RTW $14.99 + $8.00 shipping

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly
You're missing the point, technology has reached the stage where anyone can record an album on a home studio setup that will sound almost as good as that recorded by some mega-act over nine months in a multi-million dollar recording studio. Sure they won't get played on MTV, probably won't chart and won't embark on major tours of the World's big cities. But then they won't have the overheads to cover, the recording costs to recoup, security to pay etc. etc. and they can still make a good living at it.

And what on earth does that have to do with major label recording artits? The music industry makes the same claims as the games industry: an expensive product with long development cost being eroded by IP theft. It's not really relevant to bring up garage acts or one-man development houses as a counter arguement, it's just irrelevant.

Contrast that with the gaming industry where costs continue to rise, and the technology to make even a reasonable game isn't available unless you're already a development studio, or have the backing (and the backgound) to found a new one.

Well you're comparing apples to oranges. A fairer comparison to the "home" recording artist would be someone like Frank Hunter. Neither are really affected by large scale piracy. It's simply not a valid comparison to use say ID software and comparing them to some unsigned self distributed pub band.

[Home40]

Buying "commercial" pirated software (which this obviously is) is the worst of all worlds. Not only do legitimate devs and publishers not get your money but crooks and worse (it's a significant source of funding for terrorist organisations) DO get it. Illegal videos were a HUGE source of funds for the IRA at one time and for all I know dodgy DVDs still are.

Yes, keep pirated software 'free'.

Anecdote: I went to a computer fair recently and noticed a tressel with loads of low priced software. I thought the stuff was either old hat or more likely copied. I didn't dwell for long.

Broadband is my tipple and Bill Gates has shares in my connection. I am playing Panzer General II even though my legit copy doesn't actually run properly. I am slowly getting into Hexed TB games.

Anyone furnish me with similar games: OAofW, EAST FRont, West Front??? I'll buy legit if I can find a source.

Links please.

Matrixgames have this kind of stuff in their 'store' but still toooooo pricey for me.

H40

[Hexed Gamer]

Operational Art of War Century of Warfare

http://store.yahoo.com/take2store/centu ... re-pc.html

(note it seems Take2 enjoys keeping this item hard to find on their site).

Panzer General II

http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/panzgen2.htm

Europe in Flames (East Front II and West front)

http://www.navalwarfare.org/build/store ... e/time/ww2

It is occasionally possible to find these titles out there in original retail box release form for only a few bucks.

[Oliver Heindorf]

the same goes for EA games, you can buy all EA major titles in Thailand, very cheap. 17 Euros for the game, 5 for ship ment and voila ! The game manual is in Thai but on EA games no one needs a manual....seems to me that it is NO illegal copy. I know that games are always cheaper in SE Asia. I know a shop here in Hamburg which had imported in the 90's games from the PI instead from the USA. Their US-Versions were cheaper then ordering from the US.

Many ppl have Thai BF 1942 and BF Vietnam versions and play online...the key is valid and its fine.

[Hexed Gamer]

Some times a legit source can actually give you a legit game at a legit price.

It is rare, but not impossible.

As has been mentioned before though (or at least I have seen it posted, maybe not always to this thread though eh), the moment a source makes a sale to a secondary source (ie retail outlet) the secondary source owns the item.

Now unless you have a verifiable written contractual deal stating that secondary source has to sell it at a specific price, really, it is the privilege of the secondary source to do with it as it pleases.

Well that is my take on it, you likely could pay a lawyer to make a federal case out of anything eh.

I like to support the originator of a product, makes sense eh. If they go under, they ain't going to be making any other games any time soon.
But I also have spent most of my time (where computers are concerned) being a johnny come lately.
Hmm I am sure I have bought at least 1 game that was a day one release. But I can't think of the name at the moment.

I spend most of my cash, reluctantly, but often inevitably, through suppliers like CD Access.com. They are often my only choice (or have been on several occasions).

I had to jump through some pretty darn impressive hoops to get my copy of TOAW CoW eh. It's a legit copy, right from Take2. And boy let me tell you, finding the actual page where that game is listed takes some detective work.
You go to their normal homepage, and scan their games on sale, good luck seeing TOAW CoW mentioned. You would almost think they DON'T want you to see it.

Generally when asked, I often tell people "no, they don't sell TOAW any more". Heck I often wonder if the link I use to the game is even valid.

Paid 80 bucks (Canadian) to get my copy through Take2. But not before I had to give blood finding it, it seems.

It's a lot more than just the actual dollar amount involved eh.

Take Matrix Games. How many clicks does it take you from standing stop Matrix Games home page to actually be looking at a complete list of the games they are actually selling right now?

If you google "Matrix Games", you see the link to their home page first page.
Listed on the page, with game graphic of box art inclusive you have
Tin Soldiers
Battles in Normandy
Steel Panthers Generals Edition

That's as good as it is bad.
Now Playing sounds cute and all, but the newcomer will wonder, is it just those three games?

One click on the store tab, one click on relevant flag gets you inside to a bit more detail.

Now I realise they are also selling
War in the Pacific
Starshatter

Of course I wonder, is Steel Panthers Generals Edition being sold in the store?.
It's only when the very careful observant person really studies the page, that they realise, the small word near top right "Features" means this isn't a full listing.

Without wanting to sound mean or overly critical. but I think the page is overly clever.
Matrix Games has a sum total of 21 items in the Genere search category of All Games.
Or put another way, the browser gets to scroll through the whole lot in 2 pages and one item on a third.
Given a choice, I would think just listing all 21 titles by default, and not fussing with a pointless Genre seach list would be simpler.
Not to mention, we wargamers already expend enough energy deciding what is and what isn't a "wargame".
Needless subdivision is really just that, needless subdivision.

My idea of a pefect homepage, would be the page that results from selection All Games, and have that proudly appear as it does, right in the middle of the page, immediately upon typing in the initial Matrix Games homepage url.
But that's just me.

Nothing ever beats clarity eh.
In two pages, a person sees all 21 titles on sale.
It would likely be easier to design into the page, a flag function drop down menu that allows for the showing of relevant prices. And just display the default US price initially.
Anyone that thinks that the listed base US price is the end of the story, is dim (yeah I called some of you dim, get over it).

Sometimes the biggest obstacle to doing business easily, is the business itself not making doing business easy.

[Marc von Martial]

Take Matrix Games. How many clicks does it take you from standing stop Matrix Games home page to actually be looking at a complete list of the games they are actually selling right now?

One.

[Hexed Gamer]

Very illustrative post Marc, but for the readership, care to actually explain your "one" click process?

[Home40]

Thanks HG.

The sites seem to be based in the US, I'm in the UK.

I'll have a mooch around various local shops and stuff before I go ordering. Especially since the type of games I'm looking at are probably gathering dust in original boxes, passed over in favour of 3D shooters.

I realise that Matrix are offering a unique service by providing this 'generation' of game even more keenly.

H40

[Hexed Gamer]

Keep in mind Home4o.

In most cases, a game (one that is a physical article), is usually either a difficult purchase online for a european, or a simple purchase for an american that might cost a whole extra 2 bucks to mail to the european as private mail.

And the ways a european can transfer money electronically these days are many for the most part.

[runes]

"Best example I have seen, you go to the Pacific Mall in Agincourt Toronto (called Asiancourt for good reason), and you can buy goods that are obviously imports for prices you sure won't be paying if it came from the real source"


Ah yes, the home of Mod Chips and $5 playstation games

[ravinhood]

But of course it´s the game industry (or music) that are bad guys, because of the "insane" prices . The pirates are only the modern Robin Hoods that give the product to the little man on the street.

I like that analogy, modern day Robin Hoods, and, in a way they really are, stealing from the rich and the gouging high prices of the oppressors and giving to the poor.

I think what everyone has to look at on a "reasonable" basis, people are going to be people, people that are buying at these prices are more than likely "unknowing" why these prices are so cheap and don't care. Don't you think? As long as some feel they are doing a legal and righteous thing, they have no care about why it's cheaper. Of course some have "suspicisons (Marc)" as to why the prices are so cheap, but, suspicisions are like opinions as well, unfounded suspicions without proof are much like any other unfounded opinion.

When I read the computer gaming and video industry garnered over 6 BILLION dollars last year, I'm sorry, I have not much symphathy for them, no more symphathy than I would for Donald Trump or Bill Gates if they all of a sudden lost their millions. They are not family, they are not friends, they are not even associates, so why should the "common joe" care if they make any money or stay in business?

The common joe only cares about one thing and one thing only, COMMON JOE. If one business goes out the door, another one crops up, have we lost our gaming rights because 3DO, SSI, Microprose, 3sixty, Talonsoft, etc. etc. have lost their jobs, gone out of business? LOL No we haven't and to keep making replies that there will be no more computer games if this keeps up is rediculous, because there's always going to be someone else to pick up the torch and try try try again. It's just human nature, and the American Capitalistic way.

I don't support "piracy that I am aware of", but, all you are proporting Marc is your "suspicions" that these are pirates, you don't present not one bit of evidence that they are. Now, if you can toss us some NEWS clippings that Thailand/Taiwan/Japan are all producing pirated software and selling it at reduced costs in the states, I might believe your "rant". Otherwise that's all it is. Showing me some offbeat website, also does not prove that THESE software outlets are pirates themselves.

As far as issues with this software, I've had no issues with "patches", "cd-keys" or anything with the games not working. I believe that is just a means to "scare off" perspective buyers to these cheaper software prices.

Now of course I didn't buy that War in the Pacific title on ebay that I saw for $4.99, obviously that was too extreme and did reek of piracy (not to mention I of course KNEW WitP was direct sales only). But, these games coming from Thailand/Taiwan have the representation of legal software at reduced prices. And since I know that the retail price is not what the merchants pay, and since I was in the "wholesale" software business for a time, I know exactly how much software sells to the wholesale/distributers for. It's like Hexed Gamer said, 20 cents for the cd and $5 to $10 for the program, the rest is milk money.

Matrix's physical costs to create WitP and SSG to produce BiN are minimal at best, the retail cost is so expensive, because they have gone to DIRECT sales, DIRECT download and their customer base will suffer greatly (so they can make lots of money). Sooooooo, to compensate for the customer base loss, they just increase the price to their "dedicated" fans. Isn't that sad, that fans out there are paying the full load of the game development. While others will get it "free" or some cheaper price on an auction site, or other sale outlet. This is where it bothers me most and why I have looked for other means to obtain software at reduced prices. It rips the crap out of me that thousands are getting these games for "free" and I WAS paying full retail price for them and getting less value for them than I did games of the 80's, early 90's. I won't turn to "known piracy", but, I will look for deals and buy those deals, unless those deals are "proven" beyond a "shadow of a doubt" just like in our judicial system, that they are illegal. In my book everyone is innocent until "proven" guilty, that's our judicial system and that's the way it should be.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Home40

Yes, keep pirated software 'free'.

That is NOT what I was saying. The point I was making is that "free" hurts less people than buying pirated games... that doesn't make it right any more than burglary is "right" because the law views it less severely than murder.

[Pippin]

Ah yes, the home of Mod Chips and $5 playstation games

There are some developers / publishers who will even hand out free Mod chips to beta testers these days. Ironically, it is more cost effective to do so. That is why it is done.

[ravinhood]

Actually Joe, I WANT games released, where it is the norm, that some aspect of the game requires a person come online and get some "thing" to make the file work.

Would it bother me if I had to log on to Matrix Games to make a purchase run? Nope.

Would it bother me if the only way I could get the inevitable patches etc was to log on and prove I had it honestly? Nope

The problem with that idea Hexed is that you now force everyone that owns a game to have some form of internet connection cable and/or phone.

Now, if all this is provided "free of charge" to the consumer, say from the retail outlet, and the registration and code number given there at the retailer, this would be a good idea.

But, if they think piracy of music and software is bad now, wait until "everyone" owns an internet connection just like a telephone or a tv. We're still in the infancy of all of this, when you connect the whole world up, piracy will be 10 fold if not worse. And it won't just be music and software, it will be banks and savings and loans, nearly all kinds of financial institutions, oh man I foresee some great cataclysms in the futue of the internet.

I persoanlly wish they would take all banking systems offline. Local office connections and data storage is fine, but, exposing millions of people to have access to that data and "claiming" it is "secure", lol, nothing is secure about the internet, that's been proven already.

[Hexed Gamer]

It might be partly where I live I suppose.

I don't know anyone that isn't on the net.

And among people I know personally, we tend to consider anyone without broadband as "underpriviledged".
That is likely grossly inaccurate globally.

But I turn on the tv and they are advertising these doodads where you can earn cash as a sort of business by placing these "things" sort of internet portals much like an ATM in where ever sort of locations.
Not sure if the devices have a future, 5 years from now we will see.

But the whole process of going online, at least in these parts, is something that seems as common as owning a car or a phone.
Canadians are also cell phone intensive by population.
It doesn't matter where I go, I am certain to walk past a dozen people talking on one during a walk from point a to point b.

I agree with that banking comment though. A friend has tried to coax me into doing my banking online. The ability to not spend a few bucks a month on service fees though, just isn't attractive enough.
I also don't have a credit card, so a person will have a much harder time taking the 10 bucks they might find in my bank account

It seems most email based viruses hit and transmit through office computers.
I think if all office using computers rethought how they transmit internet data they might be better off. Not to mention, I have lost track of how often people comment they game from the office
If it was my business, you can assume there would really be a crack down on how much connectivity I wanted with any of the computers in the office.

Computers are supposed to be a tool, not the weakest link hehe.

[ravinhood]

Yeah that too, people are "gaming" while at work, when they should be "working". See what the internet has done. Sending emails back in forth to that cute new secretary in the 2nd building over. lol No wonder our economy is in the mess it's in, too much gaming and flirting and not enough producing.

Heh, but, even before the internet at work, people were always finding ways of "sluffing" off, spending 30 min to an hour in the restroom reading some "gaming magazine". Strategy and Tactics was the magazine I took to work. I remember once I was a delivery driver in the oilfield and I purposefully always drove the speed limit 55 back then and made sure I got caught by every light. lol My boss used to get upset because it took me twice as long as others to make a delivery to the same place and I would always state, "if you're willing to pay my speeding tickets and insurance, I'll be more than happy to oblidge you", of course he wouldn't do that dontchaknow.

When I worked at the post office, lord many of you don't even want to know this, some patrons would break the seals on girly magazines that people ordered and read them (heh I say read them more like look at the pictures) in their booths instead of tossing mail, they would also eat your mommies cookies that were mailed overseas, see, mom would send those things almost fresh baked and you must know the aroma from the box was tremendous, sooooooooo, some patrons would throw the box so hard against the post-con that of course the box would rupture and break and well, of course it had to be removed and the rule was, if it was perishable, it was edible by the staff. lol Cookies, home-made candies, so many things like that didn't make it to their destination.

I one time found mail under a machine over "two years" old. Someone got in a rush or didn't want to crank up these huge machines just to run one more batch of mail, so they just tossed it under the machine and there it laid for 2 years until I came along being "neat and tidy" like I am, and I saw something out of the corner of my eye as I was cleaning up mail off the floor and low and behold found that tray of mail under the machine.

Then we had the deviates, don't ever put FRAGILE on your packages, they have some members at the PO that just enjoy playing baseball or football with those packages against the backs of the steel post-cons.

And if you ever wonder why some of your mail takes so long to get from point A to point B, even when it's in your local city, you can thank the "booth sleepers" for that, some would sleep or try to sleep their whole tour and only crank up when the supervisors came in and said WAKE UP, nobody gets fired at the Post Office (they get an extended paid vacation after the Union gets done), it takes an act of congress to fire anyone and the Union will immediately get them reinstated within a short period of time. One patron was "let go" and was gone for 2 years, when he came back he got a full 2 years pay and reinstated to his old position and of course didn't do anything just like before he was let go. lol

This is in my opinion just another form of "piracy" in our world, the piracy of non production while you are getting paid. It's not just the PO either, it's common place in all walks of life, piracy of software and music is just more open and gets more media attention.

The disgruntled employees you read about are those that were basically "informers", now non-working people didn't like "informers" so, the "supervisors" made life hell for those types. They would be given all the worst possible jobs like culling the mail or stacking belts, actually WORK lol, they would get written up for taking longer than 10 minute breaks, while 1/2 the rest of the place took 20 to 30 min breaks. Most supervisors were just promoted postal employees and they also had what they called 204b's, merely a postal employee with supervisor authority for that night. 204b's could be the worst, if they had a grudge against you from working on the floor, pray you weren't under them that night.

Soooooo before I became disgruntled, I just quit, I was to the point of wanting to attack one of my supervisors and just massacre his face a little. lol This man would lie straight faced in front of higher authority, and get away with it, though he did get repremanded for sexual harassment "once", but, this guy did it quite more often than once.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Now, they might be copying the art for the boxes and cd's and a perfect rendition of the manual in their perspective languages, but, don't you think that wouldn't be cost effective if they were truely pirates? A pirate would want to gain every penny they could and "only" offer a cd and no manual or box I would think.

I could point you to a lot of websites in Asia and Russia that sell our games as "legal" copies, with box, manuals etc. Funny though that we do not have any deals with them and on top of that never did authorize anybody to translate manuals to asian or russian languages.

These Ebay "sales from somwhere" are popping up like mushrooms. Because you can "legally" sell copied software shipped from somwhere on this planet and thus avoid prosecutions with a very high percentage. I´m not saying everybody that sells software cheaper then the standard shelf price is doing this illegally, but a lot do.

They add boxes, manuals to make it look more legal or official, thus generating more sales as they lure people into thinking that they buy a legal copy. Pirates are not dumb.

And what else is installed with the game I wonder.... probably some nice worms and other stuff even a backdoor into your PC...

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Buying "commercial" pirated software (which this obviously is) is the worst of all worlds. Not only do legitimate devs and publishers not get your money but crooks and worse (it's a significant source of funding for terrorist organisations) DO get it. Illegal videos were a HUGE source of funds for the IRA at one time and for all I know dodgy DVDs still are.

Or put simply.. your "bargain buy" might be financing the next bomb that kills fifty kids in Iraq. I hestitate to say this as illegal is still illegal, and developers must get money for our hobby to survive.. but if people MUST pirate at least peer-to-peer doesn't bankroll Osama bin Laden... it just bankrupts developers.

Humm.. now that makes one think, if the USA traces from Osama to an pirate and they nail the pirate and get the pirates customer list, it might be a stretch but all the buyers might be liable to be arrested for supporting terrorism and for an US buyer it could be bad..

[dinsdale]

No, unless you have knowledge, or a reasonable man should have had knowledge of exactly where the funds were going then no, you wouldn't be liable.

Consider that most of the population of the US would be liable for funding the mafia if the culpability trail never ended: Consider buying something from a store which pays protection to organised crime.

Nice scaremongering though, do you work for Herr Rumsfeld?

[ravinhood]

LOL Dinsday good one Herr Rumsfield! LOL