Should Allied carriers bother to fight in 1942?

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Dadman has also won a CV battle early in war. It was against 2 IJN CVL but they launched a strike that did no damage.
It is not just a Japanese bias. When the USN fights a IJN force that is larger during the period the A6m2 still has it's combat bonus the Japanese have an advantage that is known to the Allied player before he commits to the battle...

I attacked with 2 CVs vs his 2 CVL, just about 2 on 1. He knew his CVLs were toast, but the gamble on my part was whether or not his B5N Kates would hit my CVs or not. Thankfully, they were shredded by CAP and AA fire (both his CVLs launched full strikes.)

It didn't matter if I was spotted or not, because I think he knew I was coming, what matters is that he spotted me that day on my approach.

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Is it worth it to fight carrier battles for the US in 1942? Can you achieve decent results?

I'd say you went looking for trouble, and you found it. You've had two CV battles. The net result is Japan 1CV 2CVL sunk, 3CV 1 CVL out of action to USN 2CV sunk 2CV slightly damaged (the same ones that later sank or others?) I'd say USN comes out ahead overall, but only you can say whether you consider the result to have been worthwhile (seems like you don't). And taking on 5 carriers with 2, well, I have to agree, what did you expect? Compare the two battles and I think you will find the proper lesson: jump on IJN secondary carrier groups where ever you find them, approach primary carrier groups at your peril.

Holy Crap! Were I in Mogami's shoes, I'd be crying hard! But I'm not, and Mog's a trouper... When he plays me, he could lose his entire Navy and still kill me in the end. That's what love about playing him.

[Jon_Hal]

I've got to say against he AI I've had Midway type results happen both ways to me. Against Humans I've only managed to have one carrier battle and that was the Lexington vs. 3 small Jap carriers. Net result. One of the Jap Carriers sunk and the LExingtontakeing damage. Those Buffalos didn't do half bad [:D]

[mlees]

Battle of the Coral Sea (7-8 May '42)
USN: CV's Lexington and Yorktown (Lexington sunk, Yorktown hvy dmg)
IJN: CV's Shokaku, Zuikaku CVL Shoho (Shoho sunk, Shokaku hvy dmg)

Battle of Midway (4-6 June '42)
USN: CV's Yorktown, Hornet, Enterprise (Yorktown disabled by air attack, later sunk by sub)
IJN: CV's Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu (All sunk by air attack), plus 2 CVL's that did not engage. (They were with invasion force.)

Battle of the Eastern Solomons (23-25 Aug '42)
USN: CV's Enterprise, Saratoga (Enterprise hvy dmg) with Wasp not engaged (refeulling)
IJN: CV's Shokaku, Zuikaku; CVL Ryujo (Ryujo sunk, an AP sunk, 75 aircraft lost vs. 25 us airmen)

Battle of Santa Cruz (25-27 Oct '42)
USN: CV's Enterprise, Hornet (Hornet sunk, Enterprise hvy dmg, 81 aircraft lost)
IJN: CV's Shokaku, Zuikaku; CVL's Junyo, Zuiho (Shokaku and Zuiho hvy dmg, 91 aircraft lost)

http://www.combinedfleet.com/map.htm

My long winded point: Not all carrier battles were so one sided. 2 CV's vs 5 CV's and 1 CVL, you should have been toast! You should never pin your hope on not being spotted. Where the forces were even, both sides seem to suffer roughly the same damage. Pick fights only where you absolutely NEED to, not because your sick of getting your butt kicked for the first six months of the war.

As a further illustration:
Battle of the Philippine Sea (19-20 June '44)
USN: CV's Hornet, Yorktown, Bunker Hill, Wasp, Enterprise, Lexington, Essex; CVL's Belleau Wood, Bataan, Monterey, Cabot, Princeton, San Jacinto, Cowpens, Langley with 950 aircraft.
(130 aircraft lost, BB South Dakota dmg)

IJN: CV's Zuikaku, Shokaku, Taiho; CVL's Hiyo, Junyo, Ryuho, Chiyoda, Chitose, Zuiho with 480 aircraft embarked, another 1200 (!) LBA.
(Hiyo sunk by air, Shokaku and Taiho sunk by subs, approx half of the air assets lost.)

Despite this result, Spruance was accused of being too timid. In his defence, he felt that it was more important to stay near the invasion area and protect the transports from any surprise "end arounds" by IJN surface units.

[mogami]

Hi, As a side note to the battle. (concerning the element of surprise) The IJN TF had 3xCS included. The total number of float planes in the TF was 69. The USN long range scout is the SBD range of 4. The IJN TF had 20xAlf range of 7 on patrol and a number of other scouts with range a 5 and 4 (and 20 or so Petes set to ASW range 1) As far of number of scouts out the morning of the battle I am willing to bet the Japanese had more and had longer range then USN not to mention the Mavis and Emily groups at Tulagi and at a advanced Japanese base established just for patrol/recon. Of course the USN had patrol planes from Noumea up.

(The USN TF was also reported by a glen from IJN sub 1 hex away)

[esteban]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, As a side note to the battle. (concerning the element of surprise) The IJN TF had 3xCS included. The total number of float planes in the TF was 69. The USN long range scout is the SBD range of 4. The IJN TF had 20xAlf range of 7 on patrol and a number of other scouts with range a 5 and 4 (and 20 or so Petes set to ASW range 1) As far of number of scouts out the morning of the battle I am willing to bet the Japanese had more and had longer range then USN not to mention the Mavis and Emily groups at Tulagi and at a advanced Japanese base established just for patrol/recon. Of course the USN had patrol planes from Noumea up.

(The USN TF was also reported by a glen from IJN sub 1 hex away)

For the first year of the war or so, packing Rufes on your CS' that are accompanying KB is a decent idea. They do not completely suck against F4Fs, and they are certainly more useful than Petes.

[mogami]

Hi, I only have 1 group of Rufes (9 aircraft) and they are currently assigned to defending a base that has no regular airfield. The Petes are fine for what they are made for. (ASW in the hex the TF is located in)

[Gem35]

All I have to say is that Jap carrier TF is basicaly unchallenged untill the USN can upgrade their Torp planes and DB's, the Jap range alone is an unfair fight even if USN carrier TF has 5 flatops in early '42( assuming you are lucky enough to not have lost any up untill then $$)


But, to answer your Question on whether to use them, OF COURSE, just don't try to take on the Jap carriers hehe..I use them to pound islands that I plan to invade, namely the Marshals . or even steam them up past Port Morsby into the Darwin area and maybe stem the tide of jap expansion there...don't ya just love this game ? [:D]

[tsimmonds]

don't ya just love this game ?

Ohh, yeah...

[doktorblood]

Just thought I would butt in here ... for a situation to be "like Midway" wouldn't the Japanese have to have about 2/3 of their strike aircraft sent off to attack a land target?

[ctid98]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

Just thought I would butt in here ... for a situation to be "like Midway" wouldn't the Japanese have to have about 2/3 of their strike aircraft sent off to attack a land target?

I think its more a case of being able to attack without being attacked yourself. I had one game in UV where I was able to attack in the morning without reply as I hadn't been spotted, but in the afternoon both sides launched attacks.

I think this is the situation Svient was hoping for. Unfortunately the minute you're spotted it all goes to pieces.

I think you have to face each engagement as if you're going to be spotted and they're going to throw everything at you. From that worst case scenario anything like not being spotted, or an enemy air group on ground attack and not coming at you is a bonus.

Therefore, hoping for a good result from 5 v 2 was being a little too optimistic.

[Toro]

Just a quick comment. I'm not really sure why we, as players, expect a Midway-like event to happen in this game as a matter of course. That was a culmination of bad judgment and sheer bad luck, frankly (or good luck, depending on your nationality [;)] ). If WW2 were to run again (being hypothetical for a moment), I doubt Midway would happen just how it did before. Call it Providence or sheer dumb luck, but I don't think we'd see the same results. Yes, truth is stranger than fiction, but we should not expect the strange to happen every game.

Another small note: we're talking 2 CVs against 5+ CVs, right? And why didn't you expect to be crushed? Sure, you may have been tracking them for days, but all that really matters is what happens on the engagement day, not before.

Just my thoughts...

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Toro

Just a quick comment. I'm not really sure why we, as players, expect a Midway-like event to happen in this game as a matter of course. That was a culmination of bad judgment and sheer bad luck, frankly (or good luck, depending on your nationality [;)] ). If WW2 were to run again (being hypothetical for a moment), I doubt Midway would happen just how it did before. Call it Providence or sheer dumb luck, but I don't think we'd see the same results. Yes, truth is stranger than fiction, but we should not expect the strange to happen every game.

Another small note: we're talking 2 CVs against 5+ CVs, right? And why didn't you expect to be crushed? Sure, you may have been tracking them for days, but all that really matters is what happens on the engagement day, not before.

Just my thoughts...

In this case, the carrier numbers were skewed toward Mogami, and the Japanese CS float planes are going to make getting the jump on the IJN tough for the USN regardless of previous spotting activity. This is a battle that I would have avoided. Still, I think that previous spotting needs to make more of a difference, and it doesn't seem to be significant enough.

I think the reduction from day to day on DL's may be a bit much. Repeated spotting by aircraft from turn to turn never seems to return more accurate information. I was tracking a task force that contained 10 ships (as near as I can tell), I knew 10 of them by name due to sub encounters and I had 6 submarine float planes doing naval search on them continuously for about 4 days. The task force was moving at 2 knots (crippled BB returning from PH to West Coast), and the task force had no CAP over it. There were supposed to be 4 float planes in the TF (though how a BB as badly damaged as this one was could possibly fly off float planes is another question). Despite that, I never got an accurate listing of the ship types, let alone class names or ships.

Logically, I had a bunch of things in my favor. No CAP, very slow TF, previous spotting, ship names, etc. The only things that might have been problems are pilot experience and weather, though I think both of those should have been at least acceptable.

[Ron Saueracker]

If the Japanese get greedy, over confident, and careless in the game as they did historically, the opportunity will arise when it is well worth risking a confrontation between the opposing carrier fleets. There is no need to swing your dick and engage the Jap CV just for the sake of it. If the little nipper moves too far astray, a CV exchange will conceivably cripple KB due to distance from major bases. If not, Allied lines of communication stay secure and CVs get better AA, more experienced, better equipped, and more VF. A win win situation (excepting the friggin retard...ooops [:D], respawn feature) for the Allied player. As the Allied player, you must accept that territory will have to be ceded to the little nippers. Make them pay for every inch by bleeding them with air power, subs and long fighting retreats on land. Don't be an idiot and succumb to impatience, it's a long game.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: sveint

Oh well, I admit at them moment I'm a bit perplexed. I'm playing Allies against Japan (Mogami).

Situation on March 29: 2 Allied Carriers receive complete surprise on KB (5 CV and 1 CVL) near Noumea (range 2 hexes, within torpedo bomber range).
Result: Allied carriers sunk and Japanese carriers barely hurt.

This can't be realistic?

Or if it is, in my 2 games as Japan should I just send KB in within Allied LBA as an invincible death star and sink what I like?

Sorry, a bit digrunteled right now. I did everything right and still lost. Shouldn't happen in my book.

Well I just had the opposite happen. Apr 17, 1942 about 300 miles SE of Gili Gili. The full KB TF that attacked PH on day 1 was supporting an amphib op at Port Morseby. A similar American TF of all five early CV's moved up to defend PM. Epic battle. My "Midway". Lost Lexington, will probably lose Yorktown. Saratoga is damaged pretty badly, but Hornet and Enterprise are not even scratched! Sunk all the KB carriers except Hiryu and that one is very badly damaged and out of the war for a long time.

[mogami]

Hi, Well Sveint your first error is claiming you had surprise. You didn't. OK you knew where Japanese CV were on Mar 27 1942.
To be Midway like you would also have to know where they were going to be on Mar 28 and they would have to be unaware of your where abouts.
The first TF spotted in the AM patrol phase was an USN CV TF. End of any chance for surprise. The IJN CV were on patrol. 70 scouts were out. CAP was up. No mission other then Naval Strike was ordered. There was nothing Midway like.
At Midway is was 3 USN CV versus 4 IJN CV. Here it was 5 IJN CV and 1 IJN CVL versus 2 USN CV. Nothing Midway like here.
Actually you keep thinking the IJN got off scot free. 3 IJN CV and 1 CVL were damaged enough that they are not at sea currently during a major Japanese operation.

There never was any surprise and it is unlikely any USN CV TF will ever surprise an IJN TF before the main USN CV aircraft is the long range torpedo plane. (eventually even the SBD were replaced by torpedo groups because of the range)

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

The first TF spotted in the AM patrol phase was an USN CV TF. End of any chance for surprise. The IJN CV were on patrol. 70 scouts were out. CAP was up. No mission other then Naval Strike was ordered. There was nothing Midway like.

Is there a penalty for using the naval strike - airfield/port attack option? Otherwise why would there ever be a Midway? It seems that a secondary mission should have some kind of penalty applied to make it less effective. Then there could actually be a Midway.

[mogami]

Hi, There are major draw backs to using port/airfield attack as secondary mission.
First if the CV are sent to close an airfield to cover another TF (amph landing) and they instead fly naval strikes the airfield attack does not occur. This is good when the strikes are against enemy CV it is bad when the airfield/port attack is canceled so the CV can strike a minesweeper.

Also if there are more then 1 airfield/port in range the strike might go against the wrong one or split in multiple attacks that have less effect.

When used as a secondary target the TF waits for patrol/scout planes to complete their searches. If no enemy TF in range the airfield/port attack is made.

If your not out after a particular tartet then it is safer to use secondary mission if however you are out do something specific then port/airfield primary is better.
The work around I use is I assign part of my groups for port/airfield and leave the rest on pure naval strike. But then you have to send enough CV to complete the mission.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, There are major draw backs to using port/airfield attack as secondary mission.
First if the CV are sent to close an airfield to cover another TF (amph landing) and they instead fly naval strikes the airfield attack does not occur. This is good when the strikes are against enemy CV it is bad when the airfield/port attack is canceled so the CV can strike a minesweeper.

Yes, I have thought about this before when attacking. It might be a good trick to use as well. Here come the carriers, time to set sail with that PG boat. [:D]

[tsimmonds]

Well I just had the opposite happen. Apr 17, 1942 about 300 miles SE of Gili Gili. The full KB TF that attacked PH on day 1 was supporting an amphib op at Port Morseby. A similar American TF of all five early CV's moved up to defend PM. Epic battle. My "Midway". Lost Lexington, will probably lose Yorktown. Saratoga is damaged pretty badly, but Hornet and Enterprise are not even scratched! Sunk all the KB carriers except Hiryu and that one is very badly damaged and out of the war for a long time.

No, that's not the opposite of 2CV vs 5CV 1 CVL; what you describe is a fair fight. Not surprising the USN did well with their large air groups, and with the Japanese attention divided between land and sea.