps a 'vehicle'. Now when the vehicle is assaulted and it carries passengers the assault is aborted and directed against the passengers.
It looks like either the assault code or the unload code forgets to update the type of passengers...

Imho this is relatively harmless and rare bug. I've seen it happen maybe 10 times and as it was mentioned earlier it's quite believable that an assault against a vehicle kills all passengers but leaves the vehicle in working condition I can live with this insect <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Voriax

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 5:27 pm

Originally posted by Voriax:

I can live with this insect <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Voriax

I played very few games in v7.0 and this occured on my third or something. If your numbers are correct then the insect is not a Beetle but an Ant <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I can live with several Ants and some Beetles too.

And I'm very glad this game have so few Centipedes and certainly no Tarantulas. That would make my life really difficult <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> .

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 6:40 pm

RichardTheFirst:

If something is wrong with the movement costs for the hexes with burning wrecks and it was detected only because it was very evident in a limit situation, then it must be wrong everywhere.

While that might sound logical to you, the fact of the matter is that all of us have seen wrecks reduce movement.

On the language barrier thing. I usually try to refrain from slang when I write the non-US people. In the case of that sentence, it wasn't so much a case of slang but more of whether or not you use that expression where you are. I have no way to know that. I would expect that you have no idea of what the semi-word "y'all" is, unless you watch a lot of American movies with southern slang, but as to whether people abroad often say "it ought to prove to be a laugh if nothing else" I have no way of knowing. I hear that sort of thing (especially the "or something" line) so much, that I can't hardly imagine that it isn't something universal, just like people used to commonly say "God bless you" when you sneezed. Considering these times, I would suggest that "God bless you" is pretty rarely used, but there are isolated cases of people doing it a lot. It was once was quite a bit over here, and not that it was wrong or anything, but US people just don't use it that much any more. Perhaps your country will be "or something" themselves to death before long, or something (see how irritating it is?).

Oh, and God bless you. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

RichardTheFirst · Post by **RichardTheFirst** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 8:20 pm

Charles:

I believe in you when you say hex with wrecks normally reduce movement. Maybe you would like to take a look at the game in question, since we are now deep in details. Just send me an e-mail from here or leave your address if you are interested.

The language barrier is an amazing thing. One can use a language a lot, like I do with English (as a matter of fact I consider myself fluent in English for a non-born) but will never reach the levels of understanding a native do unless he actually lives in a country for many years. And even so, depends on the age mainly.

I did know the term "y'all". My main difficulties are of course abbreviations (you Americans seemed to have invented the concept <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ), slang, and double meanings (in that the Europeans are worst than the Americans especially the English).

The use of "or something" and those kind of expressions is very common and I personally use "or something" a lot. But I'll try to refrain to use it from now on, now that I think of it I agree it could be considered bad manners or irritating (weird: I don't have an equivalent in Portuguese to this, I wonder how I got this habit...).

We all try to understand each others the best we can, but sometimes it have its difficulties. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]</p>