My God!

[Speedysteve]

I was checking the 44 and 45 campaigns last night - in depth. I have looked at them before but not in depth.

All I can say is my God the Japs are totally outclassed and outnumbered in everything. I knew they would be of course and we all know they lost the war as soon as they started it but the disparity is immense.

I am beginning to regret the decision I have recently made - I have agreed to play HARD_sarge in a 42B Campaign (once the latest patch is released) with me playing as Jap.

I have always enjoyed a challenge but I can see i'm going to get whacked from turn 1.

I am thinking the best and only way is to take as much of him down with me as I can. I guess training pilots is going to be key, as is ASW, defence in depth.

Have others found that getting George's and Frank's out in numbers with experienced pilots makes a difference at all?

Any other suggestions other than pray? [;)]

Regards,

Steven

[freeboy]

Sue for peace?

[Grunty]

If you want a little glimer of hope, go and read a theme named: ''Doh! What not to do..'' in this same forum. [:'(]

regards and long live the emperor[;)]

[Speedysteve]

Sue for peace is not an option [;)]

Ah cheers Grunty. Just seen it. There is hope. Provided Sarge gets over-confident. Not likely!

[Captain Cruft]

I agree the 44/45 preponderance is scary. It is made worse in the stock scenarios though:-

1) The majority of Japanese bases are at the same size as they were in 1941.
2) No land-based airgroups have any good pilots, they're all at c.40 experience. In reality there would still be at least a few good pilots around ...
3) There is no oil/resource whatever in the Home Islands. This also applies to the 42 Campaign scenarios.

Maybe some of these points will have been addressed in 1.30?

[Taiyo]

maybe there should be an option at the beggining: "Start war" - "Don't start war" - "Wait a few years"[;)]

[steveh11Matrix]

Simple: Start game using the Dec'41 start, Computer vs Computer, with all reports etc turned off, and the computer set NOT to divert into screen save, Seti-search, or powersave modes. Run until 1944 and see how it's developed!

(Actually, I'm doing something like this, aiming for an alternative May'42 start.)

Steve.

[Speedysteve]

Captain Cruft -

Thats a good point concerning oil/resources. Even when I start the 42B campaign I will have no stockpiles in Japan.

So any serious thoughts as to long term development as in stalling Sarge?

[Onime No Kyo]

Silly question but has anyone tried to create a scenario where Japan only attacks the SRA. I remember some thread about this from before and I recall hearing that this is impossible because the routines are hard coded to begin hostilities on turn 1. Is this true or is it possible to "isolate" the US just as the USSR is? If it is, has anyone tried?

[Twotribes]

Only attacking British and Dutch holdings wouldnt work. It is reasonable to assume if they had the US would have declared war on Japan, and then they wouldnt have any suprise.

[Hard Sarge]

LOL Steve

don't forget, we still got the Canal to fight, and you can train/gain alot in China

which, if you don't burn yourself out in Canal, you will still have a lot of force left over, and should be able to bring in oil and resourses to the home islands

besides, the main battle is going to be in 42/43,if the game goes to 45, yeapper, it gonna be ruff

which this does not show the other 7 BG's in the area, or the other 4 waiting to come on map or the A Bomb Squadron

HARD_Sarge

[Hipper]

I've allways been interested by that

Only attacking British and Dutch holdings wouldnt work. It is reasonable to assume if they had the US would have declared war on Japan, and then they wouldnt have any suprise.

when does the community think the americans would have joined world war two officially (rather than the USN & Coastguard helping out against the "rattlesnakes" of the atlantic ) if Japan had not attacked at PH (im assuming they sit & do nothing rather than attack the SRA)

I played an old WWII board game which had them joining in mid 42 ...


any other takers ?

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Only attacking British and Dutch holdings wouldnt work. It is reasonable to assume if they had the US would have declared war on Japan, and then they wouldnt have any suprise.

Sorry TT, I wasnt looking for a debate on the issue and agree with you completely. My question was just fun and speculative about what would have happened if only the Brits and Dutch were involved but most of the IJN forces had to be comitted to watching teh US and did not participate.

[Twotribes]

No telling when the US would have acted with out a Japanese Attack. Roosevelt wanted us in but didnt feel he had the needed votes to do it, so he skirted the issue by doing other things to help.

Most War games have the US join in December 41 or January 42 even if the Japanese dont attack. Just an artifice, just like if the Germans dont attack the Soviet Union in 41, most games have her able to do so on her own shortly there after.

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

No telling when the US would have acted with out a Japanese Attack. Roosevelt wanted us in but didnt feel he had the needed votes to do it, so he skirted the issue by doing other things to help.

Most War games have the US join in December 41 or January 42 even if the Japanese dont attack. Just an artifice, just like if the Germans dont attack the Soviet Union in 41, most games have her able to do so on her own shortly there after.

I think you were closer the first time (or maybe I read it that way). I think that any PTO sim needs PH not because the US was so hot to join in the war but because the Japanese themselves would have never allowed for the idea that the US would stay out.

As for the Soviet Union, a lot of stuff has been coming out lately arguing that if Hitler didnt, Stalin would have by the summer of 43 or so.

And all that after I said I wasnt looking for a debate. [:D]

[DrewMatrix]

re the PTO: If the Japanese do _not_ attack to secure oil from the SRA, won't they collapse anyhow due to lack of raw materials? So the Japanese either attack, get lots of people killed, and have their economy collapse or don't attack and have their economy collapse. If they attack the SRA and the PI I suspect the US would enter the war even without an attack on Hawaii.

re the ETO: Assuming the British hold out, and the Germans still attack the USSR, I surmise the USSR wins anyhow (likely with US Lend Lease aid even if the US is not a combatant. Then maybe the Iron Curtain is at the Channel, not in the middle of Germany in 1946?

Just my 0.02

[Twotribes]

Oh I agree, eventually Stalin would have attacked the Germans. I am just saying that most games give you that option as soon or shortly after the German invasion if not conducted.

As for the US Roosevelt was working to acquire the needed votes to join the European war, he wanted in as soon as it started. But with no Japanese attack, there is no ( at least none I have seen) significant evidence he would have gotten that vote in January 42.

With no Japanese attack, it is concievable he never got the vote needed to involve US forces and simply kept supplying the British and then the Soviets with material as he could. Barring a major event in Russia or the Atlantic. The fall of Europe wasnt enough for the isolationists to act though.

Of course we had cut off Japan, they were stuck with no way to adequetly fuel their war machine, they had to shit or get off the pot ( in China). Had they done what Hitler wanted and attacked the Soviet Union, again there is no telling if this would have been enough to draw in the reluctant US electorate. But they couldnt have maintained their economy once the Dutch and British cut them off from resources.

[SpitfireIX]

ORIGINAL: Taiyo

maybe there should be an option at the beggining: "Start war" - "Don't start war" - "Wait a few years"[;)]

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

--W.O.P.R., War Games

[Belce]

Not attacking the US also means leaving the PI's alone which would be a real problem for Japanese communications to the DEI's. Since the goal is to get the SRA, the only sure way is to have the PI, this means an attack on the US. You can not logically consider a Japanese expansion in the SRA without secure line to the area. Also consider why the Japanese were thinking of this expansion, to have actual possession of their resource sources. Their action in China was opposed by the Americans and the Americans stopped trading with the Japanese. Japan came to the conclusion that its prosperity required control over the supply source of their resources. Ignoring the US while going to the SAR would be allowing the US to go to war against the Japan at the time of their choosing with American planes in PI able to cut off any and all gains they achieved in the SRA. Taking the SRA means going to war with the US, all that remains is who decides to start it, and I would think that anyone thinking right would want to be the one making that decision rather than leaving it to another party.

[Speedysteve]

LOL Sarge.

I know I can still have a BIT of fun and I only mean a bit though. Without 4 of the biggies you and I know I have lost the initiative and flexibility for offensive operations. I am looking forward to it though. Have never started a 42 campaign so all new to me.

I aim to drag it out to 45 though. All being well [;)]