Minefield problems...

Lost Lieutenant · Post by **Lost Lieutenant** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:59 am

I'm currently playing "Watchword Freedom" and am in the third scenario of the campaign. My mission is to take a trio of Russian-held bridges to support follow-on missions. This area is heavily defended - and heavily mined. I've got 2 "Minenram Pz-III"s, but they seem to be completely ineffective in clearing paths through minefields for me. They get through minefields just fine, but any troops/vehicles following them just run smack into the minefield. Is there some trick to clearing minefields with mineclearing tanks? If not, then I fail to see any real use for these tanks, and my attack is going to stall miserably. For the sake of my Joes and my sanity, please help!

Don Doom · Post by **Don Doom** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 3:55 pm

Originally posted by Lost Lieutenant:
I'm currently playing "Watchword Freedom" and am in the third scenario of the campaign. My mission is to take a trio of Russian-held bridges to support follow-on missions. This area is heavily defended - and heavily mined. I've got 2 "Minenram Pz-III"s, but they seem to be completely ineffective in clearing paths through minefields for me. They get through minefields just fine, but any troops/vehicles following them just run smack into the minefield. Is there some trick to clearing minefields with mineclearing tanks? If not, then I fail to see any real use for these tanks, and my attack is going to stall miserably. For the sake of my Joes and my sanity, please help!

Morning.
Well for starters the vehicals act just like engineers, they find minefields then they have to sit in the field to remove the mines. Some have them facing the minefield to clear it. So in other words you attack will slow down abit to wait for minefields paths to be cleared. Or use heavy artilliary on one hex for about three to four turns depending on many are cleared during each barrage.
Good luck and have fun.
<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:16 pm

Does anyone know for certain what they claim on minefield clearance? I ask this, because I've yet to see an engineer clear mines in more then one hex at a time (or mineclearing tanks). My observation has been that engineers only clear the hex they're pointing at (and i have had mine-clearing tanks work too), though I haven't tested that deliberately, just observation. Even if it does clear more than one type of hex, albeit the hex they are in and the one they're pointing at, I'm thinking they will only clear the hex they're pointing at first, then the one they're in.

I wonder if people are getting the infantry and engineer roles mixed up in this? IF engineers are clearing more than one hex at a time, that certainly isn't right. Is there any rule documentation to suggest they clear more than one hex at a time?

FWIW I believe mine-clearing tanks work as I believe engineers do, in that they won't clear mines in their own hex, but only in the hex they're facing. What's been reported here that the mine clearing isn't happening, and that he goes through the hex fine, indicates attempts at clearing the same hex (unless he doesn't give it enough time etc) which as I'm thinking will never work with engineers or mine-clearers.

Resisti · Post by **Resisti** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:33 pm

Charles-22,

guess you're wrong on this.

Engineers and eng tanks canclear mines both in the same hes they are OR (not at the same time,therefore) in adjacent hex which they are facing to (this is true also for DEPLOYING mines).
"Normal" infantry units can clear mines,too, at a lower pace, but MUST be in the SAME hex with mines.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:40 pm

Resisti: I would like to assume that you're correct, only the fact that engineers "don't" make mines in their own hex (at least as of V6.1) would leave me to question that.

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:07 pm

Resisti is right. I have an engineer in a mined hex in a game I am currently playing and it's clearing mines quite nicely. Another in an adjacent hex to another mined hex is doing so as well. The surprise is that the surviving crew of a now-dead AC is clearing the minefield it's sitting on as well -- I knew regular rifle squads did this, but I didn't know a crew unit would.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:12 pm

Challenge: Crews clearing? Yes, I've seen that and posted it too, but I don't know if anyone believed me. I believe scouts (although for the two-man units it's fairly rare) will do it too, but it seems snipers will not.

Resisti · Post by **Resisti** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:35 pm

Page 85 of the manual:

"Only infantry, mine clearing tanks, and combat engineers can remove mines. Engineers may be
in an adjacent hex and facing the mined hex to do so, while Infantry must be in the mine hex to
clear it. Mine removal is automatic at the end of the turn."

Page 90:

"Now, face your Engineers towards the mine,
or on them, and they will remove them in time. You can also “stack” more than one engineer
squad on one hex to clear the mines faster."

We must therefore assume that any infantry class unit can remove mines; at which pace, that's another story...

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:30 pm

HA! this is kind of funny, because while the quote in the manual might lead you to believe that crews will not clear them, I have another unit which is very surprising and definitely doesn't make any sense. That is, and I've mentioned it before on the forum, that the SKI TROOPS will not clear mines!!! A rude surprise for a Finnish force no doubt.

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:38 am

Originally posted by Lost Lieutenant:
I'm currently playing "Watchword Freedom" and am in the third scenario of the campaign. My mission is to take a trio of Russian-held bridges to support follow-on missions. This area is heavily defended - and heavily mined. I've got 2 "Minenram Pz-III"s, but they seem to be completely ineffective in clearing paths through minefields for me. They get through minefields just fine, but any troops/vehicles following them just run smack into the minefield. Is there some trick to clearing minefields with mineclearing tanks? If not, then I fail to see any real use for these tanks, and my attack is going to stall miserably. For the sake of my Joes and my sanity, please help!

There is, indeed, a trick to assault mineclearing.

First, you must indentify the field exists. That requires moving infantry, Recon, or Engineers forward *first*. lay smoke to cover your approach, and fine the mines. Once you find them, you start clearing.

Move up engineers and right click to point them at the mines you need cleared (one hex can be worked by a given engineer squad/mine tank at a time). Using the smoke for concealment, move your leading infantry, SLOWLY, one hex ata time, forward into the field. When they are in a hex with mines, that engineeers are working from adjacent, they will ALSO clear mines in that hex.

I prefer to move one infantry platoon forward as a skirmish line, right behind my recon, to enter the minefield and, one hex at a time, advance through it. The following infantry moves into the field and is supported by Engineers behind it.

IN one battle vs. the AI, I infintrated a full platoon forward of the mines and started clearing a series of entrenchements (under cover of smoke and with supporting artillery and mortar fire) while following infantry and engineers clear the field at the rate of one hex every other turn.

V-man

K G von Martinez · Post by **K G von Martinez** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:05 pm

Does it really make any difference if I run in a minefield one hex at a time or faster?

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:20 pm

Originally posted by kgvm:
Does it really make any difference if I run in a minefield one hex at a time or faster?

Yes, it does. Move slowly, live longer.

Bing

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:44 pm

I makes a difference in the number of casualties in a squad, and I get about 50% of my recon ACs through them without a problem. The other 50% are, however, useless scrap. The remaining crews, however, are able to get through with about 20% losses.

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:43 pm

Mines under the versions since the later beta 7.0 have become a lot more interesting than before.

Lots of times leg troops, armored cars and upon occasion a tank will go right thru a mined hex and nothing will happen, I will not even know the hex is mined. Then, semeingly at random, the third or fourth unit to traverse the hex WHAMMO!!!

If you have the time, get engrs out in front of your advance, have them move one hex at a time, they will almost always detect mines without setting them off.

Otherwise, buy cheap vehicles and run them ahead of your advance. Unfair? Well, anything is fair in love ... and war.

Bing

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:25 pm

V-man: Sound tactics, I use about the same. (recon, smoke, engineers and infantry)

But are you suggesting to clear the ENTIRE width of the minefield? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> OK, I'm splitting hairs here, but I usually clear two or three paths through it, one hex wide each. Quicker I'd say?

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 12:57 am

The problem I see with the one-hex-wide path is a bottleneck. Yes you can move through a spred out on the other side, but what's the opposition doing. With the AI it isn't much of an issue, but a human p[layer will pulverize that hex with everything available -- Art, AT, HE, MG, etc, ad nausium. It costs more to move through an occupied hex so it slows you down.

With a three- or four-hex opening, you can push through with less resistance.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]</p>

Capt. Pixel · Post by **Capt. Pixel** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:32 am

Doom - you mention barraging the minefield prior to mine removal units going in. My experience has been, that although a large caliber barrage can remove a few mines, I feel that artillery is best used against enemy positions rather than as a minefield buster. Or to fire covering smoke.

The premier minefield eradicators that I've identified are the flame-throwing vehicles. A unit like the JA Engineer tank or Flammwagen/16 can clear a minefield hex (10 mines) in one or two shots. This is great because then the hex is cleared of mines, marked and all your units are covered by the resulting 'smoke' as they move through.

Don Doom · Post by **Don Doom** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:42 am

Originally posted by Capt. Pixel:
Doom - you mention barraging the minefield prior to mine removal units going in. My experience has been, that although a large caliber barrage can remove a few mines, I feel that artillery is best used against enemy positions rather than as a minefield buster. Or to fire covering smoke.

The premier minefield eradicators that I've identified are the flame-throwing vehicles. A unit like the JA Engineer tank or Flammwagen/16 can clear a minefield hex (10 mines) in one or two shots. This is great because then the hex is cleared of mines, marked and all your units are covered by the resulting 'smoke' as they move through.

Afternoon.
It works the same way for artilliary except it takes three to four turns to do. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Then while you are hitting it you can move your troops up to a resonable distance from the mine field. I also find the AI and some people have units sitting next to the mine field, which the shells do a nice job of removing. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 2:42 am

Originally posted by Belisarius:
V-man: Sound tactics, I use about the same. (recon, smoke, engineers and infantry)

But are you suggesting to clear the ENTIRE width of the minefield? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> OK, I'm splitting hairs here, but I usually clear two or three paths through it, one hex wide each. Quicker I'd say?

I usually choose three points to breach the field, but while I create a single hex path at first, I then expand it to about three hexes so I can really move troops through.

I can count on the enemy figuring out where I am at some point, and having those extra hexes sometimes allows me to get through despite arty.

V-man

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 2:47 am

Originally posted by Capt. Pixel:

Doom - you mention barraging the minefield prior to mine removal units going in. My experience has been, that although a large caliber barrage can remove a few mines, I feel that artillery is best used against enemy positions rather than as a minefield buster. Or to fire covering smoke.

The arty does do ONE thing very well. It uncovers the mines. Even tanks will see them before driving into the field.

V-man