The gauntlet is thrown....

Commander Klank · Post by **Commander Klank** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:36 am

I know this isn’t really a find opponent’s forum but this is all in good fun…Right?

Anyways after being battered, bashed and blown to bits by Tiger tanks and the occasional Panther commander supported by SS and engineers on numerous e-mail games I’ve come to the conclusion (as a Soviet player) that their never were any Pz III or Pz IV tanks after late 1942….LOL

Really though are there any German players out here who are willing to fight T-34s with good old MK III J, L and MK IV tanks in a game? You know use only the real “work horses” of the German army most commanders really had to use.

So I’m issuing a challenge to all you goose stepping Panzer Troopers out there…

COME AND GET SOME!

Are you good enough to defeat a superior equipped foe with superior tactics and crews? Or do you just play Germans because they got all the good stuff? MUH HA HA HA!

Here’s the Commander Klank (…(:-]&#8230 <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> challenge: 4500 points each, meeting engagement, CC off, unit rarity off, time: 6/42 restrictions; Germans Mk III and Mk IV tanks only, no 88mm flak guns, one unit of Stugs (sp), Russians no KV tanks. Map: a huge custom brigade map (from internet) of central Russia (3 whole maps). Setup: Germans setup NW corner of top map Russians setup SE corner of bottom map. VLs: Who cares, I kill you you kill me (fair enough?).

I want a huge map (you can look at it first) so we can really do a lot of maneuvering before we meet on the field of battle.

So the gauntlet is thrown. Who dares to step up to the plate? Let’s have a real eastern front tank battle.

Anyways E-mail me if you’re interested (preferences are negotiable). I’m an eastern front enthusiast who would like to see how an Mk III and VI force would do against a T-34 force. I’m an intermediate commander so there’s nothing remarkable about my tactics; I attack in mass and ignore casualties if I can (how typically Soviet).

So whom do you think will win? Steel over brains or brains over steel?

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 7:20 pm

Best way to separate the real warriors from the penis-envy gotta-be-tigers type players is make them fight ya on equal terms in 50% of the games.

How do I personally do this? Tell them half of their battles will be in France circa 1940 versus your Matildas if they cant leave the Tigers at home occasionally. Nothing like the other side completely trashing you to learn a bit of balanced perspective eh.

I have a friend that behaves the same way. Wont leave the Tigers at home ever. So he fights half his fights in early war battles on my terms. Man I love watching his forces try to take out a column of Matildas or in Russia, trying to deal with my KV1s. And no, them 88s wont save his bacon, cause I use smoke screens. He cant hit what he cant see.

Any player that wont play half their battles on the other guys terms, is basically just insecure in personality and not reeeeally capable of playing a good game (its the same thing when rolegaming players wont play anything but mega sword wielding massively armoured PCs, they are just compensating for something they think they dont have).

toundra · Post by **toundra** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 7:37 pm

I'll try!
But why no 88 flak guns?
Anyway i am agree.
btw only short 75mm? or can i use long 75mm?

My Email : drakken22@hotmail.com

PS: usualy i don't play with comand on and i don't play with air planes they are wasting the fun and the surprise =)

Send me your scenario.
we can even play Assault/Defense, i can assault or defend this is not a problem.

oh and LOTS of turns please =)
i am playing with the 7.0

I like woods and hills!!!

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Toundra ]</p>

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:05 pm

Toundra, It'd be fair for you to use the KwK 75mm L/43 & L/48 (at least in my opinion). IV G, H, J's were commonplace in the later half.

L/43 was used from spring -42 to spring -43, the L/48 after that.

And we get to bring our Stug's, don't we Cmdr Klank? <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:11 pm

I have an aversion to those who want only the biggest, baddest monster hardware they can field, as well. Having such makes up for a lack of tactics, but generally makes for sloppy play. You make a mistake and the armor lets you survive to make the same mistake over.

I'm in a play by email game with Panthers and Tigers available, but made sure I took some Pzkw IIIs as well. I think the 50mm AT gun with the mobility of a Pz III is a nasty toy to deal with. A friend and I did one of the Scenarios with those and Russian T34/85s and my little Pz IIIs were ripping them up (of course, I had ASL ezperience and he didn't). Double team and flank works really well. I skinned the Tiger in the Tiger hunt tutorial scenario with Shermans the same way.

In an open field with long visability, no, the Pz III won't stand a chance against the T34s. The accuracy and better penetration of the 76s give too big an edge. Give me terrain and some recon spotters and you can call the scrap man to pick up your tank, Klank. I've eaten Matildas with them too -- and only had 37 mm guns.

I prefer C&C on, because that's part of the tactics: If you can move everything, anywhere you want, it gives an advantage to the bigger tank or the bigger force since you can swing the entire front to face oncoming flankers with out penalty for not planning ahead. I also like rarity on because you have to deal with the supply issue and fill in with the smaller workhorses you want the Germans to use.

So, modified: date 6/42, 4500 pts, meeting engagement, C&C on, rarity on, time ?:

Germans: Pzkw IIIs, Pzkw IVs, StuGs, No 88s
Russians: No KVs, No AT guns over 37mm

Are you including infantry in this mix, or is it all ATs and AFVs? The AT gun size limit for the Russians is the trade for me not taking 88s. If I can't have the biggest and baddest, you have to take some limitations as well. As far as unit mix goes, "One unit" of StuG could mean a Section, a Platoon, or a Company. That's why I prefer rarity on; the limits on both sides are historic and we just have to deal with it.

With 4500 pts, I can get maybe three full companies of armor, or an good mix of armor, infantry and support. If there are woods, hills and flats, and you don't have too much of a terrain advantage, this could be a delightful little battle. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Using 7.0 and I hope there are some objectives besides taking T34s apart.

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:51 pm

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Best way to separate the real warriors from the penis-envy gotta-be-tigers type players is make them fight ya on equal terms in 50% of the games.

When i play the Germans I rarely take Tigers, the Pantehr is such a superior tank. I even avoid teh Panther with the 8.8 cm gun, just a few A's and D's... I like using Mk IIIs for recon, supported by Mk IVs to deal with the initial enemy cavalry screen.

Commander Klank · Post by **Commander Klank** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 6:34 am

Ok guys I'll be getting to you. I'll be sending the map files tonight Jan 23, 2002.

For now I must call a check fire on the challanges. I got enough for now.

However if there are any other Soveit players who want to pick up the "slack" lets give these Kruts the thrashing of thier lives while thier begging for it! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

E-mail me for the map or make your own.

Hey I might have started something here <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

pops · Post by **pops** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:04 am

...animal magnetism....

Lost Lieutenant · Post by **Lost Lieutenant** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 12:25 pm

You in 4th ID or 1st CD Commander Klank?

Commander Klank · Post by **Commander Klank** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:50 am

I was in 2-20 FA BN (Bravo Battery, 1st Fireing Platoon) in the 4th ID. I've retired (SFC) now (been over a year now) and work at the Property Management Office, Material Fielding Team (PMO,MFT)on the corner of Hood Rd. and North Ave. fielding new equipment to the Army.

Getting that job was one the better breaks I've gotten in life. Didn't have to move or notheing, just turned left instead of right to go to work in the morning now a days <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Commander Klank ]

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Commander Klank ]</p>

swagman · Post by **swagman** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:30 am

I too find it annoying playing superforces...more like Mechwarrior than WW2.

There is a number of ways to deal with this:

First, let the AI select the forces...it doesn't do a bad job in most cases...the important think is to set rarity OFF, since the AI will keep picking the same unit trying to create a balanced force, then give up when all the component units became unavailable...before I discovered this I have had dozens of foreign legion companies selected consisting only of trucks, and a total force of 5000 points reduced to 1000 because the AI gave up selection.

Select SOLITAIR and set rarity OFF, then access the battle generator...do your ususal selection, but set both players to human, both BUY to computer and both DEPLOY to human. Save into an email slot and send to your opponent...the buy stage is by-passed completely and you go straight to deploy...the beauty is that artillery is realistic, armour and AT is distributed across types, you have no super weapons like flame tanks, and you have to deal with a reasonable unit list that includes IG guns, SP howitizers, AA, etc which human players offer don't select...and if a player wants to purchase these super weapons (or ammo trucks) he can using his reinforcement points...and pay a penalty for selecting them...I am committed to AI moderated force selection! One word of caution: the battle should be 4000 points plus, to enable the AI enough points to come up with a balanced force...in attack it always chooses a german grenadier company and if playing with less than 2000 points you get little more.

The next option is to agree to select according to TOE (Scott Helm has sent me his, and we are playing an excellent and challenging games). Players must choose, scaled according to battle points. The opponents choose a unit TOE such as a strengthened infantry battalion, mech infantry battalion or armoured battalion, and must choose units according to the force composition...a player can still select a company of panthers...but can't select two...

The third option is to agree in advance to a point structure, for example:
minimum 2000 points infantry
maximum 2000 points armour of which only 800 can be heavy (tiger or panther)
minimum 1000 points recon
maximum 1000 points artillery
In the real war, units knew what divisions they were facing, and so had an idea of the likely units they would have to deal with...this gives some intelligence in the force breakdown, but not the particular weapons at play.

Anyone interested playing a game or having help setting one up can let me know...email me or post.
1000

Lost Lieutenant · Post by **Lost Lieutenant** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:48 am

Yeah, Killeen is my hometown - if an Army brat has a hometown. I noticed your location at the bottom and was just curious. I'm about to be a 2LT, hopefully if I don't get Germany for my #1 duty station pick I'll get Ft. Hood. I'd be nice to be back in God's Country (Texas to most folks) once again.

Tomanbeg · Post by **Tomanbeg** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:04 pm

Ok, any body want the Soviets, I'll take germans, w/o tigers or long '75's. C & C on though.
My E-Mail is chacmas@yahoo.com I lost the password for my tomanbeg box, and all my other boxes too. There has to be half a dozen guys cussing me bad. If you want the germans I'll take the soviets in july '41 with rarity on. Bt-5's vs Pz-III's and Pz-38(t)'s
T.(who never had much luck with combat command. I would get E-mails saying that I was being challenged, but without a way to respond to the challenge. It would piss me off).

[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Tomanbeg ]</p>

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 7:41 pm

By the way, a few of these have started with Klank. I think we should consider AARs listing the forces and a brief description of the battle when we're finished.

Nothing like a good gloat after a battle.

David boutwell · Post by **David boutwell** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:47 am

Born in Corsicana, TX and grew up, from the age of three in Cameron, TX (forty-five miles from Killeen). Parents grew up in Temple, grandparents all lived in Temple, and I lived in Temple for 8 years. Worked for the Corps of Engineers at Belton Lake out of College, and taught for Belton ISD for eight years. Brother lives 15 miles from Bush ranch. Went to the hobby shop in Killeen, and caught American Eagle out of Killeen all the time. Did all of my partying, shopping, etc. in Austin. Fly into Ausin when I go home to see family. The point is, you guys are all from my stomping grounds! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Difference is, I got tired of the damned Fire Ants, drought and hellish climate, flat land, etc. (I don't know about God's country, and it's too hot for the Devil..) I can bitch about it because I was born and raised there and practiced football and ran track in it for 6 years! Watched the limestone bedrock and Mesquite suck every drop of water out of my yard. It sucked! I live in Virginia now, in sight of the Blue Ridge, Potomac and Shenandoah Rivers and Shenandoah National Park. Bull Run's headwaters are down the street. About ten Civil War engagements occurred within ten miles of my house. Hell, Custer fell off of his horse and into a creek near my house during the Gettysburg campaign. James Monroe's house is ten miles from me. The Constitution was hidden from the Brits in 1812 at a plantation house near me. The only surviving Confederate reunion house is near me. I can go on and on. I even get snow! So, I have to say that I'm in God's Country now.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I'll still claim TX as home, though..

Regards,

David Boutwell

Lost Lieutenant · Post by **Lost Lieutenant** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:28 pm

It really is a small world. I lived in Northern VA for years, in Stafford Co. right near Aquia. All my family lives up there - Grandparents in Arlington and the other set in Woodbridge, one uncle in Manassas and the other in Fredericksburg. VA is ok, but you'll never get the great winter temps of God's Country <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:24 pm

First off, Texas is hot, dry and just about everything tries to stick, sting or bite you. Whoever coined the phrase "God's Country" for this place obviously didn't live here very long. In fact there are two songs that claim (seperately) that "After living in Texas he'll go to heaven when he dies 'cause he served his time in hell;" the second describes Hell and says it sounds a lot like Texas.

Every summer I ask myself why I moved back here and come up short an answer.